Let's Talk 2d Circuit! (2015-16 & beyond) Forum

[pertristis]

I don't think Livingston has a strong preference for work experience, or at least as strong as someone like Katzmann or Jacobs--I know she has hired at least one current 2L at my school who will clerk for her in 2015-16.

Do you know what kind of grades this person had? Like super gunner? I've heard from several people that she's a huge grades snob, even for the Second Circuit, and pretty much doesn't hire outside of HYS. Any truth to that?

Also, how hard would it be for someone in the mid-T14 (not HYS) to get a Second Circuit clerkship?

Consider the few judges outside NYC. Someone I know from lower-T14 got a Second Circuit with a non-NYC judge.

It's not that I want to prestige whore all over the place about NYC or non-NYC. It's just that my girlfriend is going to be working in the city, and we've been talking about us moving out there post-graduation for a while now. Second Circuit in NYC would be nice, but I'd probably take SDNY over non-NYC Second Circuit. Well, that is assuming that SDNY would even have me, of course.

SDNY is almost as picky as the Second; many SDNY alumni go directly into clerkships in the Second. Depending on grades, you may have more luck in EDNY, although they're also picky.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting. Do you by any chance go to Columbia? I should have said that I heard she doesn't hire outside of HYSColumbia, given her prof gig at Columbia and all. Like I think she literally has only ever hired one person not from HYSC, and even then the people she hired from HYSC were like SCOTUS potential kids. I did really well first semester 1L, so if my second semester grades are anything similar, my grades should place me in one of the top spots at my school - but I don't go to HYSColumbia. Guess it can never hurt to try, but it looks like I should focus on landing a SDNY gig first and then trying to use that to boost my chances for a Second Circuit clerkship in NYC? Is that generally the easier/safer way to go about the application cycle? If so, does anyone have recommendations for SDNY judges that have a good track record with Second Circuit judges? Sorry if there is a separate SDNY thread.

Livingston has hired from UVA more than once, and it's my understanding that she hasn't insisted on SCOTUS-quality credentials. Still highly qualified, though, law reviewing managing board and all that.

[Doorkeeper]

It's not that I want to prestige whore all over the place about NYC or non-NYC. It's just that my girlfriend is going to be working in the city, and we've been talking about us moving out there post-graduation for a while now. Second Circuit in NYC would be nice, but I'd probably take SDNY over non-NYC Second Circuit. Well, that is assuming that SDNY would even have me, of course.

If proximity to NYC is what you care about, then don't overlook the 3rd Circuit judges in Newark. It's like a 30 minute commute by train.

[Doorkeeper]

Interesting. Do you by any chance go to Columbia? I should have said that I heard she doesn't hire outside of HYSColumbia, given her prof gig at Columbia and all. Like I think she literally has only ever hired one person not from HYSC, and even then the people she hired from HYSC were like SCOTUS potential kids. I did really well first semester 1L, so if my second semester grades are anything similar, my grades should place me in one of the top spots at my school - but I don't go to HYSColumbia. Guess it can never hurt to try, but it looks like I should focus on landing a SDNY gig first and then trying to use that to boost my chances for a Second Circuit clerkship in NYC? Is that generally the easier/safer way to go about the application cycle? If so, does anyone have recommendations for SDNY judges that have a good track record with Second Circuit judges? Sorry if there is a separate SDNY thread.

If you're really one of the top students at a non-HYSC T14, then you shouldn't have a problem getting a CoA gig and you're definitely competitive for 2/9. Plus, remember that not all of the 12 2nd Cir judges in NYC are similar to Livingston in how they hire.

[Arbiter213]

If you're really one of the top students at a non-HYSC T14, then you shouldn't have a problem getting a CoA gig

You're really understating how hard it is to get a CoA clerkship.

[Doorkeeper]

If you're really one of the top students at a non-HYSC T14, then you shouldn't have a problem getting a CoA gig

You're really understating how hard it is to get a CoA clerkship.

OP said "one of the top students". I'm interpreting that to mean in the top 5 or so at a non-HYSC T14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but such students can get CoA (also assuming all things equal, such as professor recommendations and the like). I realize that the particular school (NYU/UVA vs. Cornell or Georgetown) would matter here as well.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think Livingston has a strong preference for work experience, or at least as strong as someone like Katzmann or Jacobs--I know she has hired at least one current 2L at my school who will clerk for her in 2015-16.

Do you know what kind of grades this person had? Like super gunner? I've heard from several people that she's a huge grades snob, even for the Second Circuit, and pretty much doesn't hire outside of HYS. Any truth to that?

Also, how hard would it be for someone in the mid-T14 (not HYS) to get a Second Circuit clerkship?

Consider the few judges outside NYC. Someone I know from lower-T14 got a Second Circuit with a non-NYC judge.

It's not that I want to prestige whore all over the place about NYC or non-NYC. It's just that my girlfriend is going to be working in the city, and we've been talking about us moving out there post-graduation for a while now. Second Circuit in NYC would be nice, but I'd probably take SDNY over non-NYC Second Circuit. Well, that is assuming that SDNY would even have me, of course.

Just out of curiosity but how is it less prestigious to clerk for a judge on the 2nd Circuit who happens to be located outside the state than for one on the 2nd Circuit in NYC? Regardless, if you are looking for proximity to the city then I echo what someone else said about 3rd Circuit, too.

[Anonymous User]

Just out of curiosity but how is it less prestigious to clerk for a judge on the 2nd Circuit who happens to be located outside the state than for one on the 2nd Circuit in NYC? Regardless, if you are looking for proximity to the city then I echo what someone else said about 3rd Circuit, too.

It's not.

Presumably more potential clerks want to live in the city, so all else being equal (i.e., no adjustment for feeder status, etc.), the CoA judges in the city may be somewhat (if only marginally) more competitive. And in some deformed minds, more competitive = more desirable. But of course all these positions are insanely competitive. This is truly the finest of hair-splitting for the most dementedly prestige-obssessed.

[Anonymous User]

If you're really one of the top students at a non-HYSC T14, then you shouldn't have a problem getting a CoA gig

You're really understating how hard it is to get a CoA clerkship.

OP said "one of the top students". I'm interpreting that to mean in the top 5 or so at a non-HYSC T14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but such students can get CoA (also assuming all things equal, such as professor recommendations and the like). I realize that the particular school (NYU/UVA vs. Cornell or Georgetown) would matter here as well.

OP here. I don't want to get ahead of myself here, since I don't have my grades back yet. Here's to hoping that second semester grades are similar to first.

I know Livingston has sent to SCOTUS and Bristow before, so it seems like a really long shot. I'll probably target SDNY/EDNY first and then try to leverage that into a Second Circuit if all goes well with grades, or else try for Third Circuit in Newark. Am I underestimating the difficulty of landing a Third Circuit clerkship? Also, should I apply broadly to all SDNY judges, or is there a list of good ones to target (e.g., due to a history of feeding to Second Circuit judges)?

[Anonymous User]

Can you really draw a correlation between NYC and non-NYC selectivity when there are so few 2d Cir. judges outside of NYC? Guido Calabresi is obviously more selective than most of the NY judges. Wesley and Cabranes also seem to be more selective. There are NY judges that don't seem to be quite as insanely selective.

[Anonymous User]

From what I've been told by my clerkship office, the New Haven–based 2d Circuit judges tend to choose heavily from Yale.

Are 3d Circuit judges less selective than the 2d? Probably. Are they still very selective? Yes.

[Anonymous User]

Just out of curiosity but how is it less prestigious to clerk for a judge on the 2nd Circuit who happens to be located outside the state than for one on the 2nd Circuit in NYC? Regardless, if you are looking for proximity to the city then I echo what someone else said about 3rd Circuit, too.

It's not.

Presumably more potential clerks want to live in the city, so all else being equal (i.e., no adjustment for feeder status, etc.), the CoA judges in the city may be somewhat (if only marginally) more competitive. And in some deformed minds, more competitive = more desirable. But of course all these positions are insanely competitive. This is truly the finest of hair-splitting for the most dementedly prestige-obssessed.

Sorry, but this is a gross misstatement, at least at my school (HYS). Preftige aside, the facts bear out a clear difference. The top kids at my school simply do not bother applying to non-NYC Second Circuit judges. Sure they apply to "2/9/DC" but that actually translates into "NYC/SF/LA/DC" (plus maybe a handful of feeder judges elsewhere depending on how willing the individual is to live elsewhere). If they don't get something in NYC, they'll look for something in SF/LA/DC, not non-NYC Second Circuit.

[Anonymous User]

From what I've been told by my clerkship office, the New Haven–based 2d Circuit judges tend to choose heavily from Yale.

Yeah but just as Boston-based 1st Circuit judges tend to choose heavily from Harvard. People who already live in Boston/New Haven are more likely to want to live in Boston/New Haven. It's a self-selection thing.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry, but this is a gross misstatement, at least at my school (HYS). Preftige aside, the facts bear out a clear difference. The top kids at my school simply do not bother applying to non-NYC Second Circuit judges. Sure they apply to "2/9/DC" but that actually translates into "NYC/SF/LA/DC" (plus maybe a handful of feeder judges elsewhere depending on how willing the individual is to live elsewhere). If they don't get something in NYC, they'll look for something in SF/LA/DC, not non-NYC Second Circuit.

I hate this profession and all of those in it. Christ.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry, but this is a gross misstatement, at least at my school (HYS). Preftige aside, the facts bear out a clear difference. The top kids at my school simply do not bother applying to non-NYC Second Circuit judges. Sure they apply to "2/9/DC" but that actually translates into "NYC/SF/LA/DC" (plus maybe a handful of feeder judges elsewhere depending on how willing the individual is to live elsewhere). If they don't get something in NYC, they'll look for something in SF/LA/DC, not non-NYC Second Circuit.

I hate this profession and all of those in it. Christ.

Well it's simply a matter of where people want to live, which is totally understandable. Barring special personal circumstances, people want to live in one of those cities. The law students applying for clerkships are especially interested in NYC and DC, for obvious reasons. IMO, wanting to clerk in the major cities because you want to live there is at least more legit and respectable than wanting to clerk in a 2/9 secondary location just for the sake of saying that you're clerking on so and so circuit. Sure some people want to clerk in a 2/9 secondary location for a specific judge, like Calabresi, but no one is going to say that Calabresi is indistinguishable from other New Haven judges right? Just my two cents.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry, but this is a gross misstatement, at least at my school (HYS). Preftige aside, the facts bear out a clear difference. The top kids at my school simply do not bother applying to non-NYC Second Circuit judges. Sure they apply to "2/9/DC" but that actually translates into "NYC/SF/LA/DC" (plus maybe a handful of feeder judges elsewhere depending on how willing the individual is to live elsewhere). If they don't get something in NYC, they'll look for something in SF/LA/DC, not non-NYC Second Circuit.

I hate this profession and all of those in it. Christ.

Well it's simply a matter of where people want to live, which is totally understandable. Barring special personal circumstances, people want to live in one of those cities. The law students applying for clerkships are especially interested in NYC and DC, for obvious reasons. IMO, wanting to clerk in the major cities because you want to live there is at least more legit and respectable than wanting to clerk in a 2/9 secondary location just for the sake of saying that you're clerking on so and so circuit. Sure some people want to clerk in a 2/9 secondary location for a specific judge, like Calabresi, but no one is going to say that Calabresi is indistinguishable from other New Haven judges right? Just my two cents.

Quoted for certain truths, from an alum who graduated from a lower T14. Look, let's be honest: if you have the grades to clerk for the Second Circuit, you want to live in NYC, not Vermont (sorry, Judge Hall) or Geneseo (sorry, Judge Wesley). You did the hard work, and if they're not a feeder judge or a Yale-centric judge (read: pretty much every judge in CT), you want the big reward. Too bad you won't really have the money to spend on it or the freedom to go hog wild in the NYC bars you dreamed about for that year... but if you worked hard enough to get those grades, surely you're smart enough to delay gratification.

With that said, saying "I clerked on the Second Circuit" is going to look good even if you were in the deepest depths of rural upstate New York, so I think people who make that distinction are snobs who can afford to do so.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry, but this is a gross misstatement, at least at my school (HYS). Preftige aside, the facts bear out a clear difference. The top kids at my school simply do not bother applying to non-NYC Second Circuit judges. Sure they apply to "2/9/DC" but that actually translates into "NYC/SF/LA/DC" (plus maybe a handful of feeder judges elsewhere depending on how willing the individual is to live elsewhere). If they don't get something in NYC, they'll look for something in SF/LA/DC, not non-NYC Second Circuit.

I hate this profession and all of those in it. Christ.

Well it's simply a matter of where people want to live, which is totally understandable. Barring special personal circumstances, people want to live in one of those cities. The law students applying for clerkships are especially interested in NYC and DC, for obvious reasons. IMO, wanting to clerk in the major cities because you want to live there is at least more legit and respectable than wanting to clerk in a 2/9 secondary location just for the sake of saying that you're clerking on so and so circuit. Sure some people want to clerk in a 2/9 secondary location for a specific judge, like Calabresi, but no one is going to say that Calabresi is indistinguishable from other New Haven judges right? Just my two cents.

Quoted for certain truths, from an alum who graduated from a lower T14. Look, let's be honest: if you have the grades to clerk for the Second Circuit, you want to live in NYC, not Vermont (sorry, Judge Hall) or Geneseo (sorry, Judge Wesley). You did the hard work, and if they're not a feeder judge or a Yale-centric judge (read: pretty much every judge in CT), you want the big reward. Too bad you won't really have the money to spend on it or the freedom to go hog wild in the NYC bars you dreamed about for that year... but if you worked hard enough to get those grades, surely you're smart enough to delay gratification.

With that said, saying "I clerked on the Second Circuit" is going to look good even if you were in the deepest depths of rural upstate New York, so I think people who make that distinction are snobs who can afford to do so.

There are those of us out there who have no desire to live in NYC, shockingly, and applied to specifically non-NYC 2nd Circuit judges. Perks include being able to afford rent and food while still heading into the city a few days a month for oral arguments.

[Citizen Genet]

There are those of us out there who have no desire to live in NYC, shockingly, and applied to specifically non-NYC 2nd Circuit judges. Perks include being able to afford rent and food while still heading into the city a few days a month for oral arguments.

With hotel covered and a per diem.

[Anonymous User]

There are those of us out there who have no desire to live in NYC, shockingly, and applied to specifically non-NYC 2nd Circuit judges. Perks include being able to afford rent and food while still heading into the city a few days a month for oral arguments.

I'm happy for you man - seriously, no eye rolls here - but that is so not the point. It's trivial to say that some people do not fall into the general rule, as if that somehow undermines the general rule. This is like saying, in response to a claim that YLS is generally regarded as the top law school, "Some of us don't want to live in New Haven and didn't even apply." It's a valid statement but it misses the point.

[Anonymous User]

There are those of us out there who have no desire to live in NYC, shockingly, and applied to specifically non-NYC 2nd Circuit judges. Perks include being able to afford rent and food while still heading into the city a few days a month for oral arguments.

I'm happy for you man - seriously, no eye rolls here - but that is so not the point. It's trivial to say that some people do not fall into the general rule, as if that somehow undermines the general rule. This is like saying, in response to a claim that YLS is generally regarded as the top law school, "Some of us don't want to live in New Haven and didn't even apply." It's a valid statement but it misses the point.

Fair enough. I forget now what the point was but, fair enough.

[Anonymous User]

Just out of curiosity but how is it less prestigious to clerk for a judge on the 2nd Circuit who happens to be located outside the state than for one on the 2nd Circuit in NYC? Regardless, if you are looking for proximity to the city then I echo what someone else said about 3rd Circuit, too.

It's not.

Presumably more potential clerks want to live in the city, so all else being equal (i.e., no adjustment for feeder status, etc.), the CoA judges in the city may be somewhat (if only marginally) more competitive. And in some deformed minds, more competitive = more desirable. But of course all these positions are insanely competitive. This is truly the finest of hair-splitting for the most dementedly prestige-obssessed.

Sorry, but this is a gross misstatement, at least at my school (HYS). Preftige aside, the facts bear out a clear difference. The top kids at my school simply do not bother applying to non-NYC Second Circuit judges. Sure they apply to "2/9/DC" but that actually translates into "NYC/SF/LA/DC" (plus maybe a handful of feeder judges elsewhere depending on how willing the individual is to live elsewhere). If they don't get something in NYC, they'll look for something in SF/LA/DC, not non-NYC Second Circuit.

Gross misstatement? Come on, now.

As I understood it, the question wasn't about whether some top kids at your school don't bother applying to some non-NYC non-feeder judges. Of course there are those kids. There are kids who apply according to all kinds of preferences, and urban preference is one of the biggest. There are kids with top-flight grades at top-flight schools who just apply to a very small group of judges. There are kids who only apply in D.C. There are kids who only apply in California. There are some (I was not one, but I know several who were) who don't formally apply at all but are invited to interview and get offers on-the-spot because the judge called a professor or a dean and asked for a name of just one top student who hasn't been spoken for yet. Since big coastal cities are probably more desirable to more young people, I wouldn't be surprised if CoA judges in big coastal cities on average get somewhat larger numbers of applications than judges in the same circuits who aren't in those cities, though all of them surely get huge numbers of applications wherever they are.

The question, though, wasn't about people's preferences; it was "how is it less prestigious?"

This isn't sour grapes talking. I applied in NYC, Newark, and CT, and I am clerking 2d Cir. in NYC. I didn't want to go to Vermont myself, and I didn't apply. But I still believe the correct answer to the question "how is it less prestigious to clerk for Judge Hall or Judge Pooler than for any 2d Cir judge in NYC?" is "It isn't." At least not in the eyes of enough people who matter that it's worth caring about.

EDIT: Also, the point alluded to or implied several times already about individual judges is probably the most important point. The reputational/prestige differences between judges on whatever circuit is bigger than any repetitional/prestige difference between judges collectively according to their locations within the circuit. For most people who are likely to ever look at your resume, 2d Cir is 2d Cir, period. For some people who will look at it, 2d Cir judge X means something different than 2d Cir judge Y. But the notion you'd be taking some sort of diminishment of prestige by the fact of a 2d Cir judge not being in NYC is laughable, IMO.

[Anonymous User]

Just out of curiosity but how is it less prestigious to clerk for a judge on the 2nd Circuit who happens to be located outside the state than for one on the 2nd Circuit in NYC? Regardless, if you are looking for proximity to the city then I echo what someone else said about 3rd Circuit, too.

It's not.

Presumably more potential clerks want to live in the city, so all else being equal (i.e., no adjustment for feeder status, etc.), the CoA judges in the city may be somewhat (if only marginally) more competitive. And in some deformed minds, more competitive = more desirable. But of course all these positions are insanely competitive. This is truly the finest of hair-splitting for the most dementedly prestige-obssessed.

Sorry, but this is a gross misstatement, at least at my school (HYS). Preftige aside, the facts bear out a clear difference. The top kids at my school simply do not bother applying to non-NYC Second Circuit judges. Sure they apply to "2/9/DC" but that actually translates into "NYC/SF/LA/DC" (plus maybe a handful of feeder judges elsewhere depending on how willing the individual is to live elsewhere). If they don't get something in NYC, they'll look for something in SF/LA/DC, not non-NYC Second Circuit.

Gross misstatement? Come on, now.

As I understood it, the question wasn't about whether some top kids at your school don't bother applying to some non-NYC non-feeder judges. Of course there are those kids. There are kids who apply according to all kinds of preferences, and urban preference is one of the biggest. There are kids with top-flight grades at top-flight schools who just apply to a very small group of judges. There are kids who only apply in D.C. There are kids who only apply in California. There are some (I was not one, but I know several who were) who don't formally apply at all but are invited to interview and get offers on-the-spot because the judge called a professor or a dean and asked for a name of just one top student who hasn't been spoken for yet. Since big coastal cities are probably more desirable to more young people, I wouldn't be surprised if CoA judges in big coastal cities on average get somewhat larger numbers of applications than judges in the same circuits who aren't in those cities, though all of them surely get huge numbers of applications wherever they are.

The question, though, wasn't about people's preferences; it was "how is it less prestigious?"

This isn't sour grapes talking. I applied in NYC, Newark, and CT, and I am clerking 2d Cir. in NYC. I didn't want to go to Vermont myself, and I didn't apply. But I still believe the correct answer to the question "how is it less prestigious to clerk for Judge Hall or Judge Pooler than for any 2d Cir judge in NYC?" is "It isn't." At least not in the eyes of enough people who matter that it's worth caring about.

EDIT: Also, the point alluded to or implied several times already about individual judges is probably the most important point. The reputational/prestige differences between judges on whatever circuit is bigger than any repetitional/prestige difference between judges collectively according to their locations within the circuit. For most people who are likely to ever look at your resume, 2d Cir is 2d Cir, period. For some people who will look at it, 2d Cir judge X means something different than 2d Cir judge Y. But the notion you'd be taking some sort of diminishment of prestige by the fact of a 2d Cir judge not being in NYC is laughable, IMO.

I'm extremely surprised you didn't see the obvious connection you set up in your own question. Don't applicant preferences - and thus the size and quality of the applicant pool - have everything to do with prestige? Where the top applicants apply and don't apply - year after year - determine the prestige of the clerkship. It's the same thing with D.C. Circuit clerkships. They're not prestigious just because they're physically located in D.C. They're prestigious because the top candidates apply, so the clerks are selected from top of the top candidates, which means in future years, the top candidates will want those clerkships more, raising the bar for the top candidates who are actually competitive for the clerkship, and so on and so forth. It's a positive feedback. It's not just about the size of the candidate pool, though that has a little to do with it, it's about the quality of the top candidates in the candidate pool.

Look, let's put it this way. If in a never-going-to-happen hypothetical world, all the future SCOTUS candidates suddenly decide that Kavanaugh stinks for whatever reason (make up whatever you like) and they will never even apply much less accept a clerkship with him, so all his future clerks are drawn from a less-qualified pool, then the prestige of that clerkship goes down. Of course it's still prestigious, but it's less prestigious than before. Simple as that.

[Anonymous User]

I'm extremely surprised you didn't see the obvious connection you set up in your own question. Don't applicant preferences - and thus the size and quality of the applicant pool - have everything to do with prestige?

No, I actually don't think so. Something to do, yes. But everything to do, no. Perceived selectivity is more important than actual selectivity, and even that is probably not a perfectly linear correlation. And realistically we're talking about pretty fine gradations of selectivity. Judges are idiosyncratic and their hiring reflects that (in terms of which schools they like to hire from, what non-grade factors they care about if any, how much they care about them, etc.), but the idea that any 2d Cir judge couldn't fill all their clerkships with top graduates from top schools is pretty dubious. Thus even if a substantial portion of the top x% at your school don't want to go outside of NYC or the metro area (like I didn't), that probably won't make too much of a dent in the quality of the clerks, the perceived quality of the clerks, the perceived selectivity, or any long-term prestige or career advantages. If someone considering application priorities is weighing the personal qualities of the judges, their own desire to live in a particular place, and the relative prestige or career advantages, I would strongly advise them that the first two matter a huge amount and the latter should be a total non-factor between NYC and non-NYC 2d Cir judges as collective categories (though not necessarily a total non-factor between particular judges).

[Anonymous User]

No, I actually don't think so. Something to do, yes. But everything to do, no. Perceived selectivity is more important than actual selectivity, and even that is probably not a perfectly linear correlation. And realistically we're talking about pretty fine gradations of selectivity. Judges are idiosyncratic and their hiring reflects that (in terms of which schools they like to hire from, what non-grade factors they care about if any, how much they care about them, etc.), but the idea that any 2d Cir judge couldn't fill all their clerkships with top graduates from top schools is pretty dubious. Thus even if a substantial portion of the top x% at your school don't want to go outside of NYC or the metro area (like I didn't), that probably won't make too much of a dent in the quality of the clerks, the perceived quality of the clerks, the perceived selectivity, or any long-term prestige or career advantages. If someone considering application priorities is weighing the personal qualities of the judges, their own desire to live in a particular place, and the relative prestige or career advantages, I would strongly advise them that the first two matter a huge amount and the latter should be a total non-factor between NYC and non-NYC 2d Cir judges as collective categories (though not necessarily a total non-factor between particular judges).

I'm not sure this even answers the question. I'm not going to waste everyone's time by taking it apart line by line, but I simply cannot find credible your assertion that "even if a substantial portion of the top x% at your school don't want to go outside of NYC or the metro area . . . , that probably won't make too much of a dent in the quality of the clerks, the perceived quality of the clerks, the perceived selectivity, or any long-term prestige or career advantages." Like I am confident I could statistically disprove that statement by generating a random data set of clerks by clerk quality and running the data through some program that mimics clerk selection.

Look man. At the end of the day, I don't need to rely on what I "think" or "believe." All I need to do is look at my school's past clerkship placements. The data wins.

[Anonymous User]

Like I am confident I could statistically disprove that statement by generating a random data set of clerks by clerk quality and running the data through some program that mimics clerk selection. [...] At the end of the day, I don't need to rely on what I "think" or "believe."

Okay man, let us know when your statistical proof of clerkship prestige variations is ready.

My whole point is contained in this: "the idea that any 2d Cir judge couldn't fill all their clerkships with top graduates from top schools is pretty dubious." I guess you could bicker about what "top schools" or "top graduates" means, and not all judges hire in perfectly mechanical ways, but I'll stand behind that statement, and everything I meant to say is implied in it.