Bombed first semester (PLEASE READ) Forum

[As2havz]

1L. My GPA now sits at a 3.2, which is .1 below the 50% median for last year. I am on pace to get an A- in LW, but could possibly get an A depending on how I did on our long memo (don't get our grades until this semester is over). I am feeling shocked and distraught. How screwed am I?

[cavalier1138]

Well, you have a whole semester to improve your GPA, so take a breath. But assuming you stay at a 3.2, it depends on what you want to do. So what kind of job are you aiming for?

[QContinuum]

First, you didn't "bomb" first semester! You're sitting 0.1 below median, and, though it's always risky to count your chickens before they hatch, you'd likely climb back up to median should you actually get an A- or A in LW as you predict. You did well in Crim (and hopefully LW), got a solid grade in Contracts, and really only did (relatively) poorly in one course, Property. Don't beat yourself up.

Second, you absolutely aren't "screwed". You're at one of the strongest T1 schools in the country. Yes, with a 3.2, you aren't going to be competitive for BigLaw (unless you're a URM, or have a tech background and are shooting for IP). But you're still well in the running for good legal jobs, and you could very well improve in second semester to the point where BigLaw becomes a realistic possibility.

[As2havz]

Should clarify, am a URM and want BL, but am in no way banking on URM status for BL nor was I even aware really that had an effect. Thank you for the replies so far.

[Wild Card]

A- is very impressive, and being a URM gives you a massive boost in biglaw hiring, so not to worry. Keep on aiming for those A-s.

[raven1231]

Should clarify, am a URM and want BL, but am in no way banking on URM status for BL nor was I even aware really that had an effect. Thank you for the replies so far.

It certainly does, just as it does with LSAT scores and law school acceptance. As others have said you still are sitting in an alright spot. You are far from screwed.

[Anon-non-anon]

Agreed with all of the above. Unlucky the class you did worst in was worth 4 credits, but also, it's kind of a running joke among lawyers that property is an awful class (I disagree personally, but it's still a popular opinion), so if you're asked about it you can joke around about the rule against perpetuities being BS and highlight your other grades, especially if you get a good one in your writing class.

[LSATWiz.com]

If you're a minority then median or better from Fordham is a very good place to be in. Granted, this is old data but 80% of URM's were in the bottom 20% according to a 2010 study that looked on whether the URM boost actually obtains its intended purpose of increasing diversity in the legal industry. Because 5 point variances in LSAC scores correlate well to 1L grades, this data is probably not substantially outdated.

The point of all of this is that firms want to be more diverse, might specifically be looking to hire URM's from your school, and there may not be many options above-median so anything above a 3.3 puts you in very good shape. One can argue that URM awareness of the URM boost offsets much of the benefit as most people are only motivated to work to the extent they need to in order to obtain their goals. As we rarely perform quite as well goals, you always want to push for the highest goal possible so look for ways to improve, but a 3.2 at Fordham isn't anything to be fearful of in light of the fact you're a URM.

[QContinuum]

A- is very impressive, and being a URM gives you a massive boost in biglaw hiring, so not to worry. Keep on aiming for those A-s.

This. I second Wild Card's and LSATWiz' posts above. Being a URM gives a tremendous boost at OCI. Firms are desperate to increase diversity. Currently, Fordham's placing a massive 52% of its class into BigLaw. That means that even non-URM median students have a fighting chance at BigLaw (though non-URM students would probably want to be in the top ~40% to be "safe", and even that assumes there isn't an economic downturn). Certainly a URM student at - or even slightly below - median would be in the catbird seat re: landing BigLaw.

[As2havz]

A- is very impressive, and being a URM gives you a massive boost in biglaw hiring, so not to worry. Keep on aiming for those A-s.

This. I second Wild Card's and LSATWiz' posts above. Being a URM gives a tremendous boost at OCI. Firms are desperate to increase diversity. Currently, Fordham's placing a massive 52% of its class into BigLaw. That means that even non-URM median students have a fighting chance at BigLaw (though non-URM students would probably want to be in the top ~40% to be "safe", and even that assumes there isn't an economic downturn). Certainly a URM student at - or even slightly below - median would be in the catbird seat re: landing BigLaw.

First of all, thank you so much everyone for your insight. Does type of URM matter like in application for school? For example, AAs and Native Americans getting a larger boost than MA? I don't intend at all to bank on any of the URM stuff and just want to do my best, but am just curious how all of this works.

[QContinuum]

First of all, thank you so much everyone for your insight. Does type of URM matter like in application for school? For example, AAs and Native Americans getting a larger boost than MA? I don't intend at all to bank on any of the URM stuff and just want to do my best, but am just curious how all of this works.

My rough, anecdotal, sense is probably the following:
Large Boost
African-American
Hispanic
Native American

Small to Moderate Boost
LG
Women

No Boost
Asian-American (including South Asians and Indians)
BTQIA

African-Americans and Native Americans will get a large boost everywhere. Hispanics probably get a large boost at some firms, and a moderate boost at others. (Unlike with law school admissions, law firms are unlikely to give special preference to Mexican-Americans and Puerto Ricans over other Hispanics.) LG may get a moderate boost at some firms, and a small or no boost at other places. (While firms typically refer to "LGBT" or "LGBTQ" or even the more modern "LGBTQIA", I've never heard of any boost for folks in the B, T, Q, I, or A "buckets".) Asians, especially South Asians, may get a small to moderate boost at some firms. Women may get anywhere from no boost to a moderate boost (usually no boost for traditional lit/corp. groups, but a small to moderate boost for practice areas that are still largely male-dominated, such as "hard" IP).

U.S. citizenship or permanent residency is critical. Lack of citizenship/permanent residency will wipe out any diversity-related boost that would otherwise be granted and, in addition, will be an additional hurdle to overcome.

[LSATWiz.com]

I'd just add that a firm's definition of URM won't necessarily match a law school's definition in that some may give a URM boost to Asian or South Americans, particularly if they have clients in these countries and don't want to have to dip too far below a grade threshold while still promoting their diversity program, but the biggest boost is probably being black.

However, personality does seem to factor in. I don't want to generalize from a small sample but I never met a black attorney at a top-250 law firm who was awkward or not charming. I do think firms may be more cognizant of fit when it comes to hiring URM candidates, because as bad as it sounds, that's who they want to put on their promotional materials as it masks the fact they may only represent 10 of 1,000 lawyers at a firm. I do also think that hiring reclusive URM applicants can give the image that the firm has a segregative environment so it is probably important to be or at least pretend to be friendly. This is probably true regardless of race, but does at least seem to be something people think about. Everyone from my alma matter who got these jobs was bubbly and happy, and it's possible they're the ones who got the better grades, but that every URM I've met seems bubbly and happy suggests these may be specifically desired traits.

The reality, though, is you can't control your personality nearly as much as you can control your grades so putting yourself as close to or above median as possible is always the ideal outcome.

[bblawyer]

Fordham 1L. Got an A- in Crim (3 hours), a B+ in contracts (5 hours), got my Property grade (4 hours) back.....B-. My GPA now sits at a 3.2, which is .1 below the 50% median for last year. I am on pace to get an A- in LW, but could possibly get an A depending on how I did on our long memo (don't get our grades until this semester is over). I am feeling shocked and distraught. How screwed am I?

Fordham law grad here - feel free to PM me if you want to chat more specifically. Perhaps anecdotally, I know more than a few people who were disappointed first semester (similarly around a 3.2), but then turned around and crushed the second semester (straight As). The reverse is also true - some people crush first semester and get complacent and bomb second semester. the important thing is understanding why you got a b- in property so you kdon't repeat the same mistakes you made. meet with your professor and go over your exam and understand what happened. i think it would be worth meeting with your contracts professor to do the same.

[QContinuum]

Fordham law grad here - feel free to PM me if you want to chat more specifically. Perhaps anecdotally, I know more than a few people who were disappointed first semester (similarly around a 3.2), but then turned around and crushed the second semester (straight As). The reverse is also true - some people crush first semester and get complacent and bomb second semester. the important thing is understanding why you got a b- in property so you kdon't repeat the same mistakes you made. meet with your professor and go over your exam and understand what happened. i think it would be worth meeting with your contracts professor to do the same.

While I didn't attend Fordham, I think the whole law school grades thing is pretty universal. In my view, perhaps even more important than figuring out the B- is figuring out the A-. I, personally, found it much easier to "replicate success" than to "learn from failure". From the B- exam, at most, OP can learn what not to do - but it doesn't tell them what to do. In contrast, from the A- exam, OP can use their successful exam-taking and studying/outlining strategy as a model in future classes.

(There is an element of randomness in law school grades, of course, and it's also important not to overanalyze a single grade - either the B- or the A- - but, still, I've never found law school grades to be completely random. The randomness comes in for exams on the B+/A- border, or the B/B+ border, etc. A B- and A- are far enough apart that I'm pretty sure it wasn't just down to random chance or idiosyncratic grading.)

[Mls33]

Big law at fordham is almost always top third.
Gpa... pls fix

[QContinuum]

Big law at fordham is almost always top third.
Gpa... pls fix

That's what it's placed historically. Currently, Fordham's placing much more strongly - record numbers, really. 52.6% of the class of '18 landed either BigLaw or a federal clerkship. See https://www.fordham.edu/download/downlo ... _Stamp.pdf

It's not clear yet whether its current placement strength is the new normal or a temporary anomaly.

[FND]

Big law at fordham is almost always top third.
Gpa... pls fix

Correction - a third of the school places into biglaw. Keep in mind that not everyone is gunning for biglaw, and there are also people who just bomb the interview.
Median is (barely) good enough for the smaller biglaw firms, though the candidate would need to be perfect in every other way. On the other hand, the most exclusive firms won't talk to anyone who isn't top 10%.