Advice for moving to a focus on PI/Govt starting 2L year? Forum

[terpiscore]

Hello, all. Man, I always feel weird saying so much about myself. I feel like it would be easy to figure out where I am, but oh well, here it goes, haha. And I'm sorry if this post turns out being incredibly long.

BACKGROUND:

I've been reading a lot on this forum and talking to people and was wanting to get some more individualized advice for how to be more successful in getting PI/govt work after graduation. I'm at a regional T2 (somewhere in the South/Midwest sort of area) and am in the top 5% after my 1L year (which I just finished).

For my 1L summer I'm doing a split summer. The first half I'm externing for a District Judge and the second half I'm studying abroad in Japan. I chose to extern because I figured it would be a prestigious thing to do 1L summer plus I wanted to actually be in a courtroom and learn about federal issues (employment law, environmental law...). I am studying abroad because I have been studying Japanese for the last decade and just really wanted to go to Japan. That's mostly it. Plus, I figured I could make some connections which may lead to other opportunities. It is especially nice that I will be meeting one of my professors there who specializes in a certain field of Japanese law. So I'm happy about it. NOTE: A couple of the classes I'm taking during study abroad are more "corporate" (negotiation and arbitration), so I'm wondering if that will hurt me in looking for PI work.

Before law school, I worked at a solo firm. I graduated with a BS in environmental science. I got less interested in environmental science during the last half of undergrad because I really didn't want to be a scientist. I went to law school mostly because I wanted to do something different than science and I like law in general. And I relatively enjoyed working at the firm I was at.

I figured I may get more interested in environmental issues after I got into law school just because I would finally be able to do something else in the field that wasn't pure science. And that has kind of happened. I think I am kind of one of those people 1L year who had this idea of what I wanted to do (small/solo firm, or PI or something; I barely even knew what "big law" was) but got kind of sucked into the whole "I have very good grades and everyone always talks about big firms, so I should definitely do that" sort of thing. All I thought about spring semester was how to prepare for big/mid firm work. However, working for a big firm just really doesn't actually SOUND like the kind of life I want. I would really like to do something where I can help individuals more or work in a fed/state agency doing environmental or some sort of work that is important to the public. That's what I cared more about before I came to law school.

During undergrad, I was involved in environmental student groups on campus and worked for my school's sustainability office. I also spent the last 2-3 years volunteering for a couple local arts organizations.

~~~
So I'm trying to go into 2L year focusing on PI/govt work but don't really know HOW to do that as a 2L. We have clinics, but the big ones require about 4 prerequisite classes before you can take them, none of which I have taken. I could take them all first 2L semester, but I think it would make for a very stressful schedule with the other things I have to do. So if I don't take all of them, I wouldn't really be able to do a clinic until 3L year probably. So I'm wondering how else I can show a "commitment" to PI/govt work if I am not able to do a clinic 2L year. I applies for some local government council positions but did not get any of them. I could find some organizations to volunteer with, but I feel like Legal Aid would be the best and I previously turned down an interview for a Legal Aid externship in the fall (whyyy).

I also have graded on to law review (haven't gotten the letter yet, but know I will) which I was set on doing, but now I'm not so sure if it's the best thing to do because people have said my time would be better spent volunteering. But I always worry that if I declined it but couldn't get into PI, it would harm my chances of finding other work. What if I was on LR and tried to right about some sort of PI issue?

And as far as classes are concerned, is it good to show a "commitment" to a certain area of law? Or should I just take things that seem like they would be helpful for legal aid sort of work in general? Is taking stuff like "animal law" a bad idea? That seems to be a PI sort of thing. I was thinking of just concentrating on environmental/housing/land sorts of classes. And I'm definitely taking Admin Law because I'm really interested in learning about agencies.

I also don't really know what to do about OCI. If I'm going to go more PI/govt, do I just not do OCI? Our OCI is smaller than most T1 schools' and is mostly big/mid regional firms. But I'm not really sure how to find a 2L summer job then or what I should apply to. I'm not really looking at the competitive DOJ sort of things. I would be happy during 2L/after graduation doing some sort of PI/legal aid/state or federal agency sort of work.

I also don't really like the thought of not making any money 2L year or summer because I'm doing volunteer sorts of positions. Not because I don't want to do those sorts of things, but I'm just really used to having a job and making money. Oh! That's another thing. I also have no debt right now and will graduate with no loans. So I am not really concerned with getting a starting job making a lot of money. In this region, I would be content with a starting salary around $40K or maybe even less. I would be fine working in the Midwest-ish region and in more rural/less desirable areas.

One last concern I have is that I have some health issues that have made it hard to even work at my externship more than 5-6 hours a day without being in a lot of pain. I'm working on it, but it's been a very slow process in curing the issue. So for 2L year and summer I have been freaking out at the thought of jobs and of doing too many classes that make my life extremely difficult, especially considering my health is not in tip-top shape.

~~~
I would appreciate any advice I can get, and to anyone who has read this far, thanks for reading my super long post!

[encore1101]

Regarding the 2L clinic(s), assuming that you took the pre-requisite courses, would you able to sign up for those clinics during the Spring semester? And why did you decline the Legal Aid externship interview?

[terpiscore]

I honestly am not sure why I declined it. I think it was because I got the District Court externship this summer and thought I would save my externship hours for my school's capstone externship program. Basically, you can do a full-time externship for up to 12 credit hours. I was thinking of doing that 3L year last semester so I could get a job/externship in another city somewhere that may hopefully lead to a job after graduation. So I would basically only be able to take a 9 credit hour externship plus an online class. So I was thinking I didn't want to decrease that amount.

And yes, I could sign up for clinics in the spring if I took those three classes in the fall. It's actually three classes I need, now that I think about it. Four if you count Trial Ad, which you need for the Crim Law clinic.

I know that may be what I have to do, I was just really hoping not to overcrowd my 2L fall schedule in case I do Law Review and try to volunteer/work as well. And because I still have health issues that I don't think will be completely cured by 2L fall semester. Oh, AND because I really want to take Admin Law too, which is only being offered in the fall.

[encore1101]

From my experience (in NYC), PI/Gov't agencies look very favorably on someone who has a history of: working at their agency > working at a similar agency > working at any agency in same field > working at any agency. Part of that may be a local thing as a result of students not getting the job they want and seeing PI/Gov't agencies as a fallback, however, so it may be different in your market. My advice, however, is based on that premise.

From best to worst, IMO:

The 2L Spring clinic idea, I think, is the best route to go. Without knowing your health problems, it's not impossible to juggle a job, a journal, and a heavy courseload, but you'll probably be very busy for those months. You can probably wait to take Admin Law, as your job prospects, even if you're looking to go into a fed. agency, probably won't hinge on whether you took Admin law ASAP.

Alternatively, you could look for an internship at a PI/Gov't agency during the school year, when your health issues are resolved and to avoid overloading one semester. The downside to this is that, I find that hosts to clinics tend to hire former students who were involved in the clinic (not always, but there's a definite trend).

Both scenarios assume your 2L summer and 3L externship are PI/Gov't-related, as well. You could also just not do any internship/clinic during the school year, but that would, of course, decrease your chances.

[A. Nony Mouse]

There are lots of different kinds of PI internships out there and you still have lots of time to line up something that's not your school's clinics for next fall and/or spring. There's state AG, local non-profits (does your law school city host branches of things like Earthjustice, ACLU, immigrants' rights groups, workers' rights groups?), state or local government, and doubtless other things I'm forgetting. (It may depend a little on location but I'm assuming there's a city there.) I just think it's a little early to say you just didn't get anything, especially if you throw spring semester into the mix - I was applying for fall internships in August.

Also four classes doesn't seem to me like overloading your schedule - admin and whatever the other three are you need for the spring clinic if you want to go that route - although of course I don't know your health issues. It just seems to me that anything less than 4 classes wouldn't even be full time.

[terpiscore]

From my experience (in NYC), PI/Gov't agencies look very favorably on someone who has a history of: working at their agency > working at a similar agency > working at any agency in same field > working at any agency. Part of that may be a local thing as a result of students not getting the job they want and seeing PI/Gov't agencies as a fallback, however, so it may be different in your market. My advice, however, is based on that premise.

From best to worst, IMO:

The 2L Spring clinic idea, I think, is the best route to go. Without knowing your health problems, it's not impossible to juggle a job, a journal, and a heavy courseload, but you'll probably be very busy for those months. You can probably wait to take Admin Law, as your job prospects, even if you're looking to go into a fed. agency, probably won't hinge on whether you took Admin law ASAP.

Alternatively, you could look for an internship at a PI/Gov't agency during the school year, when your health issues are resolved and to avoid overloading one semester. The downside to this is that, I find that hosts to clinics tend to hire former students who were involved in the clinic (not always, but there's a definite trend).

Both scenarios assume your 2L summer and 3L externship are PI/Gov't-related, as well. You could also just not do any internship/clinic during the school year, but that would, of course, decrease your chances.

Yes, I'm going to try my best to get a PI/govt job for 2L summer and for my 3L externship. I think you're right about the spring clinic thing. I guess Admin Law can wait; I was just so excited to do it (that's probably not something you hear everyday). I feel like I will be learning everything backwards because I'll probably take 1-2 agency/admin law heavy subject courses in the spring. But I know it won't be a big deal if I don't have Admin Law before taking those. My health is more important.

So do you think I should definitely do LR? Just wandering since you mentioned juggling a journal in your reply. I would like to, I'm just worried about the whole overloading thing. Is there anyway to spin LR so that it helps PI/govt job searching? Like focusing on a PI/govt-important topic or something?

There are lots of different kinds of PI internships out there and you still have lots of time to line up something that's not your school's clinics for next fall and/or spring. There's state AG, local non-profits (does your law school city host branches of things like Earthjustice, ACLU, immigrants' rights groups, workers' rights groups?), state or local government, and doubtless other things I'm forgetting. (It may depend a little on location but I'm assuming there's a city there.) I just think it's a little early to say you just didn't get anything, especially if you throw spring semester into the mix - I was applying for fall internships in August.

Also four classes doesn't seem to me like overloading your schedule - admin and whatever the other three are you need for the spring clinic if you want to go that route - although of course I don't know your health issues. It just seems to me that anything less than 4 classes wouldn't even be full time.

In August? Okay, cool. I'll try not to freak out about not having one as soon as fall semester starts. I'll probably go talk to my Career office about what sorts of things may be in the area, and some professors may know about some opportunities as well.

No, my school does not host Earthjustice, ACLU, or any organization like that. The most PI sort of thing we have besides clinics is a tiny, ongoing pro bono project drafting wills for elderly people or something of that nature. That's really it. As far as I know. This may just give away my school even more, but we do have some sort of American Indian Clinic or something, but I've never been sure who is in that or what people do in that clinic. They might be tied to some sort of organizations, but I'm not sure.

And, yeah, you're right, four classes probably isn't overloading a schedule. For most people. I think it might for me because of my health issues, which I know you don't know much about. But you're right overall. And less than four classes definitely isn't overloading.

If I just took the three substantive/Bar classes I need for my Clinic pre-reqs and did Law Review (which will be 1-2 credit hours), I would basically have an-almost full schedule. I'm taking a lot of summer classes so I don't technically have to take over 12 credit hours. I may end up doing that because it would actually give me 2 days without class (if I didn't do Admin Law).

I'm just not sure if doing those 3 major classes + LR would leave me the energy to do anything incredibly substantial volunteer/internship-wise. But I definitely think I could try.

~~~

Just another specific question for anyone. I know lots (or most) PI and govt 2L summer positions are probably unpaid, but to what degree is that true? I don't necessarily have to be paid, but I would prefer at least a stipend just because of the reality of life. I'm engaged right now but we aren't really saving money right now so couldn't really pay for a wedding atm. And we might have a situation next summer where we're paying double rent (hopefully not). What's the reality in terms of pay for any sort of PI/govt position during law school?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I was actually talking about stuff not connected to your school - there are plenty of organizations that will hire interns who don't create a relationship directly with your school. So just research what's out there and see what you can line up, without limiting yourself to stuff "hosted" by your school. Again, check with your local AG and all the local government divisions - most websites will have some kind of info about student positions. Also check out http://www.psjd.org/.

Most PI positions aren't going to pay. I know my state PD's office did paid internships for 2L summer; there was also a big program with our AG's office that might have offered stipends but I really can't remember. But I don't know of other stuff that did. Many schools offer some kind of stipend you can apply for if you're doing PI during the summer, and there are some fellowships (check out http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/ maybe?). But this is part of the reason why doing stuff during the school year is helpful, because you're already taking out loans so even if you don't make any money your COL is covered.

[terpiscore]

I was actually talking about stuff not connected to your school - there are plenty of organizations that will hire interns who don't create a relationship directly with your school. So just research what's out there and see what you can line up, without limiting yourself to stuff "hosted" by your school. Again, check with your local AG and all the local government divisions - most websites will have some kind of info about student positions. Also check out http://www.psjd.org/.

Most PI positions aren't going to pay. I know my state PD's office did paid internships for 2L summer; there was also a big program with our AG's office that might have offered stipends but I really can't remember. But I don't know of other stuff that did. Many schools offer some kind of stipend you can apply for if you're doing PI during the summer, and there are some fellowships (check out http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/ maybe?). But this is part of the reason why doing stuff during the school year is helpful, because you're already taking out loans so even if you don't make any money your COL is covered.

Oh, okay. Thank you for the resources; I will check into all of those things! And thank you for the advice.

I actually don't have any loans. But my fiance has a job, albeit barely more than minimum wage, so he makes almost enough for us to live off. So I'm just hoping we don't run out of money over the next two years. But I know, even though I'm saying all this, I could probably take out a small loan if I really had to. I'd just really rather not.

EDIT: If I was doing clinics during the school year but also took a part-time firm job, would that negatively affect my PI/govt career chances in the long-term?

[encore1101]

I was actually talking about stuff not connected to your school - there are plenty of organizations that will hire interns who don't create a relationship directly with your school. So just research what's out there and see what you can line up, without limiting yourself to stuff "hosted" by your school. Again, check with your local AG and all the local government divisions - most websites will have some kind of info about student positions. Also check out http://www.psjd.org/.

Most PI positions aren't going to pay. I know my state PD's office did paid internships for 2L summer; there was also a big program with our AG's office that might have offered stipends but I really can't remember. But I don't know of other stuff that did. Many schools offer some kind of stipend you can apply for if you're doing PI during the summer, and there are some fellowships (check out http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/ maybe?). But this is part of the reason why doing stuff during the school year is helpful, because you're already taking out loans so even if you don't make any money your COL is covered.

Oh, okay. Thank you for the resources; I will check into all of those things! And thank you for the advice.

I actually don't have any loans. But my fiance has a job, albeit barely more than minimum wage, so he makes almost enough for us to live off. So I'm just hoping we don't run out of money over the next two years. But I know, even though I'm saying all this, I could probably take out a small loan if I really had to. I'd just really rather not.

EDIT: If I was doing clinics during the school year but also took a part-time firm job, would that negatively affect my PI/govt career chances in the long-term?

In answer to your edit: no, hiring people would understand the practical nature of your decision. If they don't, it's probably not a place/culture you want to work for anyway.

As far as LR goes, it's hard to say. From my experience, PI/gov't agencies don't care if you have it or not. If I were you, the only reason I would go for it is to maintain the versatility of having it in case I change my mind about PI/gov't. FWIW, I'm at a gov't agency (prosecutor's office) and I didn't do LR/journal.

And I actually really enjoyed Admin Law, hehe.

[A. Nony Mouse]

And I actually really enjoyed Admin Law, hehe.

I did too.

[terpiscore]

I was actually talking about stuff not connected to your school - there are plenty of organizations that will hire interns who don't create a relationship directly with your school. So just research what's out there and see what you can line up, without limiting yourself to stuff "hosted" by your school. Again, check with your local AG and all the local government divisions - most websites will have some kind of info about student positions. Also check out http://www.psjd.org/.

Most PI positions aren't going to pay. I know my state PD's office did paid internships for 2L summer; there was also a big program with our AG's office that might have offered stipends but I really can't remember. But I don't know of other stuff that did. Many schools offer some kind of stipend you can apply for if you're doing PI during the summer, and there are some fellowships (check out http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/ maybe?). But this is part of the reason why doing stuff during the school year is helpful, because you're already taking out loans so even if you don't make any money your COL is covered.

Oh, okay. Thank you for the resources; I will check into all of those things! And thank you for the advice.

I actually don't have any loans. But my fiance has a job, albeit barely more than minimum wage, so he makes almost enough for us to live off. So I'm just hoping we don't run out of money over the next two years. But I know, even though I'm saying all this, I could probably take out a small loan if I really had to. I'd just really rather not.

EDIT: If I was doing clinics during the school year but also took a part-time firm job, would that negatively affect my PI/govt career chances in the long-term?

In answer to your edit: no, hiring people would understand the practical nature of your decision. If they don't, it's probably not a place/culture you want to work for anyway.

As far as LR goes, it's hard to say. From my experience, PI/gov't agencies don't care if you have it or not. If I were you, the only reason I would go for it is to maintain the versatility of having it in case I change my mind about PI/gov't. FWIW, I'm at a gov't agency (prosecutor's office) and I didn't do LR/journal.

And I actually really enjoyed Admin Law, hehe.

Alright, that's probably true.

I'll probably do LR. I think some weird part of me may actually enjoy it since it's something different from a plain old substantive class. And I really like editing things. We'll see.