Hastings Class of 2015 Forum

[ahnhub]

The unemployment rate for law graduates (and this means COMPLETE unemployment, no job whatsoever) is 15%. National unemployment is only 8.2% and CA only 11%. You're more likely to have no job whatsoever if you went to law school. And you're into debt up to your eyeballs if you're not a rich kid whose parents paid cash.

I have no dog in this fight. I probably wouldn't go to Hastings unless I had tons of $$, either. But the other poster is entirely correct in pointing out you're citing apples to dragonfruit. People with no experience generally have much higher unemployment than those who do, and the difference is exacerbated during recessions.

The fair thing to compare would be employment rates of college graduates 9 months after graduating with law school graduates 9 months after graduating. Almost certainly the law school rate is higher. This doesn't mean much--generally it's only the case because law school graduates have the option of practicing law in addition to other kinds of jobs people with a bachelor's are eligible for. Technically speaking, I'm almost certain you're more likely to have a job, at this moment, having graduated law school than if you didn't.

[monetaryeasing]

Parse what you're claiming. Think about it for a second. You're claiming that one cannot compare the unemployment rate that is a conglomeration of all sectors and all ages to an unemployment rate for those coming out of a specialized education. Why? Why is the comparison inappropriate? The prior poster said it was inappropriate because they are NEW grads and claimed the employment stats would improve. That's just an assertion that didn't follow from her other assertion that they're unemployed because they lack experience.

So, a niche industry of new grads is doing worse than an average of all ages and industries. It's funny you guys keep saying that that's not FAIR. That's how the labor department ranks the health of various sectors. Did you know that? They do as against national unemployment. Hmm. Wonder why. You've failed to articulate any reason that the comparison is not appropriate.

In fact, unemployment is way worse than 15% if you restrict to law jobs (JD-required), then it's 35%, and tack on another 16% if you restrict to FULL-TIME law jobs. So, the question is, why is this sub-set of people with JD's having no luck finding even regular jobs, and doing worse than an average of all industries and all professions?

You can assert that a law degree doesn't actually make you more unemployable (not to mention the debt), but bring some data or analyze the data and say why. The data points in the other direction. It says law grads are especially screwed.

User warned.

[ilovesf]

I don't think this is the right place for your arguments. This thread is supposed to be for incoming students to discuss school, etc, not for you guys to get off on talking about how shitty the economy is. Make another thread for that.

[monetaryeasing]

well, no one died and made you queen. one would imagine that the desperate state a law grad may well find him or herself in would be of paramount importance to incoming students. so, thanks, but i'll exercise my own discretion.

User warned.

[apollo2015]

I don't think this is the right place for your arguments. This thread is supposed to be for incoming students to discuss school, etc, not for you guys to get off on talking about how shitty the economy is. Make another thread for that.

Amen.

[bk1]

well, no one died and made you queen. one would imagine that the desperate state a law grad may well find him or herself in would be of paramount importance to incoming students. so, thanks, but i'll exercise my own discretion.

She's not queen, but I am king and she is right. There are plenty of places on TLS to discuss the job prospects of various schools including Hastings, but places like Class of 20XX and Admit/Deny/Waitlist threads are not one of them. This thread is for UC Hastings Class of 2015 students to talk among themselves.

Enjoy your time off.

[ilovesf]

well, no one died and made you queen. one would imagine that the desperate state a law grad may well find him or herself in would be of paramount importance to incoming students. so, thanks, but i'll exercise my own discretion.

She's not queen, but I am king and she is right. There are plenty of places on TLS to discuss the job prospects of various schools including Hastings, but places like Class of 20XX and Admit/Deny/Waitlist threads are not one of them. This thread is for UC Hastings Class of 2015 students to talk among themselves.

Enjoy your time off.

Thanks bk

[DildaMan]

Dear Class of 2015,
The previous poster is absolutely correct. Withdrawal, do it now, and run as fast as you can to anything else.

Going to Hastings in particular, and law school in general, right now is not just financial suicide, it's signing up to be a slave for 20 years, the best years you have ahead of you, to a debt burden so onerous that you will be excluded from a quality of life even enjoyed by the very poor. This is not a joke. I'm a rising 2L. I have friends who "did everything right" and have miserable lives and are in very bad shape.

You will not be able to buy a house; get a car loan; get married; have kids; have a social life (too poor). You cannot declare bankruptcy. If you become disabled, if you are capable of ANY gainful employment, your debt will not be discharged. If you are eligible for discharge, you will have a five year post-determination waiting period in which you cannot earn anything above the poverty level of your loans are reinstated. The government will garnish your check, including social security disability.

Right now the full cost (tuition + living expenses) doing it all on loans is $82,700. Tuition went up 15% year over last. And again, folks, that's the STICKER PRICE. There are no subsidized loans for graduate students any longer. You will be charged 6.5% and 8.5% interest on these loans; it capitalizes daily. This is insane. Insane. Not only that, but you are giving up three years during which you might have been working and earning money. Someone who scrubs toilets, during those three years, will in fact be significantly more wealthy than you with your extreme negative net worth. I swear to god, I would have run screaming from the place had I fully appreciated how destructive and hopeless the law school scam really is.

As active students we envy and admire and give 'props' to those who made the supremely intelligent decision to drop out.

Are you going to drop out?

[hiima3L]

Dear Class of 2015,
Right now the full cost (tuition + living expenses) doing it all on loans is $82,700.

...

I swear to god, I would have run screaming from the place had I fully appreciated how destructive and hopeless the law school scam really is.

As active students we envy and admire and give 'props' to those who made the supremely intelligent decision to drop out.

I think you meant $182,700. Even then, that's underestimating. Tuition is $52k/yr and the COL is AT LEAST $15k/yr. This is living extremely frugally because the Bay is so expensive. I speak from experience in both undergrad and while at Hastings.

A friend of mine dropped out after a terrible performance 1L fall semester. I think that left him with around $30k in debt. He found a job in January at a start-up and has been working there ever since. He recently said something to me that I think explains the gravity of the situation perfectly: "I never thought I'd be so happy to have a job that pays $50k."

Seriously, what can I do to convince you all to not make a terrible decision???

[kapital98]

Can we leave this thread for the Class of 2015? I agree with Sf that this conversation has essentially derailed their thread.

[apollo2015]

Yeah. I'm sure that by now all of us who are planning on going to Hastings already understand that living in San Francisco is expensive, and that the economy sucks.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... start=1050 would be the appropriate post to discuss Recession Panic.

To get things marginally back on topic, I'm excited about the art scene in the Hastings area. Has anyone been to the Luggage Store Gallery or any of its Streetopia events lately? It always strikes me as a cool place when I walk by it, but I've never been inside.

[Winston]

On another note, I'm curious to find out how bad the day-to-day Tower life is. I saw a 12th floor studio when I visited, which looked bigger than expected and fairly nice (minus the kitchenette thing). This was obviously just a quick look through and part of the pitch. Two additional things I noticed: noise is very loud in the hallway (figured it was because of the large crowd) and it was very hot throughout. I've read that the walls/ceilings are very thin, outside crackheads are loud (especially heard from the lower floors), and internet is unreliable (do a lot of students end up getting their own?). Exceptions or commonplace?

[Lasers]

On another note, I'm curious to find out how bad the day-to-day Tower life is. I saw a 12th floor studio when I visited, which looked bigger than expected and fairly nice (minus the kitchenette thing). This was obviously just a quick look through and part of the pitch. Two additional things I noticed: noise is very loud in the hallway (figured it was because of the large crowd) and it was very hot throughout. I've read that the walls/ceilings are very thin, outside crackheads are loud (especially heard from the lower floors), and internet is unreliable (do a lot of students end up getting their own?). Exceptions or commonplace?

internet isn't that bad. sometimes there are times it's sluggish, but really, it isn't really a problem. noise from the hallway really wasn't a problem at all, either, from what i remember. i really didn't ever have too much of a problem with that and my room was right by the elevators. i think there are rarely ever enough people in the halls to make that much noise to be a bother. i will say that street noise can be an issue, however. lots of sirens and generally loud homeless people will make themselves known at like 12-2am.

as for the heat...yes, it's hot. for some reason, my room was warm all the time, and i never used my heater. i actually loved it, though. i wore t-shirts and shorts all the time in my room when it was below 50 degrees outside; only time it sucks is when it's actually hot in the summer (pretty rare in sf), but even then it wasn't unbearably so.

i liked living in the tower 1L because of the supreme convenience; i'd move out after 1L though and find a nicer place (maybe with roommates).

[apollo2015]

When you guys are assigned classes, I will be happy to send anyone who PMs me my outlines. They will pretty much only be useful if we had the same professors. I had: Takacs, Mammen, Depoorter, Diamond (for Crim) and Knapp. I'm offering because today I was thinking about how helpful one of my TA's outline was, and how I wish more students had offered to send me theirs. I don't recommend only using it, but it could help you think about how to organize an outline, or if you don't like mine how to not organize it, and you can check your material against it.

I'll do the same thing. All of the same professors. Most of my outlines are short (10-20) pages. Just PM me.

Thanks, ilovesf and kapital98! You guys are awesome.

[kapital98]

On another note, I'm curious to find out how bad the day-to-day Tower life is. I saw a 12th floor studio when I visited, which looked bigger than expected and fairly nice (minus the kitchenette thing). This was obviously just a quick look through and part of the pitch. Two additional things I noticed: noise is very loud in the hallway (figured it was because of the large crowd) and it was very hot throughout. I've read that the walls/ceilings are very thin, outside crackheads are loud (especially heard from the lower floors), and internet is unreliable (do a lot of students end up getting their own?). Exceptions or commonplace?

internet isn't that bad. sometimes there are times it's sluggish, but really, it isn't really a problem. noise from the hallway really wasn't a problem at all, either, from what i remember. i really didn't ever have too much of a problem with that and my room was right by the elevators. i think there are rarely ever enough people in the halls to make that much noise to be a bother. i will say that street noise can be an issue, however. lots of sirens and generally loud homeless people will make themselves known at like 12-2am.

as for the heat...yes, it's hot. for some reason, my room was warm all the time, and i never used my heater. i actually loved it, though. i wore t-shirts and shorts all the time in my room when it was below 50 degrees outside; only time it sucks is when it's actually hot in the summer (pretty rare in sf), but even then it wasn't unbearably so.

i liked living in the tower 1L because of the supreme convenience; i'd move out after 1L though and find a nicer place (maybe with roommates).

I lived on the 6th floor. The walls are amazing. You can't hear anything the person next door is doing. Unfortunately, the ceiling/floor is paper thin. I heard TV coming from above or below almost every night. It's also bad on weekend nights when everyone is partying.

This goes into my next point. It's rare to hear the people on the street. If they're audible it's easy to zone them out. However, the people partying are very audible. On Thursday/Friday/Saturday night there will almost always be a party. It's damn annoying if you're trying to get work done.

All of the rest of your points are exceptions to the rule. The Tower is a nice place to live and exceptionally convenient.

[hiima3L]

On another note, I'm curious to find out how bad the day-to-day Tower life is. I saw a 12th floor studio when I visited, which looked bigger than expected and fairly nice (minus the kitchenette thing). This was obviously just a quick look through and part of the pitch. Two additional things I noticed: noise is very loud in the hallway (figured it was because of the large crowd) and it was very hot throughout. I've read that the walls/ceilings are very thin, outside crackheads are loud (especially heard from the lower floors), and internet is unreliable (do a lot of students end up getting their own?). Exceptions or commonplace?

I lived there 1L year and it was overall a great experience. It's definitely overpriced, but the convenience of waking up at 9:35am for a 9:40 class more than made up for it. I lived far from campus 2L year, but moved back to the area 3L year, and I highly suggest living close.

My room was ALWAYS warm. I literally never closed the window. I ended up moving out because it was so goddamn noisy because there are sirens 24/7/365 because Market is a straight shot through the city. But the noise completely depends on which way your apt. faces; my friend's that faces Golden Gate/Hyde is never noisy, but mine was right on Leavenworth and was the reason I moved out. It drove me nuts. The walls are also totally paper thin (I heard my neighbor and her bf doing it almost every day), but no one ever seems to have problems with noisy neighbors.

All that said, I know plenty of people who lived there all 3 years and were very happy with it. It really depends on your personality and whether the cost-benefit works out. I think living there 1L year is a great idea though cuz it makes meeting people much easier.

[lucield]

if anyone is interested in living out in the boonies (not that far, but its about a 30 minute bus ride and a completely boring area of the city) i paid 625 in rent with all utilities and internet and room to park. it was amazing. i can give you the information, just send me a pm.

[elisedfra]

I'm starting my housing search and realize that the tower is no longer an option. Is anyone else looking for a Hastings roommate for the fall school year? I'm moving up from SoCal and plan on taking a trip pretty soon up to SF to see what my options are. If anyone is interested in a 2 bedroom apartment, or something similar, let me know. Thanks!

[kapital98]

I'm starting my housing search and realize that the tower is no longer an option. Is anyone else looking for a Hastings roommate for the fall school year? I'm moving up from SoCal and plan on taking a trip pretty soon up to SF to see what my options are. If anyone is interested in a 2 bedroom apartment, or something similar, let me know. Thanks!

People on the waitlist do get off it. I applied sometime in late May last year and still got an acceptance by early July. It doesn't hurt to send in a rent request.

[apollo2015]

I've heard chatter about apartments being scarcer (and thus rents higher) this year due to the mini-tech boom that's started due to Twitter and Friends and the Facebook money sloshing around.

[ilovesf]

I've heard chatter about apartments being scarcer (and thus rents higher) this year due to the mini-tech boom that's started due to Twitter and Friends and the Facebook money sloshing around.

I'm sure if you look in areas like inner Richmond (which are still easily accessible by the 38 or 5) then you'll be fine. I have a few friends that live out there and like it. Not really a techny neighborhood, a lot of those people live in SOMA.

[hiima3L]

I've heard chatter about apartments being scarcer (and thus rents higher) this year due to the mini-tech boom that's started due to Twitter and Friends and the Facebook money sloshing around.

It's an insane seller's market right now. It took me 6 weeks to find a place last summer, and I only found one because a friend of a friend had a roommate moving out.

But I agree with ilovesf. The Inner Richmond is one of the best neighborhoods in the city IMO and you really get a good deal for the cost. $700-800 can get you a nice room in a nice apt in a nice neighborhood. The commute can take a while because the 38 and the 5 are two of the most congested and terrible buses to commute on, but they're both very frequent and will take you 30 mins tops. I'd suggest living close to the 38 because it's 24/7 and the only way you can get back to the Richmond late at night.

[lisavj]

Also happy to share outlines...though doing them yourself can help you learn the material. Have to brag and say my K outline/flowcharts are pretty baller.

Profs: Rappaport, Reiss, Rao, Levine, Field, Lefstin, Obasogie (fair warning: don't rely on my outline for this one, lowest grade in LS ).

edit: PM me with your email if you have any of those profs...

[Mick Haller]

I am a recent grad currently studying for the bar. I'm only checking intermittently, but feel free to PM if you have questions.

I've lived in the East Bay the whole 3 years, so I can give commute/places to live advice.

[apollo2015]

Also happy to share outlines...though doing them yourself can help you learn the material. Have to brag and say my K outline/flowcharts are pretty baller.

Profs: Rappaport, Reiss, Rao, Levine, Field, Lefstin, Obasogie (fair warning: don't rely on my outline for this one, lowest grade in LS ).

edit: PM me with your email if you have any of those profs...

Awesome!

We find out our classes on August 3rd, so I will be sure to take you wonderful ladies and gentlemen up on your outline offers then.