Penn Clerkship Discussion/Movement Forum

[Anonymous User]

We had a record good year for clerkships, much better than last year at bare minimum. IDK why everyone's bitching so much.

[Anonymous User]

We had a record good year for clerkships, much better than last year at bare minimum. IDK why everyone's bitching so much.

How do you know?

[Anonymous User]

What grades and credentials do I realistically need for EDNY/SDNY at Penn? How about DDC?

[Anonymous User]

What grades and credentials do I realistically need for EDNY/SDNY at Penn? How about DDC?

Bump.

[Anonymous User]

What grades and credentials do I realistically need for EDNY/SDNY at Penn? How about DDC?

Bump.

There just is no good answer to this question. Clerkship hiring is not like applying to law school. There is no number that automatically positions you for success. But if you must have an actual number, I’d say anyone with like a 3.75-3.8ish has a high enough GPA for it to not be an issue for most judges. Ideally you want it higher, though your GPA alone cannot make you a strong applicant in these districts unless you are basically summa. And many judges, even the very selective ones, pick clerks with mediocre grades from time to time but those applicants always have other plus factors. If you are depending on your GPA to differentiate you, then you are not one of those applicants. Again, there is no set list of what these plus factors are and it varies a ton from judge to judge. But some common examples I’ve seen would be military service, compelling life-story that is apparent, high-level collegiate athletics, meaningful publications or writing history, strong pre-law-school work experience, and those fancy scholarships like the Rhodes or the Marshall.

[Anonymous User]

My understanding is that 1-2 people a year get those competitive districts from Penn and they are almost all at or near the top of the class (as in 3.9+). That being said, plenty of summa and manga-level applicants from Penn strike out at those courts so the grades are not sufficient alone. The #1 or #2 person in the 3L class is going to SDNY and there is maybe one or two other people who got one of those districts as well in the 3L class.

[Anonymous User]

After reading through this thread, it seems to me that the recent couple rounds of the USNWR rankings have really done a number on Penn students. Insofar as rankings matter to clerkship hiring, they matter as of the time they got locked into judges' minds. The posters here are misguidedly focused on HYS outcomes as measuring sticks. But that's not how older attorneys (relevantly judges) see Penn. The more apt comparators are the Michigans and Virginias and Berkeleys. The HYS/CCN/MVP etc. breakdown seems way more useful here. Chicago and Virginia seem to have broken out of that paradigm (notably, along with Notre Dame/Vandy/Bama/Texas) due to ideological reasons. But without another distinguishing factor, you all should be thinking about Michigan more than Harvard.

[Anonymous User]

After reading through this thread, it seems to me that the recent couple rounds of the USNWR rankings have really done a number on Penn students. Insofar as rankings matter to clerkship hiring, they matter as of the time they got locked into judges' minds. The posters here are misguidedly focused on HYS outcomes as measuring sticks. But that's not how older attorneys (relevantly judges) see Penn. The more apt comparators are the Michigans and Virginias and Berkeleys. The HYS/CCN/MVP etc. breakdown seems way more useful here. Chicago and Virginia seem to have broken out of that paradigm (notably, along with Notre Dame/Vandy/Bama/Texas) due to ideological reasons. But without another distinguishing factor, you all should be thinking about Michigan more than Harvard.

Much of this thread is aspirational. It questions the administration’s decision not to hire connected faculty.

[Anonymous User]

Penn could do so much more to help students get clerkships. But they don't. Those who do get clerkships get them based on their own connections and networking.

So, 2Ls, network! Network! Network! Being on law review or having a 3.9 is not enough if you want more than EDPA or some random Hawaii state intermediate appellate court clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

After reading through this thread, it seems to me that the recent couple rounds of the USNWR rankings have really done a number on Penn students. Insofar as rankings matter to clerkship hiring, they matter as of the time they got locked into judges' minds. The posters here are misguidedly focused on HYS outcomes as measuring sticks. But that's not how older attorneys (relevantly judges) see Penn. The more apt comparators are the Michigans and Virginias and Berkeleys. The HYS/CCN/MVP etc. breakdown seems way more useful here. Chicago and Virginia seem to have broken out of that paradigm (notably, along with Notre Dame/Vandy/Bama/Texas) due to ideological reasons. But without another distinguishing factor, you all should be thinking about Michigan more than Harvard.

The fish rots from the head. Penn OCS tells students we’re like Harvard, shrugs when students don’t get HLS outcomes.

[Anonymous User]

For all of the Penn people reading this, I want to be real as someone who has gone through the process.

If you want SDNY/EDNY/DDC/CA2/CA9/DDC, you either need to be top 5% (~3.9+) and Law Review or have an insane hook (e.g. your parents are longtime friends of the judge).

Most other circuits, including CA3, barring a few judges who care strongly about diversity, are looking for top 10% or so (~ 3.8 ).

Want EDPA? Better be in the top quarter of the class or so. (~3.7)

That's the cold, hard truth.

[Anonymous User]

For all of the Penn people reading this, I want to be real as someone who has gone through the process.

If you want SDNY/EDNY/DDC/CA2/CA9/DDC, you either need to be top 5% (~3.9+) and Law Review or have an insane hook (e.g. your parents are longtime friends of the judge).

Most other circuits, including CA3, barring a few judges who care strongly about diversity, are looking for top 10% or so (~ 3.8 ).

Want EDPA? Better be in the top quarter of the class or so. (~3.7)

That's the cold, hard truth.

Not the case in the slightest bit. Consider better recommenders if you're out of those bands.

[Anonymous User]

Only like 2 people have NY/DC and they are tippy top of class.

[Anonymous User]

Let us see if we can revitalize this conversation, since OCS will likely only update the alumni clerkship listing in May of 2025.

Historically, around 20% of the class (50-60 people) end up with an Article III clerkship within a few years of graduation. Off the top of my head, for the class of '25 around twenty students have secured a clerkship, with more than one '25 in CA2 (all of whom are district), CA3, CA4, and CA11. We have a bunch of other individual placements, including at CA8 and the DC Cir.

I am confident I am missing information since our clerkship office is a black box. Penn students should not have to get information about movement during on-plan hiring by asking current students at peer law schools or browsing online forums. The remaining '25ers, upcoming '26ers, and alums have ended up with the worst of all worlds for the moment with this semi-interregnum. I hope Penn will show that it properly values clerkships by bringing in someone who is willing to overhaul our current process, but I am not holding my breath.

[Anonymous User]

This is where collegiality pays off, big time. You know that you have classmates who secured lucrative clerkships, as soon as next year. Maybe there were upperclassmen/women who you got to meet and are currently clerking for judges of interest. Be friendly to those people. You never know who might be able to help you, and who might be reviewing your application.

[Anonymous User]

Let us see if we can revitalize this conversation, since OCS will likely only update the alumni clerkship listing in May of 2025.

Historically, around 20% of the class (50-60 people) end up with an Article III clerkship within a few years of graduation. Off the top of my head, for the class of '25 around twenty students have secured a clerkship, with more than one '25 in CA2 (all of whom are district), CA3, CA4, and CA11. We have a bunch of other individual placements, including at CA8 and the DC Cir.

I am confident I am missing information since our clerkship office is a black box. Penn students should not have to get information about movement during on-plan hiring by asking current students at peer law schools or browsing online forums. The remaining '25ers, upcoming '26ers, and alums have ended up with the worst of all worlds for the moment with this semi-interregnum. I hope Penn will show that it properly values clerkships by bringing in someone who is willing to overhaul our current process, but I am not holding my breath.

While I agree that OCS needs an overhaul (especially in the clerkship department), everyone who gets one gets it without Chris's help. It's always nice to have more information (and there is a poorly-updated spreadsheet with basically every Penn Law clerk listed, available online) but why would knowing where other students placed help students who are currently applying? If you're interested which judges hire from Penn, that spreadsheet does a pretty good job.

[Anonymous User]

While I agree that OCS needs an overhaul (especially in the clerkship department), everyone who gets one gets it without Chris's help. It's always nice to have more information (and there is a poorly-updated spreadsheet with basically every Penn Law clerk listed, available online) but why would knowing where other students placed help students who are currently applying? If you're interested which judges hire from Penn, that spreadsheet does a pretty good job.

If the spreadsheet is already useful, wouldn’t it be even more valuable if it was more regularly updated? I don't think this is a principled position by OCS, given that some current students who secured clerkships early (before May of their 2L year) have their placements listed. By failing to update the spreadsheet, the system favors well-connected students or those involved in Penn organizations that *do* track this data in real-time. Regular updates would benefit all students and alumni:

• For judges or jurisdictions that heavily recruit from Penn or have informal (or even formal) "slots" for Penn students, the spreadsheet is the most reliable tool to track whether those positions remain open.
• While historical data (e.g., hiring patterns from 2006) is useful, recent hiring trends provide far more reliable information about current preferences.
• This is especially true for newly appointed judges or those hiring from Penn for the first time.
• Networking is essential in the clerkship game, both to get hired and to avoid judges that are bad bosses. People who have just successfully gone through the process have the most updated and accurate information, and are most likely to be helpful to current applicants. I think the people who would probably benefit the most are 2Ls who could ask current 3Ls who have done the legwork and would be happy to share.
• Additionally, there is an information gap: alumni have no way of knowing which current students have been hired, and vice versa.

This reflects a broader issue at Penn (one that is not unique): Everything is oriented toward the June hiring plan. But, of course, judicial hiring on both sides of the aisle increasingly happens pre-plan for 2Ls and in the fall or spring for 3Ls. In fact, during plan hiring, Penn students face unique disadvantages in standing out from a flood of HYS applications. Even if OCS must formally adhere to the plan (a justification that becomes irrelevant for 3Ls applying off-plan), there is no reason its resources cannot adapt to the realities of current clerkship hiring practices.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a recent alum and current clerk. I loved my time at Penn Law, but was disappointed by the Clerkships Office and Penn's weak support for clerkships. And while I am thankful and grateful for my clerkship, Penn itself as an institution played no role in getting it. If anyone from the administrator is reading this, here are my tips:
1) Hire a new clerkship advisor who is full-time, has clerked recently, and genuinely cares. UChicago, UVA, and Cornell have this; why can't we?
2) Hire faculty based, in part, on which applicants have clerked for desirable judges across the political spectrum. I'd rather have a professor who clerked for CA9 and SDNY and can call their judge about solid students over someone with more published law journal articles who checks certain boxes.
3) Set up a peer mentorship program in which 3Ls and alums who recently obtained clerkships are matched up with a 2L going through the process to provide guidance.
4) Permit students to serve as judicial externs for more than the bare minimum of 4 credits to allow them to forge relationships with judges and clerks. The Clerkship Director should be responsible for the judicial externship program to enhance ties with chambers.
5) Faculty need to be more invested in clerkship hiring. Many are downright unhelpful and think writing a one-page letter is a major favor. Even fewer are willing to call chambers for an applicant.
6) The Dean should be personally propping up the top students in each class and making calls to judges for them. Penn is already fighting an uphill battle against HYS on-plan and students need every advantage they can get.
7) In a similar vein the Dean should be working to foster connections with judges to enhance Penn's image with them. Specifically, she should let judges know about Penn's rise in the US News Rankings, about new initiatives, and just generally keep in touch with judges so Penn comes to mind.
Penn needs to do a much better job when it comes to off-plan hiring. On-plan hiring is very much skewed in favor of HYS and CCN. You have to be an "insider" to know who hires 2Ls off-plan, and who hires 3Ls during the academic year. But this information isn't terribly hard to figure out, and it is critical for students to know.