Minimum Tax Courses Required Forum

[Anonymous User]

HYS 2L summering at a top DC firm and interested in their tax practice (not sure if more interested in planning or controversy yet). What is the minimum number of upper level tax courses I’d need to be able to join the tax group? After 2L I would’ve only taken basic tax (although i studied accounting). Is corporate tax and international tax enough? How about just corporate? My school only offers corporate, partnership, and international and only one section of each; unfortunately due to conflicts with other courses I could only take 2 at most and it’d be ideal if i could get by with just taking corporate. I spoke to a mid level who told me I only needed to take one upper level course but I’d like more data of course; and I’m sure partners are the best to ask but I don’t know how to ask this question without seeming uninterested in tax or lazy.

[dabigchina]

Corporate by the end of 2L is more than fine. I would try to take international and partnership before you graduate because they actually are very useful classes.

[Anonymous User]

To clarify, I am going into summer having only taken federal income tax. I am asking if I could be invited to join a tax group post law school either only taking corporate (seems like a stretch, but again, a mid-level in the group said I really only needed one upper-level tax course), or some combination like: corporate + partnership, corporate + int'l, partnership + int'l. Don't think I can take all 3 during 3L but depending on how summer goes I may want to practice tax (really liked federal income tax but of course will need to try over summer to know whether I really like it). There are no other upper-level tax courses at my school besides these 3. Of the three, leaning msot against taking international currently since there are only 32 hours of lecture (2 credit course); also I'd imagine partnership is more foundational since it covers all pass-throughs

[Trout et al]

If you're actually interested in working as a tax attorney then take all of them. If you want to take other classes during 3L instead then maybe your interest actually is ... in those other areas of the law?

That said, I think the answer will be group dependent, particularly in DC. Figure out what the partners do in the tax group and let that guide your choice. If your firm is mainly doing big company M&A deals then corporate tax is important. If a lot of real estate, energy, or fund stuff, then take partnership tax. If its a very diverse practice then I'd prioritize partnership tax over corporate tax simply because it would be more difficult to learn on the job. If your group does any cross border planning then I would not leave law school without taking international tax.

Good luck.

[Sackboy]

I'd take all three. I can nearly guarantee you that whatever class you have that conflicts is probably far less important to hitting the ground running as a tax attorney. I'm sure you'll be fine with just corporate, but if you want to be a tax attorney then now is a really good time to dig into the IRC and grapple with tax concepts. You probably won't retain too much by the time you get to practice, but you'll have a better grasp of some of the concepts within the code and be able to pick it back up again very quickly. Learning the code is a lot like riding the bike.

[dabigchina]

Speaking as a tax lawyer, if you can't bring yourself to slog through int'l, partnership, and corporate tax, I would question whether you would like practicing tax law.

[Anonymous User]

Partnership tax is usually very difficult to pick up on the fly, and as someone else mentioned, you should take it if you plan to do any funds (formation or deal work), energy, or real estate work. Corporate tax isn’t a cakewalk, either, but it’s easier to pick up piecemeal or independently. International can also be a morass that is greatly aided by formal coursework, but you may not get a ton of mileage from it without corporate tax as a foundation. But seriously, if you ever plan to do partnership tax, take the class.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses. I guess the biggest issue is that I THINK I am interested in tax but not committed since I’ve only taken FIT and mot done any tax work—so it seems like alot to register for all the tax courses right now, especially when they are all only offered once so they conflict with good sections of evidence, easy GPA lifting courses, etc. Also i had wanted to do an internship at the IRS because whatever practice i choose the goal is government ultimately. I guess i will plan to take all of them and no IRS internship since that’s probably not essential, and do more research as well as reflect on how i like my assignments this summer to see if i wanna go through with this. This would have been alot easier had i known i was interested in tax earlier since I would’ve taken another tax course 2L.

[L'orDuCommun]

To second what everybody else said, tax is hard and the more learning you do upfront through formal classes, the easier it is (1) to practice tax law (there's a reason why many tax attorneys get LLMs) and (2) to learn more tax law on your own while practicing. If you've got a good foundation in corporate and partnership tax, then learning the REIT rules on the fly, for instance, isn't hard. Even the consolidated return rules, which are really hard, are a little easier to grasp if you've taken partnership (given some conceptual similarities).

Generally, the more substantive tax law you know, the better off you'll be and also the more you'll be able to enjoy practicing. But it also helps to have spent hours and hours slogging through the Code and the regs. while in law school. It builds up your "tax stamina" and helps you see the forest rather than the trees when you encounter a new tax topic while practicing.

EDIT: Of course you can always do an LLM, so if you do like tax, don't let the fact that you won't be able to take all the available classes while in law school discourage you!

[ghostoftraynor]

Thanks for the responses. I guess the biggest issue is that I THINK I am interested in tax but not committed since I’ve only taken FIT and mot done any tax work—so it seems like alot to register for all the tax courses right now, especially when they are all only offered once so they conflict with good sections of evidence, easy GPA lifting courses, etc. Also i had wanted to do an internship at the IRS because whatever practice i choose the goal is government ultimately. I guess i will plan to take all of them and no IRS internship since that’s probably not essential, and do more research as well as reflect on how i like my assignments this summer to see if i wanna go through with this. This would have been alot easier had i known i was interested in tax earlier since I would’ve taken another tax course 2L.

Doesn't your school let you add/drop? And presumably at least one of these is offered in the spring? You really don't need to plan your entire 3L now.

Not sure I understand the dilemma. We are talking about 8 credits total. Plan on taking them now and you can fill the rest of your schedule with fluff. If you hate tax as a summer and decide against it, you can ultimately not take any of them.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses. I guess the biggest issue is that I THINK I am interested in tax but not committed since I’ve only taken FIT and mot done any tax work—so it seems like alot to register for all the tax courses right now, especially when they are all only offered once so they conflict with good sections of evidence, easy GPA lifting courses, etc. Also i had wanted to do an internship at the IRS because whatever practice i choose the goal is government ultimately. I guess i will plan to take all of them and no IRS internship since that’s probably not essential, and do more research as well as reflect on how i like my assignments this summer to see if i wanna go through with this. This would have been alot easier had i known i was interested in tax earlier since I would’ve taken another tax course 2L.

Doesn't your school let you add/drop? And presumably at least one of these is offered in the spring? You really don't need to plan your entire 3L now.

Not sure I understand the dilemma. We are talking about 8 credits total. Plan on taking them now and you can fill the rest of your schedule with fluff. If you hate tax as a summer and decide against it, you can ultimately not take any of them.

Good idea I will do this then.

[2013]

It sounds like you’re not really interested in tax, but read on here that tax is going to be generally safe in a down economy and thought it may be a good idea.

While I believe that’s true, people who do tax without liking it absolutely hate doing the work. I know a few people who have started in tax and quickly switched over to corporate/m&a.

[Anonymous User]

I'm an incoming international tax associate specializing in funds (PE mostly and some HF) with a tax LLM.
Here are my thoughts/experiences for whatever they're worth:

I never took an accounting class in my life but always liked tax planning, especially with respect to real estate. I took a few JD tax classes before enrolling in my school's joint JD/LLM program. My first LLM tax class was corporate tax. I did well in bus orgs and thought I understood corporate law enough to understand corporate tax. I was very wrong. I did very badly in corporate tax because I didn't understand the language of the Code or the language of accounting (the professor explained earnings and profits as akin to retained earnings but I didn't know what retained earnings were). I could follow and understand the basic tax rules, especially with respect to distributions, but I wasn't really able to follow the fact patterns and thus couldn't issue-spot appropriately.

After a terrible performance in corporate tax, I took the rest of my LLM classes from what I thought would be the easiest to the hardest: Tax I --> Tax II --> Tax Controversy and saving partnership taxation for last. After I felt like I had a good background in tax, I took a few electives (real estate, estate planning, etc.). Following this plan, I earned a 3.75 gpa my first semester as a full time LLM student (shocking because I was a 3.0 curve JD student). I saved partnership taxation for last because it was taught by a professor who I thought would be very hard (he was a retired NYC Big4 Partner-in-Charge of a partnership/funds group) and I was terrified to take the class because of how badly I did in corporate tax. I got an A- in partnership.

The director of the LLM program subsequently asked me how I brought up my grades so dramatically from my first two LLM classes to the rest of my LLM classes. My response was that by the time I got to partnership taxation, I understood the language the Code/regs and the underlying accounting principles necessary to be able to focus on the partnership tax principles instead of trying to figure out the background information. I also learned how to learn tax, which I thought was very different from learning doctrinal JD classes like Con law or contracts.

Interestingly, I never took an international tax class. However, when I summered as an international tax associate, I had never heard of the terms CFC and PFIC, and I had certainly never heard of GILTI, FIDII, or BEAT. I had never seen a tax treaty and initially didn't realize a "double tax treaty" wasn't the same as a "regular" tax treaty. However, none of that mattered. I bought international taxation in nutshell and read a few of the chapters, which gave me a good foundation. I did a lot of PFIC work during my summer (probably close to a dozen deals over my 12 weeks) and picked everything up quickly. Because of my tax foundation and my understanding of the Code and regs, I felt like I was able to pick up the new tax concepts fairly easily (with a lot of self studying).*

All that said, I would highly recommend you take as many "foundational" tax classes as you can (corporate tax, partnership tax, etc). Those classes will give you the foundation to be able to learn new concepts more efficiently, especially if you're trying to learn them in practice.

* EDIT: this is not to say that international tax isn't hard--it's very hard. I just felt like from my limited experience practicing in that area for 12 weeks, I was able to learn what I needed to learn on the fly (by doing a lot of self study and reading as much as I could).

[Anonymous User]

It sounds like you’re not really interested in tax, but read on here that tax is going to be generally safe in a down economy and thought it may be a good idea.

While I believe that’s true, people who do tax without liking it absolutely hate doing the work. I know a few people who have started in tax and quickly switched over to corporate/m&a.

that’s not the case, what happened is I took federal income tax and really liked it and also did quite well; i also met with some tax associates and they seemed like the happiest bunch i spoke to and kept saying the QOL was materially better than lit/white collar at the firm (my other interest). I also like how it seems like a mix of regulatory type work in addition corporate, at least in DC; I like research and writing alot. Lastly, I like that there seem to be some cool exit options that are not just in house, which is why i previously did not want corp (I am very interested in government eventually). Not really worried about a down economy as I still have a year before i graduate and even then i plan on clerking for a year or two.

[nealric]

I'd speak with the partners in your tax group for their recommendations if possible. I suspect they will recommend the standard foundational courses, but they may have idiosyncratic things they'd like you to know due to their specific practices. However, in general, I'd say any new tax lawyer would benefit from:

Tax I (what you've already taken)
Corporate Income Tax I (covering topics related to formation and operations like 351, E&P, etc.)
Corporate Income Tax II (covering reorgs and other transactions) (some schools combine these courses)
Partnership Tax (most people find this course very difficult, but it will be easier for those that have an accounting background)
International Tax (some schools split inbound and outbound and some schools combine). Most firms will do more outbound if you have to pick between the two.
Tax Accounting (this course is really about issues relating to timing of income and expenses- different from accounting for lawyers and tax accounting for financial reporting purposes (i.e. ASC 740))


You might also benefit from (depending on your firm's practice):
Tax controversy - often done as a workshop
Exempt organizations (especially if your firm works with a lot of pension funds)
ERISA and Executive Comp (can be helpful to have a basic working knowledge as a tax lawyer)
SALT
Transfer pricing
An advanced class in international M&A issues (367, etc.)
A real estate taxation course (covering REITS and real-estate specific planning concerns)- best taken after partnership tax

[nealric]

Interestingly, I never took an international tax class. However, when I summered as an international tax associate, I had never heard of the terms CFC and PFIC, and I had certainly never heard of GILTI, FIDII, or BEAT.

Well, nobody had ever heard of GILTI FIDII or BEAT before December 2017 because they didn't exist

But that's one nice thing about being a new tax lawyer. You can learn new provisions like these at the same time as practitioners. New provisions are where your knowledge can exceed those of the more senior lawyers. I know several tax lawyers who were nearing retirement when the TCJA was passed and more or less decided they had no interest in getting up to speed on it.