Grades at Y Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

Huh, interesting! I was in the top 10 of Parrillo's class and didn't get an email! (But was probably tenth, so perhaps he sends it out to the top 5 or something). Among my friend group, literally all of them have all Honors grades. That may have been a function of easier pandemic grading, but it's part of what's driving the anxiety!

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

I don't disagree with this information, but it's more true of clerkships generally than feeder clerkships specifically. Some justices (not naming any names) get exercised about Ps and feeder judges know that. One P isn't game over. Just be aware that the Yale SCOTUS clerk with 3+ Ps anecdote is very, very uncommon.

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

I don't disagree with this information, but it's more true of clerkships generally than feeder clerkships specifically. Some justices (not naming any names) get exercised about Ps and feeder judges know that. One P isn't game over. Just be aware that the Yale SCOTUS clerk with 3+ Ps anecdote is very, very uncommon.

Thanks so much--is it safe to say that one P is close to game over?

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

I don't disagree with this information, but it's more true of clerkships generally than feeder clerkships specifically. Some justices (not naming any names) get exercised about Ps and feeder judges know that. One P isn't game over. Just be aware that the Yale SCOTUS clerk with 3+ Ps anecdote is very, very uncommon.

Thanks so much--is it safe to say that one P is close to game over?

I wouldn't rush to that extreme, but I also wouldn't recommend collecting more. Be careful picking classes, avoid the scrooge profs, and take the paper options when you can. SCOTUS is a long shot even with a clean transcript; without it, you'll need to find other ways to insert your name into the best-student-at-Yale conversation. My advice: Get off TLS and channel your anxiety into motivation to go the extra mile studying. Good luck!

-A former SCOTUS clerk

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

I don't disagree with this information, but it's more true of clerkships generally than feeder clerkships specifically. Some justices (not naming any names) get exercised about Ps and feeder judges know that. One P isn't game over. Just be aware that the Yale SCOTUS clerk with 3+ Ps anecdote is very, very uncommon.

Thanks so much--is it safe to say that one P is close to game over?

I wouldn't rush to that extreme, but I also wouldn't recommend collecting more. Be careful picking classes, avoid the scrooge profs, and take the paper options when you can. SCOTUS is a long shot even with a clean transcript; without it, you'll need to find other ways to insert your name into the best-student-at-Yale conversation. My advice: Get off TLS and channel your anxiety into motivation to go the extra mile studying. Good luck!

-A former SCOTUS clerk

Not OP, but in a similar situation. Is the above advice about having many top exams outside of admin true? Ie will feeders/Justices try to look beyond the H and see if a Y student was in the top five of their classes or something? (Or do they mostly just ride on the strength of recs?)

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

I don't disagree with this information, but it's more true of clerkships generally than feeder clerkships specifically. Some justices (not naming any names) get exercised about Ps and feeder judges know that. One P isn't game over. Just be aware that the Yale SCOTUS clerk with 3+ Ps anecdote is very, very uncommon.

Thanks so much--is it safe to say that one P is close to game over?

I wouldn't rush to that extreme, but I also wouldn't recommend collecting more. Be careful picking classes, avoid the scrooge profs, and take the paper options when you can. SCOTUS is a long shot even with a clean transcript; without it, you'll need to find other ways to insert your name into the best-student-at-Yale conversation. My advice: Get off TLS and channel your anxiety into motivation to go the extra mile studying. Good luck!

-A former SCOTUS clerk

Not OP, but in a similar situation. Is the above advice about having many top exams outside of admin true? Ie will feeders/Justices try to look beyond the H and see if a Y student was in the top five of their classes or something? (Or do they mostly just ride on the strength of recs?)

Yes, that advice is accurate.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks so much for this. I've gotten a lot of "don't sweat it" arguments but I find it hard to believe because a lot of my classmates do indeed have all Hs. And just out of curiosity--did any of your recommenders tell you what is considered at the top of the "Admin H" range?

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

I don't disagree with this information, but it's more true of clerkships generally than feeder clerkships specifically. Some justices (not naming any names) get exercised about Ps and feeder judges know that. One P isn't game over. Just be aware that the Yale SCOTUS clerk with 3+ Ps anecdote is very, very uncommon.

Thanks so much--is it safe to say that one P is close to game over?

I wouldn't rush to that extreme, but I also wouldn't recommend collecting more. Be careful picking classes, avoid the scrooge profs, and take the paper options when you can. SCOTUS is a long shot even with a clean transcript; without it, you'll need to find other ways to insert your name into the best-student-at-Yale conversation. My advice: Get off TLS and channel your anxiety into motivation to go the extra mile studying. Good luck!

-A former SCOTUS clerk

Not OP, but in a similar situation. Is the above advice about having many top exams outside of admin true? Ie will feeders/Justices try to look beyond the H and see if a Y student was in the top five of their classes or something? (Or do they mostly just ride on the strength of recs?)

Yes, that advice is accurate.

What about the profs that don’t rank exams? My understanding was that many at YLS do not.

[Anonymous User]

I have heard anecdotally that Parrillo sends emails to the top ten or so people in the class letting them know their ranking, so the ideal would probably be getting one of those letters. But again, just getting an H in Admin is I think a pretty big deal for jobs in DC.

I think one important thing that might ease your mind a bit re: grades is that actually getting a professor to pick up the phone for you and sing your praises seems (at least from what I hear from 3Ls) to be the most important thing to have to support your application, and it sounds like you have that on lock. They can do a lot to make up for whatever minor flaws you might have in your application (e.g., a couple of Ps, no YLJ). I would also query how many people actually have all Hs, or will by the time people apply on-plan--at least among my friends, most people have picked up a P or two by now.

I don't disagree with this information, but it's more true of clerkships generally than feeder clerkships specifically. Some justices (not naming any names) get exercised about Ps and feeder judges know that. One P isn't game over. Just be aware that the Yale SCOTUS clerk with 3+ Ps anecdote is very, very uncommon.

Thanks so much--is it safe to say that one P is close to game over?

I wouldn't rush to that extreme, but I also wouldn't recommend collecting more. Be careful picking classes, avoid the scrooge profs, and take the paper options when you can. SCOTUS is a long shot even with a clean transcript; without it, you'll need to find other ways to insert your name into the best-student-at-Yale conversation. My advice: Get off TLS and channel your anxiety into motivation to go the extra mile studying. Good luck!

-A former SCOTUS clerk

Not OP, but in a similar situation. Is the above advice about having many top exams outside of admin true? Ie will feeders/Justices try to look beyond the H and see if a Y student was in the top five of their classes or something? (Or do they mostly just ride on the strength of recs?)

Yes, that advice is accurate.

What about the profs that don’t rank exams? My understanding was that many at YLS do not.

More do than let on. They may not tell a student, but they'll tell a justice if asked. Some professors truly don't keep track. Justices discount their opinions accordingly.