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[mootness]

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[landshoes]

Don't send that email. Put your head down and get through this. Do not single yourself out any further for this person. Be quiet and do your work. If you can get a number of classmates together you might also consider going to an administrator. But frankly, I wouldn't bother. She sounds like a bad teacher. It happens. I doubt administrators will care, or they wouldn't have hired her.

[landshoes]

Also, some tips for the future. Never tell a woman that you thought she was getting emotional. It is going to piss her off whether or not you are right. Also, don't insult/criticize someone for two paragraphs and then ask them to do something for you. Again, even if you're right, this is not the way to get things done. You need to start sucking up to her. Tell her she provides so much insight that you want it to be written down so you don't miss any. Shit like that. You kind of blew your opportunity to pull that off, though, so like I said, you should be keeping your head down and keeping out of her way.

It is also completely obvious from your description of your school what school you go to. You really should consider editing the irrelevant parts out.

[mootness]

Also, some tips for the future. Never tell a woman that you thought she was getting emotional. It is going to piss her off whether or not you are right. Also, don't insult/criticize someone for two paragraphs and then ask them to do something for you. Again, even if you're right, this is not the way to get things done. You need to start sucking up to her. Tell her she provides so much insight that you want it to be written down so you don't miss any. Shit like that. You kind of blew your opportunity to pull that off, though, so like I said, you should be keeping your head down and keeping out of her way.

It is also completely obvious from your description of your school what school you go to. You really should consider editing the irrelevant parts out.

Thanks for the advice. Do you really think the email is insulting? I mean it's not like I attack anyone's character or name-call... Yes, maybe the part about her getting emotional should be deleted.

Oh, maybe you could figure out my school... Is this a serious issue? What could happen anyway?

[rubberplant2020]

This sounds like a legal writing class. Like all legal writing, it is subjective. To get an A you need to be in her office learning to write how she wants you too. Remember its never too late to turn it around, just swallow your pride (and logic), so you can get the best grade. Don't send that email, the only thing you will gain is your pride, but will lose it when you get a C in legal writing.

[mootness]

This sounds like a legal writing class. Like all legal writing, it is subjective. To get an A you need to be in her office learning to write how she wants you too. Remember its never too late to turn it around, just swallow your pride (and logic), so you can get the best grade. Don't send that email, the only thing you will gain is your pride, but will lose it when you get a C in legal writing.

Shouldn't most learning be taking place in the classroom, with office hours intended for clarification purposes only? I mean, during my non-legal university and even high school, class time was meant for learning. Talking to the teacher privately was meant for clearing up things that you didn't understand from the learning in class.

[Mick Haller]

It is a bad email, and you are wrong to be challenging your professor. It sounds like she sucks, but this is not a relationship between equals. You need to back down from your criticism and send an apologetic email. The one you have written will dig you into a deeper hole with this person.

[mootness]

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[hairbear7]

I could see that you felt emotional

Please send this and post her reply.

[rubberplant2020]

This sounds like a legal writing class. Like all legal writing, it is subjective. To get an A you need to be in her office learning to write how she wants you too. Remember its never too late to turn it around, just swallow your pride (and logic), so you can get the best grade. Don't send that email, the only thing you will gain is your pride, but will lose it when you get a C in legal writing.

Shouldn't most learning be taking place in the classroom, with office hours intended for clarification purposes only? I mean, during my non-legal university and even high school, class time was meant for learning. Talking to the teacher privately was meant for clearing up things that you didn't understand from the learning in class.

Most people love Ernest Hemingway's writings, I don't. This is why you should go to office hours for LW because the shit is subjective. She does not have time to go over little minutiae in class. Also she might answer questions that you don't even know you have.

Also LMFAO, learning takes place at home when you read or in office hours, class is a fucking waste of time.

[ClubberLang]

This sounds like a pretty standard legal writing prof, and that the problem is almost certainly on your end if you think sending that email is even remotely appropriate.

[mootness]

This sounds like a pretty standard legal writing prof, and that the problem is almost certainly on your end if you think sending that email is even remotely appropriate.

I understand where you're coming from, and I probably never would've sent that email. The email is just an honest response, from my end. It was good to write out at least. After the way she reacted during her office hours, I have a hard time seeing her as an authority figure and respecting her in her role as professor. Don't get me wrong, I'll try my best and I'm sure she's a great person.

[GoneSouth]

I attend a joint program between an American law school and a Canadian school. The Canadian school is fine. On the other hand, the American school is ranked as a tier 4 and I'd read not-so-great things about this school before accepting the offer, but thought it couldn't be so bad. Now, a few months later, I'm starting to develop a different opinion. My main issue is with the legal writing professor who is the professor we see the most at this school and whose course is weighted the most in our curriculum. My issues with her: (1) unorganized, scattered instructions and expectations given for assignments; (2) refusal to improve on or make changes to (1); (3) extremely specific grading criteria based on mastery of (1); and (4) refusal to acknowledge mistakes she's made.

(1) In class, I find that she will jump from talking about one component of the assignment to another component of the assignment in no particular order and at different dates, so we're supposed to piece things together ourselves. I find that she makes often-inarticulate, often-vague PowerPoints for her classes, especially compared to some other PPT's I've seen. So I guess we're supposed to hang on to her every word in class, but the way she talks about the material often confuses me. Recordings of classes and laptops are banned, and I can't handwrite fast enough to take down every word she says to make sense of it after. Even when I talk to her privately, sometimes I just don't know what she's talking about and I have to ask her to repeat it several times.

(2) I talked to her about her teaching, and she fully acknowledged that her teaching involves giving scattered information and us piecing things together. To remedy the problem I had with this style of teaching, I asked her to make a master document in which she spells out clear instructions and expectations for every section of the next assignment. This idea was rejected, because, by her rationale, at a law firm a senior partner is not going to give you a clear list of their expectations and you're supposed to piece things together yourself. She then got angry and falsely accused me of alleging that she doesn't give out ANY information, even though I said that she gives out scattered information.

(3) As for her grading,I'll give you an example of how we're docked marks. For the introduction section of the last assignment, my "roadmap" was slightly too long and not simple enough. She had never specified in class that we needed a simple roadmap or exactly how long it should be. I'd even gotten her TA to check over that section, and the TA had noticed no problems with the "roadmap".

(4) As for the mistakes she refused to acknowledge... I read one of her comments on an unmarked version of my assignment to mean that she wanted me to add another theory to an IRAC. I did this for the graded assignment and was penalized. I told her about the misleading comment on the ungraded version, and she would not even countenance how her comment could have been misinterpreted.

Finally, as I was leaving her office, I tried to take the piece of paper on which she had written instructions and clarifications for me. She withheld this paper. Does this make sense to anyone? She told me I could email her to confirm what she had instructed me to do. So I'm going to do that, and also add this following bit to my email. Do you guys think what I'm saying is OK?

...
On another note, I sincerely hope you weren’t offended when I gave feedback about your teaching methods. I could see that you felt emotional, and I believe this hindered thoughtful dialogue. I understand that criticism about your teaching methods can feel personal, but nothing I said about your teaching was directed at you on a personal level.

We both agreed that your teaching method involves giving scattered information here and there. You said this was to mimic the style of a law firm. I was never informed that legal writing class was intended to be a clinical experience. I understand that certain aspects of the class are designed to be “real law firm,” but if the “real law firm” style applies to the entire course, I think we should have been informed very clearly and in the syllabus. Rather, I understood the purpose of this course (excluding the blank assignment and blank assignment) to be pedagogical, i.e. "school". It’s also possible that some people don’t want to become lawyers or to work in law firms and are learning about the law from a purely academic perspective. Accordingly, I wonder if you could implement my suggestion that you provide a master document wherein your instructions and expectations for the next assignment are clearly articulated. It would also help my learning if it were possible for me to record classes from now on.

At this point, I don't know if I should resign myself to getting an average grade in the class or try to improve. I feel like I'll never be able to decipher her expectations fully. I feel hopeless. If her teaching is indicative of the teaching at the American school, I REALLY don't know if I can take three years of this.

My question for you guys: IS EVERY LEGAL WRITING PROFESSOR LIKE THIS? What should I do?

You sound like a delight

Also, I'm really glad we don't have graded LRW

[mootness]

You sound like a delight

Also, I'm really glad we don't have graded LRW

If LRW is really this subjective across all US law schools, I think you're pretty lucky.

[mornincounselor]

Post removed.

[mootness]

Have you considered finding some of this professor's publications and using them as a model?

Yeah, good idea, I just looked at some of her stuff.I find it slightly ironic that she's published mostly on pedagogy and teaching in law school, but compares her classroom to a law firm. In any case, the criteria for our assignments are so specific and she hasn't published a similar type of exercise.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

Assuming blind grading, sending the email can't hurt. But it is generally inadvisable for your future career to be doing things like this. The problem sounds like going to a TTT, not the "quality of education" you are receiving. Nobody learns anything useful in law school.

[mootness]

Assuming blind grading, sending the email can't hurt. But it is generally inadvisable for your future career to be doing things like this. The problem sounds like going to a TTT, not the "quality of education" you are receiving. Nobody learns anything useful in law school.

Of course, I don't ever want this type of event to go down again. The circumstances in this class are, to me, somewhat extraordinary: I've never in my life had this problem where I'll try to pay attention in class and just not understand what's going on... or when I talk to the instructor, I'll just not understand what she's saying and have to ask her to repeat things, and even ensure that things are written down.

[jchiles]

Obviously don't send that email, but I am sure it felt great to type it out. Graded LRW sucks, and it is an incredibly arbitrary class. If you are dead set on doing well the advice to go to her office hours and do exactly what she said is the best approach, but in my experience even doing that may not result in a great outcome.

I think the best approach to graded LRW, assuming it's only worth like 1 or 2 credits, is to do what your prof says, accept that you are getting a B, and spend the time you were worrying about LRW on your other classes.

Trying to challenger her will get you nowhere and will probably raise a lot of more serious problems.

[TheSpanishMain]

The problem sounds like going to a TTT

Unless the program is somehow very respected in Canada and you plan on using the joint degree to practice there (I have no idea if this is even possible) I think you have bigger problems than your LRW professor sucking.

But yeah, in general, just put your head down and focus your efforts on the classes that matter more for your GPA anyway.

[JGMotorsport]

I attend a T30 Strong Regional

Almost every LRW (LMW) professor I've heard about has similar style including my own. It's just the way it is. At my school students are getting mad and organized but do you really want to be that person? Think about it, her job is to train you on real life, I clerked as a 0L (long story) at a respected law firm in a small city. Every attorney there had the EXACT same style. You don't know what they want or how they want it, you just do what you think you need to do to get by. Often that is the best answer to these problems. You are a professional now, sending that email will hinder you in political ways that are just unnecessary. Play nice, smile and try to figure it out. It is exactly the same in real life.

If she is able to see which papers are yours (there are ways) do you want to be the C in your class for being 'brave'?

[mootness]

I attend a T30 Strong Regional

Almost every LRW (LMW) professor I've heard about has similar style including my own. It's just the way it is. At my school students are getting mad and organized but do you really want to be that person? Think about it, her job is to train you on real life, I clerked as a 0L (long story) at a respected law firm in a small city. Every attorney there had the EXACT same style. You don't know what they want or how they want it, you just do what you think you need to do to get by. Often that is the best answer to these problems. You are a professional now, sending that email will hinder you in political ways that are just unnecessary. Play nice, smile and try to figure it out. It is exactly the same in real life.

If she is able to see which papers are yours (there are ways) do you want to be the C in your class for being 'brave'?

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I've decided that I'm going to just send an apology and move on.

[DrSpaceman]

But I still have to disagree that her job is to train me for real life. I signed up for this program, requesting training in legal writing.

In my school, this class is called "Legal Practice: Writing and Analysis."

HTH

[A. Nony Mouse]

It is a bit weird to criticize law school for trying to prepare people for practice. It's a professional program and anyone who goes to law school without the intention of practicing law isn't really in a position to complain about it focusing on law practice.

[mootness]

It is a bit weird to criticize law school for trying to prepare people for practice. It's a professional program and anyone who goes to law school without the intention of practicing law isn't really in a position to complain about it focusing on law practice.

Read carefully. I understand that parts of the course prepare students for practice, and we have exercises that imitate practice. I don't agree that the entire course should be about preparing students for practice. There needs to be a balance between "real law firm" assignments and "pedagogy". We have clinics at the school for a reason, and even there they emphasize clinic is also a learning experience in addition to being a "practice" experience.