SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships Forum

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks so much for taking the time, OP.

I'm wondering what you recommend for someone in my position looking to clerk for the Supreme Court. I just finished my first year at a T15-T17 in the top 7-8 percent. Do I have a shot or is it pretty much out of the picture? How will I fare with COA judges were I to apply in the Fall-- doesn't necessarily have to be a feeder.

I'm currently interning for a federal judge. Is there anything I can do (other than give my best work product) to increase my chances at landing a clerkship? Like most interns, I get little face time with the judge, unfortunately.
This is OP.

Isolating ONLY for wanting to SCOTUS/feeder clerk: transfer as high as you can and start over. Make law review. I do not endorse this advice for any other purpose.

But anyone who makes all his or her decisions based on SCOTUS clerking is a fool, or insane. So: graduate #1 in your class. Period.

You are probably live for COA, though not a lock. You are a distant longshot for a feeder unless you are lucky. I presume you are at UT, UCLA, or Vanderbilt. Kozinski sometimes hires from UCLA. UT sometimes places with big feeders too.

In my experience there is no relationship between interning for a judge and securing a clerkship with that judge (or any other). No one takes interning seriously in clerkship hiring as far as I know.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:51 am

flawschoolkid wrote:Given you so-far experience, would you do it all again OP? Seems like a too-good opportunity to pass up, but I've found sometimes expectations and reality don't match.
This is OP. Yes. The experience is unlike anything else. But it cost me a lot. It costs everyone who gets it a lot. Hundreds of hours and years in weird places or for demanding judges. It's fantastic. But takes a lot.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:Three disjointed questions from COA clerk/soon to be d. ct. clerk who may apply next year:

1. How much does Justice Alito care about an applicant's ideology?

2. How helpful are calls from judges or profs. who don't know the justice personally?

3. Why do you think LR matter so much? For what it signals about an applicant or because it is genuinely a meaningful experience to the justices?
This is OP.

1. Quite a lot.

2. Helpful in proportion to the ranking of the school, prestige of the professor, and how far the professor wants to put him or herself out. A professor that has been in the business for 10+ years at a t14 that says: "this is it, this is my best one" is going to get somewhere. Professors have political capital. Their influence depends on how much they want to spend.

3. Cheap, efficient proxy for winnowing out candidates. Also it teaches you nitpick. A lot of the job is nitpicking.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:What do you call the justices in chambers or even interviews? Justice X? Judge?
This is OP. "Justice XYZ" or "Chief Justice Roberts." "Mr. Chief Justice" is also acceptable. Everyone else is Justice. Justice Ginsburg, Justice Thomas, etc.

Either you get how to interact with a Justice or you don't. If you don't, you aren't gonna learn in the interview.

The real key is showing that you defer to them but have enough backbone to tell your potential boss that he or she is wrong. If you aren't willing to tell him or her when it counts that she's wrong -- while still making it clear you know he or she is the one in the robe -- you aren't worth the spot. And that's a really hard line to walk.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:57 am

This is OP. I think I have addressed all questions above. Thank you all for your kind words. I will only be reading questions below this post from now on. Too many posts to scroll back. Please consider this thread still open if any questions are still out. I will not answer any questions that I think could reveal anything about when I clerked, what I do, and so on. I will not reveal anything about the Justices or the Court's business. But feel free to ask anything clerkship-related.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by nonprofit-prophet » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks so much for taking the time, OP.

I'm wondering what you recommend for someone in my position looking to clerk for the Supreme Court. I just finished my first year at a T15-T17 in the top 7-8 percent. Do I have a shot or is it pretty much out of the picture? How will I fare with COA judges were I to apply in the Fall-- doesn't necessarily have to be a feeder.

I'm currently interning for a federal judge. Is there anything I can do (other than give my best work product) to increase my chances at landing a clerkship? Like most interns, I get little face time with the judge, unfortunately.
This is OP.

Isolating ONLY for wanting to SCOTUS/feeder clerk: transfer as high as you can and start over. Make law review. I do not endorse this advice for any other purpose.

But anyone who makes all his or her decisions based on SCOTUS clerking is a fool, or insane. So: graduate #1 in your class. Period.

You are probably live for COA, though not a lock. You are a distant longshot for a feeder unless you are lucky. I presume you are at UT, UCLA, or Vanderbilt. Kozinski sometimes hires from UCLA. UT sometimes places with big feeders too.

In my experience there is no relationship between interning for a judge and securing a clerkship with that judge (or any other). No one takes interning seriously in clerkship hiring as far as I know.

If you're at UT, you'll need to be in the top 1-4% for a COA clerkship. You'll have to be in the top 5 people to get a good COA clerkship (above a 4.0).

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:13 am

How do you feel about T50-70 top 2% student with LR/Moot Court getting non feeder COA right out of LS? Figure that even if I was #1, I still wouldn't get SCOTUS, only a person or two has ever gotten it from my school.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Elston Gunn » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can you discuss the interview process? Any advice on how to prepare and what to expect?

Also: how does to process work for, say, the HLR president? Is it essentially a done deal for him/her?
This is OP. It is never a done deal for anyone. Even the #1 at Yale has under a 50% chance, though much closer to that than anyone else. No one is a "lock." (Unless born to legal royalty, I guess. If you're Paul Clement's or David Boies's child, good luck with your SCOTUS clerkship.)

But the process there works behind-the-scenes kind of the same way as it does for anyone. Just that person has so much institutional support it is baffling.
Does the #1 at Yale really only have an under 50% chance? That seems much lower than I would have thought.
This is OP.

There is really a such thing as a #1 at Yale. And Harvard. Schools tell you they don't rank, but they call chambers and break ties for the Justices. COA judges too. If you think there's no #1 at Yale, you're kidding yourself. They still give out a Fay Diploma and a Sears Prize, after all.
Huh. Interesting. Unless there's exactly one person with all H's, it would have to basically be a subjective #1 though, right? Or do they have some super secret formula that makes sense of the smiley faces? (I'm talking Y, HLS grades are at least curved.)

Fay and Sears are both HLS though right?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:32 am

Sears and Fay are both HLS. How do the justices tell whether someone is in the top 1% versus top 3% versus top 5% at HLS? Do the clerks tabulate the GPA (ascribing 5 points to DS, 4 to H, 3 to P) and rank all HLS candidates? The only time HLS itself tabulates GPA is for Latin Honors purposes, but it does so on a year-by-year basis (first determining the GPA for each year and then averaging the three years). I'm wondering if the Court does something similar.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:40 am

OP, would you be willing to speak in broad strokes about each Justice's hiring timeline?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Would you be willing to share quick thoughts on specific judges, to the extent that you have any? I have a shortlist of COA judges for whom I'd most like to clerk and would be curious as to your thoughts - not necessarily for SCOTUS purposes (several are not feeders at all) but rather to get a better feel for my application strategy.
This is OP. I am globally willing to answer questions like this. I promise my advice is worth what you paid for it.
Wow, thanks. Truly appreciate it. Here are some of the judges on my list:

Boudin (1st)
Gibbons (6th)
Gorsuch (10th)
Livingston (2d)
Niemeyer (4th)
Pryor (11th)
Scirica (3d)
Smith (5th)
Sykes (7th)

Based on the information in this thread, my grades and profile would make me a credible (but not strong) SCOTUS candidate. That said, I'm not necessarily aiming for a SCOTUS clerkship, so any thoughts (SCOTUS-related or otherwise) would be appreciated.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:33 pm

nonprofit-prophet wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks so much for taking the time, OP.

I'm wondering what you recommend for someone in my position looking to clerk for the Supreme Court. I just finished my first year at a T15-T17 in the top 7-8 percent. Do I have a shot or is it pretty much out of the picture? How will I fare with COA judges were I to apply in the Fall-- doesn't necessarily have to be a feeder.

I'm currently interning for a federal judge. Is there anything I can do (other than give my best work product) to increase my chances at landing a clerkship? Like most interns, I get little face time with the judge, unfortunately.
This is OP.

Isolating ONLY for wanting to SCOTUS/feeder clerk: transfer as high as you can and start over. Make law review. I do not endorse this advice for any other purpose.

But anyone who makes all his or her decisions based on SCOTUS clerking is a fool, or insane. So: graduate #1 in your class. Period.

You are probably live for COA, though not a lock. You are a distant longshot for a feeder unless you are lucky. I presume you are at UT, UCLA, or Vanderbilt. Kozinski sometimes hires from UCLA. UT sometimes places with big feeders too.

In my experience there is no relationship between interning for a judge and securing a clerkship with that judge (or any other). No one takes interning seriously in clerkship hiring as far as I know.

If you're at UT, you'll need to be in the top 1-4% for a COA clerkship. You'll have to be in the top 5 people to get a good COA clerkship (above a 4.0).
This is OP.

I have seen multiple (more than 3) UT students with grades in the top 4-7% get COA clerkships. But if nonprofit has inside knowledge assume he is right as a default. Some people get COAs from that position, especially on CA5 and CA11. Feeders are, again, a longshot.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How do you feel about T50-70 top 2% student with LR/Moot Court getting non feeder COA right out of LS? Figure that even if I was #1, I still wouldn't get SCOTUS, only a person or two has ever gotten it from my school.
This is OP.

I'd handicap your odds at about 1 in 15 right out of LS, 1 in 4 with a d. ct. clerkship under your belt. These are rough numbers.

~0% shot at SCOTUS. Sorry.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sears and Fay are both HLS. How do the justices tell whether someone is in the top 1% versus top 3% versus top 5% at HLS? Do the clerks tabulate the GPA (ascribing 5 points to DS, 4 to H, 3 to P) and rank all HLS candidates? The only time HLS itself tabulates GPA is for Latin Honors purposes, but it does so on a year-by-year basis (first determining the GPA for each year and then averaging the three years). I'm wondering if the Court does something similar.
This is OP. The justices tell by asking. The justices call and ask. It's that simple. Do you think Elena Kagan (or any other justice) has trouble getting HLS to tell her who the person to hire is?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:37 pm

This is OP. Re: Fay, YLS, HLS, etc. It's less subjective than you'd think.

The whole game behind "we aren't issuing grades" is to make as many people able to credibly say "I am the #1 student in the class" as possible. That works for many things. But SCOTUS justices just ask for the bottom line, and they get it.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:40 pm

This is OP.

Re: the judges list.

Boudin (1st)
Gibbons (6th)
Gorsuch (10th)
Livingston (2d)
Niemeyer (4th)
Pryor (11th)
Scirica (3d)
Smith (5th)
Sykes (7th)

If SCOTUS is your priority, you have to make Gorsuch and then Boudin your priority. No one else is close.

From your read this is a pretty conservative panel. If you are competitive for Gorsuch consider adding Sentelle too.

If you aren't asking about SCOTUS as much, Smith and Sykes are by far the best quality-of-life judges on the list you offered. Pryor is probably the hardest boss of those you listed. Gorsuch is difficult too but the 10th Circuit often goes skiing. So that's worth something. Then again, CA5 sits in New Orleans and CA7 has some of the best possible panels.

If you offered me any of those clerkships and I didn't care about SCOTUS, I'd take Smith, then Sykes, then Gorsuch, then Livingston.

If you offered me any of them and I cared about SCOTUS, Gorsuch, Boudin, Sykes, Livingston, Pryor.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, would you be willing to speak in broad strokes about each Justice's hiring timeline?
This is OP. Too variable and it fluctuates year-by-year, so I may give away my year. So I'd rather not. But I can tell you that the best thing you can do is get your application in and complete sometime in Feb. at latest.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by sundance95 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:05 pm

Any sense of the QoL/lifestyle of a Tatel clerkship?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:08 pm

As someone about to begin a feeder clerkship (i.e., in 2014-'15) and beginning to consider what to do the following year (i.e., in 2015-'16): Do you think it matters, for this purpose, how applicants spend the year following their COA clerkships? (Obviously, this is applicable only to those who don't go 'straight through' to the Court.) You've talked a bit about the Bristow Fellowship--are there other line items on the resume that are likely to stand out? Would you prioritize an interesting story (i.e., an unusual job), a second clerkship, an opportunity to network (i.e., a job that put you in proximity to former clerks)?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:26 pm

sundance95 wrote:Any sense of the QoL/lifestyle of a Tatel clerkship?
This is OP. Fantastic. But if you're competitive, you'll be told that quickly.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As someone about to begin a feeder clerkship (i.e., in 2014-'15) and beginning to consider what to do the following year (i.e., in 2015-'16): Do you think it matters, for this purpose, how applicants spend the year following their COA clerkships? (Obviously, this is applicable only to those who don't go 'straight through' to the Court.) You've talked a bit about the Bristow Fellowship--are there other line items on the resume that are likely to stand out? Would you prioritize an interesting story (i.e., an unusual job), a second clerkship, an opportunity to network (i.e., a job that put you in proximity to former clerks)?
This is OP. Do whatever you would do if SCOTUS were not an option. Generally this means either go into practice, take a plum DOJ gig, apply for a Bristow, or apply for academic fellowships & write a publishable paper.

SCOTUS is not a great shot for anyone. Do not plan your life around it.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:03 pm

Would a recommendation from a well-known lawyer, but non-professor, have any weight In the SCOTUS hiring process? E.g., someone like David Boies or Carter Phillips, to use a couple examples you mentioned earlier.

What about non-famous former clerks?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Doorkeeper » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:44 pm

As OP seems to know the DCC well: Edwards, Williams, Randolph, Rogers, Silberman.

Thoughts? Quality of Life as a clerk? How are they as bosses? I don't care about their relative feeding abilities. I've heard some nasty things about a few of them as bosses, but all info is helpful!
Last edited by Doorkeeper on Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by nonprofit-prophet » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Would you be willing to share quick thoughts on specific judges, to the extent that you have any? I have a shortlist of COA judges for whom I'd most like to clerk and would be curious as to your thoughts - not necessarily for SCOTUS purposes (several are not feeders at all) but rather to get a better feel for my application strategy.
This is OP. I am globally willing to answer questions like this. I promise my advice is worth what you paid for it.
Wow, thanks. Truly appreciate it. Here are some of the judges on my list:

Boudin (1st)
Gibbons (6th)
Gorsuch (10th)
Livingston (2d)
Niemeyer (4th)
Pryor (11th)
Scirica (3d)
Smith (5th)
Sykes (7th)

Based on the information in this thread, my grades and profile would make me a credible (but not strong) SCOTUS candidate. That said, I'm not necessarily aiming for a SCOTUS clerkship, so any thoughts (SCOTUS-related or otherwise) would be appreciated.

Why not apply to Jones as well as Smith? Jones has placed a few clerks with Thomas, Roberts, Alito, and Scalia in recent years.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by nonprofit-prophet » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks so much for taking the time, OP.

I'm wondering what you recommend for someone in my position looking to clerk for the Supreme Court. I just finished my first year at a T15-T17 in the top 7-8 percent. Do I have a shot or is it pretty much out of the picture? How will I fare with COA judges were I to apply in the Fall-- doesn't necessarily have to be a feeder.

I'm currently interning for a federal judge. Is there anything I can do (other than give my best work product) to increase my chances at landing a clerkship? Like most interns, I get little face time with the judge, unfortunately.
This is OP.

Isolating ONLY for wanting to SCOTUS/feeder clerk: transfer as high as you can and start over. Make law review. I do not endorse this advice for any other purpose.

But anyone who makes all his or her decisions based on SCOTUS clerking is a fool, or insane. So: graduate #1 in your class. Period.

You are probably live for COA, though not a lock. You are a distant longshot for a feeder unless you are lucky. I presume you are at UT, UCLA, or Vanderbilt. Kozinski sometimes hires from UCLA. UT sometimes places with big feeders too.

In my experience there is no relationship between interning for a judge and securing a clerkship with that judge (or any other). No one takes interning seriously in clerkship hiring as far as I know.

If you're at UT, you'll need to be in the top 1-4% for a COA clerkship. You'll have to be in the top 5 people to get a good COA clerkship (above a 4.0).
This is OP.

I have seen multiple (more than 3) UT students with grades in the top 4-7% get COA clerkships. But if nonprofit has inside knowledge assume he is right as a default. Some people get COAs from that position, especially on CA5 and CA11. Feeders are, again, a longshot.
Straight out of LS? That's surprising. Almost all of the students clerking for COA judges straight after graduation have been chancellors (top 16 students), with the exception of a few students clerking for senior COA judges.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
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