2L, No Internship: Continue On or Leave? Forum

[throwawayjd17]

2L, T10 K-JD (MVPB), trying to determine whether to continue law school or take a leave of absence.

Grades are…bad. Bottom 15-20%, probably ~2.95. 2L grades have yet to come in – I hope there would be an improvement but I have no reason to expect any. I had a run of the mill judicial internship for my 1L summer, but I struck out at OCI and have yet to find anything for my 2L summer through mass mailing. A string of really unfortunately timed opportunities to interview led me to finish my 2L fall semester; otherwise, I doubt I would’ve. Since I’ve been in law school, every day feels like the beginning of another struggle that I have no motivation to finish. With each passing semester I lost a little more interest, but I went along with some really convincing arguments to try one more semester, leading me to feel as though I’ve stayed too long. Since my OCI strikeout, I’ve been in a self-imposed exile. I now live at home with my parents and commute to save money so I, quite frankly, have somebody to talk to. My confidence and sense of self-worth has been decimated so badly that it gets harder to face going to class every day. The feeling of abject failure both academically and professionally has caused me to lose my sense of self, and has left me trying to escape feelings of depression and crippling anxiety.

At this rate, I honestly have no desire to work for a law firm or non-profit at this point. I’d be willing to use the degree for something like financial analysis, compliance, policy work, or risk management, but honestly I don’t think I have the undergraduate background for most of them (liberal arts degree). Even if I did, the internship opportunities I’ve applied for in those areas have been about as unsuccessful as the rest. Because of my admittedly minimal financial obligations through this process (see below), I’ve been more than willing to compromise throughout this entire process. When it became apparent that my grades weren’t as I hoped in 1L year, I was very happy with taking a quasi-legal position.

I’d be more than willing to do a dual degree program in something useful (my law school has a joint program with a masters in IT that would help me transition into something techy), but I fear that my <3.0 law school GPA will seriously impact my ability to get into that program or, for that matter, any graduate program in the future. I’d like to transition into IT, and such a program would allow me to overcome the limitations of doing so with my liberal arts major. If I walked away from my law school altogether, I'd spend what money I have left getting a similar degree elsewhere.

The only upside for me is my financial situation. I have a very generous scholarship (roughly about 2/3 of tuition), but the amounts are staggered with each year, meaning my tuition fees after scholarships increase sizably every year. Personal savings have filled the gap, and will continue to for a short while – meaning I have no law school debt as of today. In fact, I actually still have $30k in savings, but if I continue law school, that money will turn into approximately $25k of student loans upon graduation. Additionally, I have no undergraduate debt.

So, if anyone could speak to any part of this shambolic story, I’d appreciate it: does anyone know if low law school grades severely impact any joint degree or future graduate degree candidacy? Should I stick it out, find literally anything for this summer, improve the grades, take a hit, and move on? Is a leave of absence career suicide? I feel like, given what I think is probably the emergence of clinical depression, I might seriously need one. I’m sorry if these questions aren’t really refined or targeted, but I feel completely out of options. If anyone can shed any light on any of these questions, I’d really appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

[mvp99]

Sounds like you should quit law school.

[Tls2016]

1st thing: you aren't out of options

2nd thing: deal with your depression. Being depressed makes it harder to make decisions. Getting bad grades in law school just means you don't do well on law school exams, it doesn't make you a failure or mean you aren't smart.

You realize that every school has a bottom 20%. No one ever expects to be in it, but you are not alone at all.

3rd thing:don't stay in law school if you hate it just because it's cheap. If you have no interest in being a lawyer, there is no reason to stay.

Personally I see no reason for you to continue and it'll very superficially it seems like the struggle to fit in is ruining your life. I would get out of law school and find healthier people to hang out with.

I suspect there are a lot of people who wish they had dropped out of law school. There are a lot of unhappy lawyers out there.

[CountingBlue]

Good luck! It sounds like you have a supportive family, did well in your undergrad, and are fine financially. Even if you scratch law and call it a total loss, you are at worst adding two years in the work force before you retire. Another way to look at it is that if you work 40 more years this is a 5 percent blimp in your trajectory. I think your concern if you decide to leave law school is to ensure this 2 year blip doesn't turn into a 15 year one (even then though that wouldn't be the end of the world as long as you do not develop a crippling drug habit, become a felon, or otherwise wreck you resume). I have known hard working folks who have shifted from law to data science, physics to animation, bar tending to accounting, psychology to statistics, and research to med school. In each case the switch was at least 4 years out of undergraduate and the folks came out fine at the other end.

My only argument for law school is if you are somehow confounding your hatred of law school for a aversion for the field of law. It sounds from your post, though that was not the case.

In any case, I wish you the best with your decision moving forward!

[Tls2016]

Good luck! It sounds like you have a supportive family, did well in your undergrad, and are fine financially. Even if you scratch law and call it a total loss, you are at worst adding two years in the work force before you retire. Another way to look at it is that if you work 40 more years this is a 5 percent blimp in your trajectory. I think your concern if you decide to leave law school is to ensure this 2 year blip doesn't turn into a 15 year one (even then though that wouldn't be the end of the world as long as you do not develop a crippling drug habit, become a felon, or otherwise wreck you resume). I have known hard working folks who have shifted from law to data science, physics to animation, bar tending to accounting, psychology to statistics, and research to med school. In each case the switch was at least 4 years out of undergraduate and the folks came out fine at the other end.

My only argument for law school is if you are somehow confounding your hatred of law school for a aversion for the field of law. It sounds from your post, though that was not the case.

In any case, I wish you the best with your decision moving forward!

If OP takes a leave, finds another job, and quits law school he is actually a year and a half ahead of the game in terms of years worked. Maybe more if he struggles in the Vale for a while after graduation.

Thinking in terms of how many years you have to work until retirement may not be productive. Many people leave law completely and do something else. OP shouldn't assume law would be his lifetime career when he seems to hate even going to school and is dismissive of he only legal job he had. Even if he finished law school, there is a decent chance he would change careers at some point.

Just my opinion based on knowing unhappy lawyers who regret their choice to stay in law when they knew it wasn't for them. Sticking it out in law school landed them in a career they hated doing. Not everyone is unhappy, of course, but if OP feels this strongly now he should consider finding something that doesn't make him depressed and that builds him up instead of eroding his self esteem.

[EvelynS]

I will not tell you what to do because it is totally up to you. If you really hate it, maybe you should cut your losses. I was in the same boat as you were. I found my 2L summer job only in April, right before the finals. My 2L year was pretty stressful, to say the least. Just keep talking to CDO and to any of your upperclassmen--they may know of opportunity and may help you out (this is what made it happen for me). I think the bigger problem is to find a job after law school. Unfortunately, striking out of OCI makes it much much harder to find a permanent legal job in a private sector after graduation. The system works this way--you get your big law job as a 2L at a firm and you have a very high chance of being offered a permanent job after graduation. But if you take any other route (PI, small law firms, consulting, etc.), you are facing an uphill battle. It is not impossible, but very very had ite.

[lacrossebrother]

Dude you have depression. Don't make rash decisions. There's a million different things to do with a law degree and you're halfway there. Go get drugs. Depression causes irreversible damage to brain that anti-depressants can help mitigate against.

Start talking to people at non-oci firms about their practices --not because you want a job with them but genuinely to learn about their practices. A law degree is a license to learn as much as you possibly can about anything you want and charge people for it. Your job as a lawyer ranges from a 100% desk job to never at the desk. Think of law school as a licensing process and figure out how you want to use it. Going to a firm to help service a partner's clients for a few years while you refine your own shit is the most obvious. But if that doesn't suit you, there must be something out there will. (At least, once you're not depressed anymore).

[lacrossebrother]

To continue the above, saying you have no interest in being a lawyer is myopic. It's like a chick deciding she doesn't like exercise because she tried yoga. Yes, if you are a girl who wants to exercise, yoga is the obvious choice and you might need to find some weird subreddit to help you really find the type of exercise you're into, but you can't give up on the entire institution that quick.

For instance, you could be:
-a guy who does exclusively work for victims of Catholic priest pedophelia.
-a guy who does internal investigations for companies after data breaches
-a guy who writes patents
-an appellate guy who has an entire record in front of him and never needs to actually build anything
-a guy who builds the shit out of a record by doing crazy discovery and is the best e-discovery motherfucker in the world
-a general counsel guy for a startup
-a judge
-a union side lawyer who goes around planning elections and drumming up support
-a class action torts guy

--
I mean even you do go the regular route you still can define your practice how you want. Like, you can decide you love numbers so what you like doing is working with damages spread sheets. Or if you hate numbers, define yourself as the guy who drafts the smartest interrogatories ever.

Point is, it's silly to give up. It's the best profession because I have no idea why we're qualified to do half the shit we are asked to do.

[Wahoowa18]

I can't tell if lacrossebrother is being serious or sarcastic. I really just don't know anything anymore.

[3lephant]

I can't tell if lacrossebrother is being serious or sarcastic. I really just don't know anything anymore.

Poor 1L. Feel free to PM me if you want some uva 3L comfort.

[NotMyRealName09]

Dude you have depression. Don't make rash decisions. There's a million different things to do with a law degree and you're halfway there. Go get drugs. Depression causes irreversible damage to brain that anti-depressants can help mitigate against.

Start talking to people at non-oci firms about their practices --not because you want a job with them but genuinely to learn about their practices. A law degree is a license to learn as much as you possibly can about anything you want and charge people for it. Your job as a lawyer ranges from a 100% desk job to never at the desk. Think of law school as a licensing process and figure out how you want to use it. Going to a firm to help service a partner's clients for a few years while you refine your own shit is the most obvious. But if that doesn't suit you, there must be something out there will. (At least, once you're not depressed anymore).

No seriously, OP you should consider this, you seem to be aware its happening so address the medical issue. I mean, you're intelligent, and what you wrote are classic expressions of medical depression (diminishing joy, avoidance behavior ("self-imposed exile"), growing feelings of self-doubt, etc.), maybe you can't see it because its difficult to be objective about yourself. I respectfully think you should see a doctor about this and, if diagnosed, take the meds, let them sink in (they take time to build up--but ask your doctor), and only then begin to consider the big questions. Depression is a real thing, don't discount it. And if you think you're in its throes, address that first. Good luck.

[throwawayjd17]

Dude you have depression. Don't make rash decisions. There's a million different things to do with a law degree and you're halfway there. Go get drugs. Depression causes irreversible damage to brain that anti-depressants can help mitigate against.

Start talking to people at non-oci firms about their practices --not because you want a job with them but genuinely to learn about their practices. A law degree is a license to learn as much as you possibly can about anything you want and charge people for it. Your job as a lawyer ranges from a 100% desk job to never at the desk. Think of law school as a licensing process and figure out how you want to use it. Going to a firm to help service a partner's clients for a few years while you refine your own shit is the most obvious. But if that doesn't suit you, there must be something out there will. (At least, once you're not depressed anymore).

No seriously, OP you should consider this, you seem to be aware its happening so address the medical issue. I mean, you're intelligent, and what you wrote are classic expressions of medical depression (diminishing joy, avoidance behavior ("self-imposed exile"), growing feelings of self-doubt, etc.), maybe you can't see it because its difficult to be objective about yourself. I respectfully think you should see a doctor about this and, if diagnosed, take the meds, let them sink in (they take time to build up--but ask your doctor), and only then begin to consider the big questions. Depression is a real thing, don't discount it. And if you think you're in its throes, address that first. Good luck.

Oh, I agree completely that I'm depressed - it took me a while because it was hard for me to realize as it was happening - and over the past few weeks, I've started to get treatment for it. But, as of yet, my mind remains unchanged - law school has not been an experience I've enjoyed, and I would like to make a career change if taking a leave of absence to explore such a possibility doesn't completely ruin everything.

I wanted to clarify something that, in retrospect, looks misleading based on my title. Leaving would mean taking a leave of absence - one or two semesters off - not leaving outright (or at least not yet, and certainly not immediately). In fact, one point I had against leaving law school outright was that my terrible grades there would eliminate virtually any chance at applying to any unrelated graduate programs in the future. I'd also stay in law school if I was able to get into the dual degree program I want to, because it's useful and could let me pursue a blatantly non-legal career without any academic interruption. But, given that I still have enough personal savings, I can't afford (literally or figuratively) to sit around for another semester wasting money while I apply for other programs or try to find a way out of the seemingly lackluster future I see manifesting for myself.

But based on what I'm seeing - among those who suggest I complete treatment before making this decision - I'm being led to believe that taking a leave of absence at this time would be fatally injurious to my chances of returning and doing well if, after receiving additional medical treatment, I decided I made some huge error (unlikely, I suppose, but life can be funny). Is that the case? Would taking a leave of absence during this part of 2L year effectively be killing my legal career, should I decide it's all been some huge mistake?

[NotMyRealName09]

Dude you have depression. Don't make rash decisions. There's a million different things to do with a law degree and you're halfway there. Go get drugs. Depression causes irreversible damage to brain that anti-depressants can help mitigate against.

Start talking to people at non-oci firms about their practices --not because you want a job with them but genuinely to learn about their practices. A law degree is a license to learn as much as you possibly can about anything you want and charge people for it. Your job as a lawyer ranges from a 100% desk job to never at the desk. Think of law school as a licensing process and figure out how you want to use it. Going to a firm to help service a partner's clients for a few years while you refine your own shit is the most obvious. But if that doesn't suit you, there must be something out there will. (At least, once you're not depressed anymore).

No seriously, OP you should consider this, you seem to be aware its happening so address the medical issue. I mean, you're intelligent, and what you wrote are classic expressions of medical depression (diminishing joy, avoidance behavior ("self-imposed exile"), growing feelings of self-doubt, etc.), maybe you can't see it because its difficult to be objective about yourself. I respectfully think you should see a doctor about this and, if diagnosed, take the meds, let them sink in (they take time to build up--but ask your doctor), and only then begin to consider the big questions. Depression is a real thing, don't discount it. And if you think you're in its throes, address that first. Good luck.

Oh, I agree completely that I'm depressed - it took me a while because it was hard for me to realize as it was happening - and over the past few weeks, I've started to get treatment for it. But, as of yet, my mind remains unchanged - law school has not been an experience I've enjoyed, and I would like to make a career change if taking a leave of absence to explore such a possibility doesn't completely ruin everything.

I wanted to clarify something that, in retrospect, looks misleading based on my title. Leaving would mean taking a leave of absence - one or two semesters off - not leaving outright (or at least not yet, and certainly not immediately). In fact, one point I had against leaving law school outright was that my terrible grades there would eliminate virtually any chance at applying to any unrelated graduate programs in the future. I'd also stay in law school if I was able to get into the dual degree program I want to, because it's useful and could let me pursue a blatantly non-legal career without any academic interruption. But, given that I still have enough personal savings, I can't afford (literally or figuratively) to sit around for another semester wasting money while I apply for other programs or try to find a way out of the seemingly lackluster future I see manifesting for myself.

But based on what I'm seeing - among those who suggest I complete treatment before making this decision - I'm being led to believe that taking a leave of absence at this time would be fatally injurious to my chances of returning and doing well if, after receiving additional medical treatment, I decided I made some huge error (unlikely, I suppose, but life can be funny). Is that the case? Would taking a leave of absence during this part of 2L year effectively be killing my legal career, should I decide it's all been some huge mistake?

Glad you're pursuing medical help - I went through a bout of depression in the past, and it can certainly color the way you view things without you even realizing it.

As for the rest of it, I don't think I can provide an answer other than the observation that the law is a conservative profession - any deviation from the "normal" way things are done can cause a raised eyebrow within the traditional sectors. When it comes to career path, most will say don't deviate, don't rock the boat. But really, nothing will "kill" a legal career--it just changes the trajectory. Lacrosseebro says some good stuff--most of the legal world is not biglaw or bust. Will a gap in lawschool while you take a leave of absence maybe raise a red flag and perhaps close certain doors that otherwise may have been open on a conventional career path? Sure. And getting straight As can open a lot of doors too--neither of those is a controversial statement. But between complete academic failure (which is not you) and straight As, there is so much variation its really hard to generalize. A lot here will say "bad grades = drop out", but I think you have to decide what you want out of life, and whether pursuit of the law will get you there. Sorry, that's vague bullshit, but that's the best I think I can do. Good luck. By the way, a law degree from a T10 is a fantastic achievement, grades be damned. You shouldn't lose sight of that. Law school can cause myopia, surrounded by all the striving assholes, one might think life begins at OCI - the actual world is full of people who did not attend a T10 lawschool, and tons of them have happy, successful lives. Something got you to that T10, a place 95% of law students in America would kill to attend regardless of their final grades. Remember that if / when you dwell on your self-worth.

[jbagelboy]

Id drop out. fuck it. fix your life and your self-esteem. career options with an SA offer in this field are bleak. Without one, unless you have strong convictions or opportunities in another field you are passionate about, I don't even know.

As for the "don't make rash decisions when you're depressed" argument, I agree when it comes to life choices independent of the source of the anxiety and depression, but this is a little different. I've posted about this before several years ago but here the mental health concerns stem directly from the activity and its result.

So take all the time you need to reflect on it, but I'd drop out and find something you really want to do.

[totesTheGoat]

At this rate, I honestly have no desire to work for a law firm or non-profit at this point. I’d be willing to use the degree for something like financial analysis, compliance, policy work, or risk management, but honestly I don’t think I have the undergraduate background for most of them (liberal arts degree). Even if I did, the internship opportunities I’ve applied for in those areas have been about as unsuccessful as the rest. Because of my admittedly minimal financial obligations through this process (see below), I’ve been more than willing to compromise throughout this entire process. When it became apparent that my grades weren’t as I hoped in 1L year, I was very happy with taking a quasi-legal position.

Keep poking around for an opportunity. From my experience, depression tends to result in a lack of networking. If you force yourself to go out and make connections with people in the legal community, I think that you'll find that it helps with a lot of problems. It'll give you some social interaction, it'll give you contacts in the field, and it'll give you some time when you're not neck deep in school issues.

I’d be more than willing to do a dual degree program in something useful (my law school has a joint program with a masters in IT that would help me transition into something techy), but I fear that my <3.0 law school GPA will seriously impact my ability to get into that program or, for that matter, any graduate program in the future. I’d like to transition into IT, and such a program would allow me to overcome the limitations of doing so with my liberal arts major. If I walked away from my law school altogether, I'd spend what money I have left getting a similar degree elsewhere.

Personally, I think that would be a mistake. You're going to be wasting a bunch of time and money on a degree, only to need more certifications and training. Just skip the degree and self-teach. Maybe go do a coding bootcamp to get familiar with the logic and thinking behind computers. Then, go get your certs and start applying for jobs. You don't need to waste your time and money on a diploma when you can teach yourself faster and still achieve the same results. (Caveat: I haven't been in the software/IT field for a few years, so maybe things have changed, but I've worked with people on both the software and the IT sides with degrees in Composition, Forestry, and other non-tech areas)

Here's my advice from a 10,000ft level:
1) Get yourself out of your funk. You can't make rational decisions when your mind is where it is (trust me, I know).
2) Leverage the resources your school provides. Profs have office hours. Your CSO has people that you should be in regular contact with. Your school undoubtedly has tons of volunteer and extracurricular opportunities to get experience, without needing a high GPA. Don't let your school get by with taking your money and then you not using every bit of their services to your advantage. You should become a pest until you understand your GPA woes, until you understand your job prospects, and until you have enough legal experience on your resume to make you punch above your GPA. IMO, this is the time for intensity, not quitting.
3) Once you get out of your funk and attack your spring semester with intensity, use your summer to decide whether you truly want to finish law school.

[rcharter1978]

OP-- I've been told, from someone who I think understands these things that if you don't want to practice its all about just having an advanced degree that can help you to land a position. I'm sure I'm just a wide eyed optimist but I tend to think that your education, combined with the right attitude could get you to where you need to go.

A lot of people leave after the first year, I would think you would get more questions if you left at the second year. As far as taking a leave for a few semesters, I guess the question is what would you do during your leave? I was never interested, but is there any way you can add a little extra time and do a JD/MBA? Maybe that can help you to get into finance, which seems like something you're interested in.

I feel for you......I really do. Buck up buttercup, whatever is going on, its can get better. You're in the weeds right now, so you can't see it.

[TheFutureLawyer]

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