How Will Judges View Credit/Fail Grades? Forum

[jackshunger]

You are way overthinking this. The vast majority of judges are really not going to care, as long as the grades that you do have are good. Someone who’s hiring early already isn’t as worried about an applicant’s “proven track record” or they’d wait to see post-1L grades. And the occasional judge that might care - you can’t plan for every judicial idiosyncrasy.

In any case, if you have a choice about whether to get letter grades or not, and you feel this strongly about it, then pick the letter grades. If you don’t have the choice, there’s no point in worrying about it (and I’m sure that the grading policy will be marked on your transcript).

You’re a 1L who wants to apply, right? Why are you so certain that all judges see this the way that you do?

I am a 1L that will be applying and I'd be taking classes for credit regardless because I'm 27 years old and have no family to take care of or any other external factors impacting people negatively in these dark times.

If I were overthinking things, or acting like a crazed gunner, I'd be encouraging people to take classes CR/F to try and boost my own chances, but I'm not because I feel like giving good advice amongst a mass of overly optimistic wrong advice, much of which is likely to be deleterious to students like myself were they to listen to it.


In a perfect world, there would be mandatory P/F, so that this entire effed up semester could just be tossed in the trash and people judged on fair semesters. Since that isn't happening, if you want to remain in the hunt for competitive positions, you need as much information available to the judges as possible, assuming that you dont already have killer recs or some other factor (in which case you dont need to read this forum anyway).

Just go look through the masses of prior threads about people wondering why they cant get interviews at judge chambers despite applying to 200 chambers and having good grades at T-14 schools - its a competitive process and taking classes for credit is kneecapping yourself unnecessarily.

Also, given that the legal market is likely to at least slow down considerably, if not collapse entirely, clerkships are going to be even more desirable than before as people search for a safe harbor from the economy. Taking classes for credit is not going to help you when there are going to be even more people applying.

[nixy]

It’s really not the black mark you think it is, as people who have clerked are telling you. But in any case, good luck with your applications.

[lavarman84]

So then shouldn’t I just take CR/ No Cr if I have 3 semesters of good to very good grades from HLS? I have hard classes this semester and will likely have a lower GPA then my first 3 semesters (none of which I took a particularly easy course load though). I don’t really have a good chance at SCOTUS, so if I can take the semester to just cruise without hurting my career prospects it’d be nice

My advice is to go for it and enjoy it.

[lavarman84]

It’s really not the black mark you think it is, as people who have clerked are telling you. But in any case, good luck with your applications.

I'm getting a kick out of the 1Lsplaining.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Hell hath no insecurity like a T6 1L with good-but-not-great grades

[jackshunger]

I'm not particularly concerned about my own grades (they are high enough that taking classes P/F would benefit me); I'd take classes for grades regardless.

I just think all prior posters are being way too optimistic and a good bit of healthy pessimism and transcript maximization (for people that are not actually being unduly impacted by coronavirus aside from having to hang out inside all day) is a good idea. This is all speculative in an unprecedented time.

[nixy]

And I think you’re attributing your own (overly competitive?) outlook to judges without any evidence that, under these circumstances, more grades are necessarily better than fewer grades.

For instance, what if someone takes the letter grades and then does worse this semester? Wouldn’t transcript maximization say that it would be better to have fewer, better grades than more, worse grades?

[jackshunger]

And I think you’re attributing your own (overly competitive?) outlook to judges without any evidence that, under these circumstances, more grades are necessarily better than fewer grades.

For instance, what if someone takes the letter grades and then does worse this semester? Wouldn’t transcript maximization say that it would be better to have fewer, better grades than more, worse grades?

You could evaluate the person with lower grades and the person without grades roughly the same then; the same exact justifications are available for both and as you've said, judges should be understanding this semester.

If you are being pessimistic, like I am, the only way to get a boost in what I think is a more competitive market is to take graded classes this semester and try maintaining your grades.

[Anonymous User]

I am at Harvard, which is currently letting us choose whether to take any or all of our classes pass/fail or the normal system. I think this is different than SLS and Cornell that will make everyone be pass/fail. Just a 2L, but I am thinking that Judges (especially feeders and more competitive COA and big name district judges) will look at classes that were taken ~optionally~ as Credit/no credit as not great, and perhaps even like a regular P, absent extenuating circumstances. At least that’s how I would see it. I get the feeling this new system is the worst of all possible outcomes since corp folks or 3Ls with everything lined up will likely the credit no credit option, and I assume this will just tighten the curve since all the people gunning for Hs will take the grades option

I have no idea how most judges will look at this, but my semi-competitive COA judge said her first instinct would be to treat a CR (from HLS, anyways) as a P. If other judges think the same way, that would mean that unless you think you're at risk of an LP, you have only upside by taking the graded version.

[ksm6969]

I am at Harvard, which is currently letting us choose whether to take any or all of our classes pass/fail or the normal system. I think this is different than SLS and Cornell that will make everyone be pass/fail. Just a 2L, but I am thinking that Judges (especially feeders and more competitive COA and big name district judges) will look at classes that were taken ~optionally~ as Credit/no credit as not great, and perhaps even like a regular P, absent extenuating circumstances. At least that’s how I would see it. I get the feeling this new system is the worst of all possible outcomes since corp folks or 3Ls with everything lined up will likely the credit no credit option, and I assume this will just tighten the curve since all the people gunning for Hs will take the grades option

I have no idea how most judges will look at this, but my semi-competitive COA judge said her first instinct would be to treat a CR (from HLS, anyways) as a P. If other judges think the same way, that would mean that unless you think you're at risk of an LP, you have only upside by taking the graded version.

Yeah, in the abstract sure, but in context if you have a transcript where every grade is an H or a DS (which is not uncommon for a semi-competitive COA judge), then I doubt the CR's will be treated as P's. They will probably be treated mentally as whatever the most common grade is on that persons transcript. But I do think HLS is in an odd situation where often the metric is "How many Hs did this guy have?" rather than "what is this guys numerical GPA?" In which case you just want the most number of H's.

However, this is only true in the short term. In the long term, getting suma is probably more important, so might be some short term tradeoff of getting "less H's" with a long term tradeoff of having a higher GPA for suma / cum laude honors.

If you have a transcript full of H's'/DS's, and something about this semester has put you in a position where you are much less likely to get all H's, then I'd just go CR/F honestly. If you are asked about it, you just say you volunteered at your local hospital during the pandemic, or cooked and delivered food to elderly vulnerable people or whatever, and a judge is not going to penalize you for it.

[Anonymous User]

It's an interesting dilemma, also, for schools that haven't made the decision yet. If you think you're in a position to do well this semester you'd obviously benefit from having grades, but it's a dubious position to not sign on when many of your classmates support the policy. Of course maybe this is just basic peer pressure...

[UVA2B]

No one here or anywhere can prognosticate how this national health crisis will be handled in the years following these unprecedented times. If you are confident you can perform well on finals, take the grades and run with relatively minimal risk. If you need to rely on CR/F grades because you could be affected by this, take it and be able to explain why you were disadvantaged given the public health crisis.

This decision shouldn't be difficult. If you're confident you can perform well, avail yourself of the grading system. If you're not confident, take this lifeline while prepared to explain why you chose this path in this highly unique situation.

[nixy]

(And if you don’t have a choice because your school decided for you, nothing you can do and no point worrying about it.)

[Anonymous User]

Harvard is now mandatory Credit/Fail. Feels good man.

-Concerned 2L

[Anonymous User]

I'm assuming that for schools that went mandatory Credit/No Credit, judges will understand that the CR semester is not unique to the applicant. Or should applicants put some sort of description on the law grade sheet that all CR grades were given to everyone that semester?

[nixy]

Check with your school's registrar, but I'd bet money that the school will indicate on the transcript that everyone was given CR/NCR that semester. If you're filling out OSCAR's grade sheet rather than providing transcripts, yeah, I would probably note somewhere (if possible - I forget what the form you fill out looks like) that the school went to CR/NCR that semester.