Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

[Anonymous User]

No pair of judges has had anything quite as formal as Rakoff/Katzmann, with (I believe) close to 100% of Rakoff clerks going to Katzmann. What Boasberg/Sri do is more common, with heavy overlap and referrals, but independent hiring processes. Thapar did this with Sutton and Kethledge while he was on E.D. Ky., as one other example.

Totally random prediction, but I can imagine Thapar, Sutton or Kethledge repeating this sort of dynamic with Beaton (EDKY)

Possibly. Many Beaton clerks have already clerked for a COA or have one lined up, though. It might take a bit before a similar process gets rolling.

Yeah, that's how it seems to be at my school. Do you have any idea what Beaton's vibe is? It does seem like he is selecting for people who already have a COA clerkship, which is a bit unusual for a district court judge

I've known Beaton for years, and he's very friendly and cool as a person. As for clerk hiring, he's ambitious.
I don't think he hires anyone unless they already have a quality circuit clerkship lined up or unless he has a pretty concrete plan to help them get one. And he seems aggressively supportive of his clerks once he hires them. He seems very Thapar-like in those ways, and may do a pretty great job replicating what Thapar did in that same district court judgeship back in the day.

[Anonymous User]

No pair of judges has had anything quite as formal as Rakoff/Katzmann, with (I believe) close to 100% of Rakoff clerks going to Katzmann. What Boasberg/Sri do is more common, with heavy overlap and referrals, but independent hiring processes. Thapar did this with Sutton and Kethledge while he was on E.D. Ky., as one other example.

Totally random prediction, but I can imagine Thapar, Sutton or Kethledge repeating this sort of dynamic with Beaton (EDKY)

Possibly. Many Beaton clerks have already clerked for a COA or have one lined up, though. It might take a bit before a similar process gets rolling.

Yeah, that's how it seems to be at my school. Do you have any idea what Beaton's vibe is? It does seem like he is selecting for people who already have a COA clerkship, which is a bit unusual for a district court judge

I've known Beaton for years, and he's very friendly and cool as a person. As for clerk hiring, he's ambitious.
I don't think he hires anyone unless they already have a quality circuit clerkship lined up or unless he has a pretty concrete plan to help them get one. And he seems aggressively supportive of his clerks once he hires them. He seems very Thapar-like in those ways, and may do a pretty great job replicating what Thapar did in that same district court judgeship back in the day.

Has Beaton Fed any?

[Anonymous User]

No pair of judges has had anything quite as formal as Rakoff/Katzmann, with (I believe) close to 100% of Rakoff clerks going to Katzmann. What Boasberg/Sri do is more common, with heavy overlap and referrals, but independent hiring processes. Thapar did this with Sutton and Kethledge while he was on E.D. Ky., as one other example.

Totally random prediction, but I can imagine Thapar, Sutton or Kethledge repeating this sort of dynamic with Beaton (EDKY)

Possibly. Many Beaton clerks have already clerked for a COA or have one lined up, though. It might take a bit before a similar process gets rolling.

Yeah, that's how it seems to be at my school. Do you have any idea what Beaton's vibe is? It does seem like he is selecting for people who already have a COA clerkship, which is a bit unusual for a district court judge

I've known Beaton for years, and he's very friendly and cool as a person. As for clerk hiring, he's ambitious.
I don't think he hires anyone unless they already have a quality circuit clerkship lined up or unless he has a pretty concrete plan to help them get one. And he seems aggressively supportive of his clerks once he hires them. He seems very Thapar-like in those ways, and may do a pretty great job replicating what Thapar did in that same district court judgeship back in the day.

Has Beaton Fed any?

Not that I know of, yet, but I'd be surprised if that didn't start happening.

[Anonymous User]

Has Beaton Fed any?

Not that I know of, yet, but I'd be surprised if that didn't start happening.

NDLS valedictorian is heading to Beaton/Thapar so that might signal the start of a trend...

[throwawayt14]

Has Beaton Fed any?

Not that I know of, yet, but I'd be surprised if that didn't start happening.

NDLS valedictorian is heading to Beaton/Thapar so that might signal the start of a trend...

Officer on a nuclear sub, all-conference football player, and valedictorian at NDLS? Yeah, I think his future is bright.

[Anonymous User]

Has Beaton Fed any?

Not that I know of, yet, but I'd be surprised if that didn't start happening.

NDLS valedictorian is heading to Beaton/Thapar so that might signal the start of a trend...

Officer on a nuclear sub, all-conference football player, and valedictorian at NDLS? Yeah, I think his future is bright.

ND has been setting him up for a SCOTUS clerkship since his 1L year. Will probably end up with Thomas.

[Anonymous User]

Wesley is in the middle of nowhere, but interpersonally a great clerkship. He might be the most social judge on the Second Circuit.

[Anonymous User]

I have heard that Judge Ikuta on the Ninth Circuit is one to avoid at all costs. Constantly stressed out and passes it along to clerks, often complains about other judges, is a very poor communicator, and volunteers clerks to do work for other judges because of impatience. Judge Ikuta is the type of person who has a 150 page chambers guidelines a clerk is expected to memorize before she starts with trivialities like Judge Ikuta doesn't prefer ice in water. If a clerk misses any of these details, Judge Ikuta scowls and patronizes. Judge Ikuta is almost robotic. Don't expect to be taken out for meals, appreciated, invited over, or be given birthdays or any time at all off. Judge Ikuta sees clerks as dispensable assets, not people. I'm not surprised to read here that she asked a female clerk inappropriate questions during the interview.

[Anonymous User]

I have heard that Judge Ikuta on the Ninth Circuit is one to avoid at all costs. Constantly stressed out and passes it along to clerks, often complains about other judges, is a very poor communicator, and volunteers clerks to do work for other judges because of impatience. Judge Ikuta is the type of person who has a 150 page chambers guidelines a clerk is expected to memorize before she starts with trivialities like Judge Ikuta doesn't prefer ice in water. If a clerk misses any of these details, Judge Ikuta scowls and patronizes. Judge Ikuta is almost robotic. Don't expect to be taken out for meals, appreciated, invited over, or be given birthdays or any time at all off. Judge Ikuta sees clerks as dispensable assets, not people. I'm not surprised to read here that she asked a female clerk inappropriate questions during the interview.

Not disputing any of the true negatives here (nor do I have no personal experience with Ikuta) but lol at being taken out for meals, invited over, or getting your birthday off being meaningful criteria. (Yes, I'm sure some judges do those things; they're still not material.)

[Anonymous User]

It’s no secret that Ikuta is demanding but plenty of her clerks love her. And she is certainly not “robotic”—I’ve often heard her compared to a grandmother. But I imagine she’s a very bad fit for some people. My understanding is that she makes it clear to interviewees what they’re getting into.

[Anonymous User]

Pretty strange post. I can all but guarantee I've spoken to more Ikuta clerks than you have, and I've heard zero of these. At best, some of them are negative twists on things, and I've admittedly got no idea what her chambers manual looks like, but every single clerk I've spoken to has said she's a good boss.

Just a couple specifics: Time off isn't a thing during clerkships, generally—and yet she's perfectly understanding re: special occasions, unlike some actual avoid-at-all-costs judges. You shouldn't expect to be taken out for meals or given birthdays off, because...it's a job? (If your only work experience has been as a summer associate, I hate to break it to you, but being wined and dined is not the norm. And what job gives your birthday off? I want that.) The chambers eats together each week, though. And clerks' accomplishments are celebrated and there are definite signs of appreciation. Robotic might describe her work ethic, but not her demeanor.

All in all, weird post.

(Also I should clarify that I did not clerk for Ikuta—I'm just passing along what I've gathered from multiple people I'd consider reliable.)

[Anonymous User]

Pretty strange post. I can all but guarantee I've spoken to more Ikuta clerks than you have, and I've heard zero of these. At best, some of them are negative twists on things, and I've admittedly got no idea what her chambers manual looks like, but every single clerk I've spoken to has said she's a good boss.

Just a couple specifics: Time off isn't a thing during clerkships, generally—and yet she's perfectly understanding re: special occasions, unlike some actual avoid-at-all-costs judges. You shouldn't expect to be taken out for meals or given birthdays off, because...it's a job? (If your only work experience has been as a summer associate, I hate to break it to you, but being wined and dined is not the norm. And what job gives your birthday off? I want that.) The chambers eats together each week, though. And clerks' accomplishments are celebrated and there are definite signs of appreciation. Robotic might describe her work ethic, but not her demeanor.

All in all, weird post.

(Also I should clarify that I did not clerk for Ikuta—I'm just passing along what I've gathered from multiple people I'd consider reliable.)

Unrelated, but what is the standard time off for clerks? For example, is it normal for judges to give clerks a couple of days off around Christmas or Thanksgiving?

[Anonymous User]

Clerkships don’t really have a normal leave arrangement, but yeah most judges close chambers around major holidays. Not much happens between Christmas and New Years.

[Anonymous User]

My judge also let me work remotely between Christmas and New Year, although I don't think I actually took any of that time off. I was in a long-distance relationship during the clerkship, which the judge knew when they hired me, so they were relatively flexible about me working remotely on a few long weekends, back before the pandemic and remote work became more normal.

We got all the federal holidays because the court was closed, and the court also closed the day after Thanksgiving/Christmas Eve/maybe New Year's Eve? They weren't official holidays in that they had to get officially blessed every year, but to my understanding in practice they did happen every year. My judge was also fine with time off for interviewing, and I think for medical appointments. (Another judge in the same courthouse apparently warned incoming clerks to get medical/dental checkups cleared away before they started, so...yeah.) But I don't think there was much other official time off.

BUT my judge did agree to put me on the federal leave plan. I don't know if this is still an option, but at the time, in that district anyway, if your judge agreed, you could get put on the leave plan, and you accrued leave each pay period (I think it would have been 4 hours). The idea wasn't that you would actually take leave (though I imagine if you had a medical emergency or such it might have been helpful to have sick leave officially available to you), but that at the end of the clerkship they'd pay out your accrued annual leave as a lump sum. This was really helpful for moving to my next city before I had a paycheck coming in.

[Anonymous User]

Clerkships don’t really have a normal leave arrangement, but yeah most judges close chambers around major holidays. Not much happens between Christmas and New Years.

Depends on the judge. The judge i worked for worked hard but was not a work-a-holic so he would take off major holidays with some bumper days on each end and he was nice so he was like yeah you guys should also take off those days too. I can imagine though that if there is a judge that literally only takes the Thursday of Thanksgiving off and Christmas morning off for himself, they'll also expect you to be there.

LMAO at getting a day off on your birthday. I can't remember the last time in my life that just being able to eschew day-time responsibilities on the day of my birthday was actually a thing.

[Anonymous User]

Clerkships don’t really have a normal leave arrangement, but yeah most judges close chambers around major holidays. Not much happens between Christmas and New Years.

Depends on the judge. The judge i worked for worked hard but was not a work-a-holic so he would take off major holidays with some bumper days on each end and he was nice so he was like yeah you guys should also take off those days too. I can imagine though that if there is a judge that literally only takes the Thursday of Thanksgiving off and Christmas morning off for himself, they'll also expect you to be there.

LMAO at getting a day off on your birthday. I can't remember the last time in my life that just being able to eschew day-time responsibilities on the day of my birthday was actually a thing.

Birthday People are a thing. My otherwise completely adult sister takes her birthday off every single year, even when it's a Tuesday and absolutely everyone else in her life is at work. I don't understand it, but some people think this way.

Re: Ikuta, I did not clerk for her, but her clerks seemed happy (and very smart/bookish) when I met them at a sitting. From being in the same room with her, she is obviously a very nervous person, so I can see how this would affect the clerkship experience.

150-page manuals on how to do the job are far less uncommon than the scarepost makes them seem. I interned for a judge with one of them, and clerked for two lower-stress judges who nevertheless had 30-50 page manuals.

[Anonymous User]

Clerkships don’t really have a normal leave arrangement, but yeah most judges close chambers around major holidays. Not much happens between Christmas and New Years.

Depends on the judge. The judge i worked for worked hard but was not a work-a-holic so he would take off major holidays with some bumper days on each end and he was nice so he was like yeah you guys should also take off those days too. I can imagine though that if there is a judge that literally only takes the Thursday of Thanksgiving off and Christmas morning off for himself, they'll also expect you to be there.

LMAO at getting a day off on your birthday. I can't remember the last time in my life that just being able to eschew day-time responsibilities on the day of my birthday was actually a thing.

Lol, I take my birthday off. But I’m a government employee and can take off whenever as long as I have leave and nothing actually scheduled for that day. I don’t have kids or any real family obligations that require other days off so it’s just a decent reason to take a break, plus timing-wise it usually rolls into a long holiday weekend.

That said, I don’t tell people at work that’s why I’m taking the day off, I certainly don’t feel entitled to get it off, and especially not when I was clerking. Even now if stuff gets scheduled on that day then I just go to work like a normal human being.

back to Ikuta, I’d have loved a detailed clerking manual, but would not have done well being expected to know 150 pp worth of manual. But the thing that’s tough about clerking is that some judges are just objectively bad bosses to everyone, and some are just a bad fit for certain people. And when it’s a bad fit it’s really easy to feel like shit - like you are the problem (because other people get along with the judge fine) - when really it’s no one’s fault, it’s just a bad mix.

[lavarman84]

I have heard that Judge Ikuta on the Ninth Circuit is one to avoid at all costs. Constantly stressed out and passes it along to clerks, often complains about other judges, is a very poor communicator, and volunteers clerks to do work for other judges because of impatience. Judge Ikuta is the type of person who has a 150 page chambers guidelines a clerk is expected to memorize before she starts with trivialities like Judge Ikuta doesn't prefer ice in water. If a clerk misses any of these details, Judge Ikuta scowls and patronizes. Judge Ikuta is almost robotic. Don't expect to be taken out for meals, appreciated, invited over, or be given birthdays or any time at all off. Judge Ikuta sees clerks as dispensable assets, not people. I'm not surprised to read here that she asked a female clerk inappropriate questions during the interview.

Not disputing any of the true negatives here (nor do I have no personal experience with Ikuta) but lol at being taken out for meals, invited over, or getting your birthday off being meaningful criteria. (Yes, I'm sure some judges do those things; they're still not material.)

I'd say those things are the difference between an average clerkship and a great one. I had a judge who went out with us for lunch every day, invited me to his house for holiday meals, and gave me time off when I needed it. (I never asked for my birthday off because I don't really celebrate my birthday.) Is that the normal experience? Based on talking to other clerks, no.

[Anonymous User]

I have heard that Judge Ikuta on the Ninth Circuit is one to avoid at all costs. Constantly stressed out and passes it along to clerks, often complains about other judges, is a very poor communicator, and volunteers clerks to do work for other judges because of impatience. Judge Ikuta is the type of person who has a 150 page chambers guidelines a clerk is expected to memorize before she starts with trivialities like Judge Ikuta doesn't prefer ice in water. If a clerk misses any of these details, Judge Ikuta scowls and patronizes. Judge Ikuta is almost robotic. Don't expect to be taken out for meals, appreciated, invited over, or be given birthdays or any time at all off. Judge Ikuta sees clerks as dispensable assets, not people. I'm not surprised to read here that she asked a female clerk inappropriate questions during the interview.

Not disputing any of the true negatives here (nor do I have no personal experience with Ikuta) but lol at being taken out for meals, invited over, or getting your birthday off being meaningful criteria. (Yes, I'm sure some judges do those things; they're still not material.)

I'd say those things are the difference between an average clerkship and a great one. I had a judge who went out with us for lunch every day, invited me to his house for holiday meals, and gave me time off when I needed it. (I never asked for my birthday off because I don't really celebrate my birthday.) Is that the normal experience? Based on talking to other clerks, no.

I don’t think being “taken out” for meals (which I don’t think is same as eating meals with the judge, but that too) or going to their house is going to improve a relationship with a judge who is otherwise terrible, nor do I think an absence of those things makes a clerkship worse where the judge is a good boss.

I clerked for a judge who had a particular quirk about never having people over to their house or going out to socialize with clerks (they had a permanent clerk who’d worked for them for 10 years and never been in their house). But they were an EXCELLENT boss who worked really hard to train clerks and really bring them into the legal writing/research process, was never to busy to discuss a case or talk about their analytical process, and was an overall kind human being while doing so. I preferred and learned more clerking for that judge than for the judge who went out to eat with chambers semi-regularly. That judge was perfectly good and I often enjoyed the meals (though sometimes not bc the social dynamics in chambers could be weird), but they didn’t make the clerkship fundamentally better.

There’s nothing wrong with those things and if you have a great relationship with your judge they can be a lot of fun. They just don’t turn an average clerkship into a great one.

[Anonymous User]

But the thing that’s tough about clerking is that some judges are just objectively bad bosses to everyone, and some are just a bad fit for certain people. And when it’s a bad fit it’s really easy to feel like shit - like you are the problem (because other people get along with the judge fine) - when really it’s no one’s fault, it’s just a bad mix.

Yeah I think this is important and pretty much out of applicants’ control. E.g. my judge is/was extremely energetic and social and also fairly neurotic. A bit of a golden retriever of a judge. Whether you find working with someone like that invigorating or exhausting would have a big impact on your clerkship experience, but it’s not really either of your faults.

[Anonymous User]

Can confirm that Judge Ikuta is a miserable boss for reasons unrelated to working hard. Abrasive, rude to clerks, and tries to reach particular results.

[Anonymous User]

Can confirm that Judge Ikuta is a miserable boss for reasons unrelated to working hard. Abrasive, rude to clerks, and tries to reach particular results.

Can you confirm that because you personally worked for her? Or is it because you don't agree with her opinions?

[Anonymous User]

I have heard Judge Ikuta described a lot of ways, rude and abrasive have never been among them. And I have certainly never heard her described that way by anyone who has clerked for her. This is a good opportunity for everyone reading this thread to remember to take everything here—which is totally unsubstantiated rumors posted by anonymous accounts—with a big grain of salt. If someone is not willing to post any explanation for the rumors they toss out, it's a good sign that you shouldn't put too much weight behind them.

[Anonymous User]

Hilarious post from an anonymous account.re "I have never heard"

[Anonymous User]

Hilarious post from an anonymous account.re "I have never heard"

As if we all aren’t anonymous? I think I’m reasonably well-connected and have also never heard Ikuta described as anything like abrasive (more the opposite). I’m apparently not the only one—and remember that very few bad reports here get pushback, so the response here seems telling to me.