Grades at Penn Forum

[Anonymous User]

Do you have any suggestions on how to figure out where in the class you are when you're at a school like Penn that doesn't even calculate GPAs, let alone rank us? Can you use the leaked UVA list from 2014? How can you tell what the UVA curve in 2014 was?

I'm worried about this because Penn uses this crazy process where you give the clerkship panel your top 10 judges. Based on those, aggregated across the class, the clerkship panel decides which judges the school will throw their weight behind you for (with the goal of maximizing total Penn placements). I don't want to end up in a situation where I put judges the clerkship panel laughs at me for ranking in my top ten, but I don't know how to evaluate whether I'm dreaming too high without knowing where the class I am. I'm particularly worried because I don't have a ton of the "heavy hitter" professors backing my application, so I'm very reliant on the clerkship panel to support me.

[Anonymous User]

I know at graduation in past years 3.95+ was summa (with A+ counting as a 4.3), 3.8 was magna and 3.7 would give you cum laude. I think if you're gunning for even a semi-feeder you'll want to be in summa territory. If you're up there you should be shooting for 3d Cir. judges who Struve and a few others can help out with. I believe Wolff knows people on the 9th.

If you're going for regular EDPA judges being in cum laude territory should be enough to rank them as your top 10.

[Anonymous User]

I clerk for a semi-feeder who hires from Penn and expects around a 4.0.

Btw what’s the UVA list?

[Anonymous User]

This is the UVA list: https://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-to ... pplicants/

Thank you to both of you! It's incredibly helpful to know what it has been at graduation/what a semi-feeder wants. I had no clue and I've been under the mistaken impression that my 3.8+ was great, when it's clearly not.

[Anonymous User]

I know at graduation in past years 3.95+ was summa (with A+ counting as a 4.3), 3.8 was magna and 3.7 would give you cum laude. I think if you're gunning for even a semi-feeder you'll want to be in summa territory. If you're up there you should be shooting for 3d Cir. judges who Struve and a few others can help out with. I believe Wolff knows people on the 9th.

If you're going for regular EDPA judges being in cum laude territory should be enough to rank them as your top 10.

Maybe wrong thread, but do you know anything else about latin honors? Does strength of schedule matter?

[Anonymous User]

Any idea how having only 3 grades for 1L year (second semester COVID P/F) will affect Latin honors this year? Trying to strategize clerkship applications. Some COA feeders want a certain GPA/class rank for applications. Tough to gage in a normal 3 yr run with no COVID.

[Anonymous User]

Mathematics would say that the P/F from 1L spring is likely to make the Latin honors cutoffs higher, since 1L is curved more drastically than the 2L/3L classes at Penn.

[Anonymous User]

Mathematics would say that the P/F from 1L spring is likely to make the Latin honors cutoffs higher, since 1L is curved more drastically than the 2L/3L classes at Penn.

Any sense of what they are normally / how calculation works w/ classes curved in non-uniform way?

[Anonymous User]

.

[Wubbles]

This is the UVA list: https://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-to ... pplicants/

Thank you to both of you! It's incredibly helpful to know what it has been at graduation/what a semi-feeder wants. I had no clue and I've been under the mistaken impression that my 3.8+ was great, when it's clearly not.

Yikes at thought that magna isn't great. You did better than almost everyone at one of the top schools in the country?

[Anonymous User]

This is the UVA list: https://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-to ... pplicants/

Thank you to both of you! It's incredibly helpful to know what it has been at graduation/what a semi-feeder wants. I had no clue and I've been under the mistaken impression that my 3.8+ was great, when it's clearly not.

Yikes at thought that magna isn't great. You did better than almost everyone at one of the top schools in the country?

A flat 3.8 almost certainly isn't going to get you flat cum at Penn, let alone magna.

[Anonymous User]

To the poster who said 3.8 wouldn’t get cum, were you class of 2022?

[Anonymous User]

This is the UVA list: https://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-to ... pplicants/

Thank you to both of you! It's incredibly helpful to know what it has been at graduation/what a semi-feeder wants. I had no clue and I've been under the mistaken impression that my 3.8+ was great, when it's clearly not.

Yikes at thought that magna isn't great. You did better than almost everyone at one of the top schools in the country?

A flat 3.8 almost certainly isn't going to get you flat cum at Penn, let alone magna.

3.8 not satisfying at least cum seems impossible, given 30ish% of the class gets Latin Honors, unless there's way more gamesmanship happening at Penn with people not taking any black letter law in 2L and 3L so they can get straight As.

[Anonymous User]

I know 3.6 gets cum laude so the comment about 3.8 not being sufficient for cum laude is BS.

[Anonymous User]

I know 3.6 gets cum laude so the comment about 3.8 not being sufficient for cum laude is BS.

How do you know this? Seems low

[Anonymous User]

This is the UVA list: https://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-to ... pplicants/

Thank you to both of you! It's incredibly helpful to know what it has been at graduation/what a semi-feeder wants. I had no clue and I've been under the mistaken impression that my 3.8+ was great, when it's clearly not.

Yikes at thought that magna isn't great. You did better than almost everyone at one of the top schools in the country?

A flat 3.8 almost certainly isn't going to get you flat cum at Penn, let alone magna.

This statement is mathematically incorrect unless an absolutely obscene amount of A+ are given out at Penn in 2L and 3L.

[Anonymous User]

This thread shows why our no-GPA system is so maddening. As if law school didn't already make it hard enough to figure out the rules of the game, we have no idea where we stand in the class to gauge competitiveness for more grade-selective opportunities. Hush hush, "grades don't matter," until you figure out you actually weren't competitive for that firm or that clerkship. Is top 10% after 1L a 3.70 or close to a 3.9? I've met students convinced of either. Is top 25% at commencement a 3.6 or above a 3.8? Who knows, none of us are great at math anyways. And don't get me started on the pie charts...

[Anonymous User]

This is the UVA list: https://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-to ... pplicants/

Thank you to both of you! It's incredibly helpful to know what it has been at graduation/what a semi-feeder wants. I had no clue and I've been under the mistaken impression that my 3.8+ was great, when it's clearly not.

Yikes at thought that magna isn't great. You did better than almost everyone at one of the top schools in the country?

A flat 3.8 almost certainly isn't going to get you flat cum at Penn, let alone magna.

This statement is mathematically incorrect unless an absolutely obscene amount of A+ are given out at Penn in 2L and 3L.

This

[pointplace]

I know 3.6 gets cum laude so the comment about 3.8 not being sufficient for cum laude is BS.

How do you know this? Seems low

This is not true. Speaking from personal experience. Friend had a ~3.65+ and didn't get latin honors (but did get a sought after circuit clerkship). ~3.7 is cum for 2020 and probably ~3.75 now given covid p/f.

[Anonymous User]

I know 3.6 gets cum laude so the comment about 3.8 not being sufficient for cum laude is BS.

How do you know this? Seems low

This is not true. Speaking from personal experience. Friend had a ~3.65+ and didn't get latin honors (but did get a sought after circuit clerkship). ~3.7 is cum for 2020 and probably ~3.75 now given covid p/f.

Was friend fedsoc? And are you saying 3.7 was cum for class of 2020? Do you have intel on magna cutoffs for around then? I assume class of 2020 would have slightly lower cutoffs because of 3L spring P/F and class of 2022 would be way higher for same reason

[Anonymous User]

I know 3.6 gets cum laude so the comment about 3.8 not being sufficient for cum laude is BS.

How do you know this? Seems low

This is not true. Speaking from personal experience. Friend had a ~3.65+ and didn't get latin honors (but did get a sought after circuit clerkship). ~3.7 is cum for 2020 and probably ~3.75 now given covid p/f.

Was friend fedsoc? And are you saying 3.7 was cum for class of 2020? Do you have intel on magna cutoffs for around then? I assume class of 2020 would have slightly lower cutoffs because of 3L spring P/F and class of 2022 would be way higher for same reason

Splitting hairs a bit. Guessing that P/F affected GPA calc for classes of 21 and 22 more than class of 20. 3L spring typically light credit load for many. 21 missed 2L sprint (more impactful usually). 22 missed 1L spring (most impactful)

[Anonymous User]

I know 3.6 gets cum laude so the comment about 3.8 not being sufficient for cum laude is BS.

How do you know this? Seems low

This is not true. Speaking from personal experience. Friend had a ~3.65+ and didn't get latin honors (but did get a sought after circuit clerkship). ~3.7 is cum for 2020 and probably ~3.75 now given covid p/f.

It seems like strength of schedule could be a factor if both of the above are true? The grade curves at Penn for upper level classes are absolutely all over the place. There are upper level classes that give ~60% As and others that give ~15% As.

[Anonymous User]

I know 3.6 gets cum laude so the comment about 3.8 not being sufficient for cum laude is BS.

How do you know this? Seems low

This is not true. Speaking from personal experience. Friend had a ~3.65+ and didn't get latin honors (but did get a sought after circuit clerkship). ~3.7 is cum for 2020 and probably ~3.75 now given covid p/f.

It seems like strength of schedule could be a factor if both of the above are true? The grade curves at Penn for upper level classes are absolutely all over the place. There are upper level classes that give ~60% As and others that give ~15% As.

And to think our GPA policies are probably meant to keep people from overthinking grades... ha.

[Anonymous User]

So, the more pressing question: What is the 2L GPA around which you have a reasonable shot at clerking? As we all know, Fritton is useless.

[Anonymous User]

Whos the worst and meanest professor at Penn