deletd Forum

[Johann]

very true. youve been on point with your posting today.

[worldtraveler]

On the other hand, as someone who failed to achieve the biglaw goal, I can say I don't think I'll ever get over it. I attribute that to TLS. Many of the people I met in law school were oblivious to biglaw and related "prestigious" jobs coming into law school. I went to a T20 school, and honestly I was pretty surprised by that. Having been a TLSer since before law school, I definitely bought into the "biglaw or bust" mentality. And since failing to achieve my goals, it's warped my since of self-worth in a really bad way.

this is shitty, and if anything, its the TLS problem. I'm sorry. It also hurts the community since a lot of non-biglaw (or equivalent) focused people won't feel welcomed or contribute, so we regurgitate a stale perspective. it's a sad mythology to perpetuate, even if guised in the "biglaw sucks" anthem and people getting chewed out for being unsympathetic to strike outs. From the sound of it though, your career will turn out more fulfilling and interesting than the average V100 summer associate.

I agree with this. When I first started law school, I wanted big law because I thought I should want big law given that it was an option for me at a top school. I don't think I would have come to that conclusion without TLS.

I think it has changed a bit and now there are more posters who talk about alternative careers, but I think there is a pretty strong push toward big law and also clerkships, without really considering the downsides of those paths or other options.

[Desert Fox]

[minnbills]

.

[DCNTUA]

Re the 300k
Based on the post I remember vaguely arguing about this guy who wanted to make 125k with his own firm. He said he had contacts and could drum up business and was a smart business man. I cautioned him that starting your own law firm is usually either go big or go home as in you're done here within a couple years without fraction of you comfortable exceed the 125 he wanted. Maybe my statement meant he would be closer to 300 than 125 as in somewhere in the 200s. Maybe my statement meant that the only solos I've seen go it have either crashed and burned out of done well. If I count now I can probably find about 20 people I know who started their own firms. Many have failed - prolly half, but the successful ones I know salary numbers of I still haven't met one practitioner not banking 200 k by year 3 that stayed in business. Not a huge sample size but obviously relevant if I have never met one and I know more than a handful and my sample size is as large as your random aba thing too.

Your numbers on the other hand are no better than law school bullshit. So many confounding factors I've pointed out with the only reliable number probably being the IRS number in a place where people try to push their income down aggressively. And if you think the partners in Skadden in NYC dent the fucking national avg of partners in 2-4 partner firms then you are clueless. I think that 300k with a number at 350k is a pretty fair consideration based on my personal experience and the stats.

You aren't privy to the salary info of any solos you silly billy. Come on.

Just wanted to say that the above was very much underappreciated.

[Nebby]

TLS has been a net-positive in my experience.

[stannis]

Interesting thread.

TLS has been a great resource for me and I definitely have learned a lot of useful things from it. That being said, it has hurt me in other ways.

I go to a regional school and am near the top of my class. However, the school has essentially a non-existent biglaw hiring presence. There are decent midlaw OCI employers as well as federal judges who like hiring locally. I don't think biglaw would even be right for me. The hours/QOL look pretty awful and I don't need the money (no debt).

However, because of TLS, I mass-mailed NYC and two other markets with zero success thus far. As a result, I feel like a failure. I think TLS is so biglaw-centric (which is fine, it is after all "top-law-schools" not "decent-regional-law-schools") that those of us who are seeking other alternatives feel like we are failing. When everyone on here is looking to make $160k a year, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that for a 25 y/o with no unique talents, $90k a year is still pretty good.

[Johann]

Instead of looking at salary, look at the per hour and it should make you feel better. Col will be even more of a boost. 90k in a cheap place is enough for a nice car, nice house and weekend to enjoy. That's awesome.

[Elston Gunn]

TLS has saved thousands of people from borrowing 200k+ to go to law schools with bad employment stats, with the goal of becoming a space lawyer/human rights lawyer/treaty negotiator/etc. To the extent that TLS is obsessed with biglaw, I think that's mainly because biglaw is the only off sticker debt at the majority of law schools within 10 years.

For the most part, TLS isn't elitist. I don't see people looking down on those who get a 160 LSAT and go to mediocre law schools. No one says that Santa Clara students are stupid, that they don't deserve good jobs, etc. But most posters on TLS attempt to give honest advice about the career opportunities for whatever school an applicant is considering. That honesty might be dream-crushing, but its not elitist.

I mean, people regularly say things like any idiot who studies enough can get a 165 and/or get into a T14, which is super elitist and douchey. Although that definitely happens less now that the group of people has skewed older.

[El Pollito]

TLS has saved thousands of people from borrowing 200k+ to go to law schools with bad employment stats, with the goal of becoming a space lawyer/human rights lawyer/treaty negotiator/etc. To the extent that TLS is obsessed with biglaw, I think that's mainly because biglaw is the only off sticker debt at the majority of law schools within 10 years.

For the most part, TLS isn't elitist. I don't see people looking down on those who get a 160 LSAT and go to mediocre law schools. No one says that Santa Clara students are stupid, that they don't deserve good jobs, etc. But most posters on TLS attempt to give honest advice about the career opportunities for whatever school an applicant is considering. That honesty might be dream-crushing, but its not elitist.

I mean, people regularly say things like any idiot who studies enough can get a 165 and/or get into a T14, which is super elitist and douchey. Although that definitely happens less now that the group of people has skewed older.

i don't believe that

[Elston Gunn]

i don't believe that

like two days ago:

The thing is that if you have a pulse, a brain, and a BA, chances are you are getting into at least one T14. T

[El Pollito]

he was calling the lsat learnable. so what?

The thing is that if you have a pulse, a brain, and a BA, chances are you are getting into at least one T14. T

what?

The LSAT is learnable. So, if you have brains, you have a good chance of getting into at least one T14, even if it is one of the lower ones. I'm assuming, thanks to grade inflation, that we're also talking about a 3.0 or better UGPA.

In any case, my point is it isn't that big a deal to get into a T14, certainly not these days.

[Elston Gunn]

There are lots of people that can spend lots and lots of time learning the very learnable LSAT and still never score well enough to get into a T14. That particular example isn't a big deal because it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but it used to happen in the on-topics pretty frequently, which I think is pretty douchey.

[Nebby]

There are lots of people that can spend lots and lots of time learning the very learnable LSAT and still never score well enough to get into a T14. That particular example isn't a big deal because it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but it used to happen in the on-topics pretty frequently, which I think is pretty douchey.

This entire fora is douchey to a large extent. I mean, a credible lawyer that made their way towards their significant other and law job at the same time, which is awesome, still found enough time to chime in and make sure that YOU knew that YOU ARE wrong, sir. WRONG ON ALL COUNTS! Isn't that the career we all dreamed of? i meen rly tho.

[californiauser]

TLS isn't any more elitist than the lawyers who went to top schools and/or work in/want to work in the top legal jobs. I'd say TLS views "prestige" in a pragmatic way, which, sadly, is something that needs to be considered when entering the profession.

[El Pollito]

There are lots of people that can spend lots and lots of time learning the very learnable LSAT and still never score well enough to get into a T14. That particular example isn't a big deal because it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but it used to happen in the on-topics pretty frequently, which I think is pretty douchey.

This entire fora is douchey to a large extent. I mean, a credible lawyer that made their way towards their significant other and law job at the same time, which is awesome, still found enough time to chime in and make sure that YOU knew that YOU ARE wrong, sir. WRONG ON ALL COUNTS! Isn't that the career we all dreamed of? i meen rly tho.

Bizarre.

[Johann]

if you dont go to a college with grade inflation (small liberal arts school) or just dick around all college it's not that hard to have below a 3.0 which basically means you need a what top 5%? lsat score to get into a T14. thats pretty hard and whoever has done that (obviously plenty on this board) should feel somewhat accomplished for that.

i dont think i could break 170 ever. maybe a lot of people here read really fast, but im a pretty fast test taker and i was crunched like hell on the reading sections.

[salander]

There are lots of people that can spend lots and lots of time learning the very learnable LSAT and still never score well enough to get into a T14. That particular example isn't a big deal because it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but it used to happen in the on-topics pretty frequently, which I think is pretty douchey.

While arrogance is the #1 trait that pisses me off, I also refuse to believe that everyone has a score cap. Surely, whatever someone lacks in background and experience can almost always be made up with sheer hard work and—most importantly—time.

[salander]

I'm torn on this. On one hand, TLS has been an awesome resource - which I think everyone can agree on. There is simply no other source out there than can provide the wealth of knowledge on law school/beginning a legal career/related topics. Not to mention how nice it's been to commiserate with people going through the same thing.

On the other hand, as someone who failed to achieve the biglaw goal, I can say I don't think I'll ever get over it. I attribute that to TLS. Many of the people I met in law school were oblivious to biglaw and related "prestigious" jobs coming into law school. I went to a T20 school, and honestly I was pretty surprised by that. Having been a TLSer since before law school, I definitely bought into the "biglaw or bust" mentality. And since failing to achieve my goals, it's warped my since of self-worth in a really bad way.

you got a clerkship lined up. You get another bite at the apple afterwards. Don't give up yet. Mass mail while clerking. Work your judges connections. I think you can crack into a big firm still - not the elite of the elite but one of the ILRG 350 or something - yeah.

But this shouldn't even be the message. That type of job is not necessary (unless you're drowning in debt).

+1

[starry eyed]

I pretty much echo everything Johann has said in this thread and it was refreshing to finally see a different perspective. The "just retake get a 173 bro" advice is just a bad as " just do consulting bro"

[starry eyed]

Does anyone ever care to compare salaries of someone who works in biglaw and flames out after 3 years (just after he takes a dent out of his loans) and the guy who starts at a small firm and stays on board while getting raises every year? I bet 10 years down the line, they are not much different. Also, why does this board think biglaw is prestigious? I mean you are basically an expendable corporate drone who gets little recognition and the money you do make, you don't get to enjoy bc you're always working as some partner's monkey. The small town "shitlawyer" who actually handles cases (like criminal or personal injury or even family law) has more relative power than a biglaw associate. People's lives are directly imapacted by their work- kind of like how surgeons' have lives in their hands, so do shitlawyers. Biglaw associates may handle 'fortune 500 stuff" but you don't really have any power, you just make a lot of money, which can be dwarfed by the small town lawyer who owns his own practice or makes partner at a small shop. LOL at the misguided prestige obsession TLS suffers from.

If you are a total aspie, you probably should just do prestige bro, bc you probably won't ever have to bring in business or clients. You rely on your T14 to get to a big firm and you rely on your big firm to get in-house. So i can see why this path appeals to most of TLS.

[thesealocust]

Does anyone ever care to compare salaries of someone who works in biglaw and flames out after 3 years (just after he takes a dent out of his loans) and the guy who starts at a small firm and stays on board while getting raises every year? I bet 10 years down the line, they are not much different. Also, why does this board think biglaw is prestigious? I mean you are basically an expendable corporate drone who gets little recognition and the money you do make, you don't get to enjoy bc you're always working as some partner's monkey. The small town "shitlawyer" who actually handles cases (like criminal or personal injury or even family law) has more relative power than a biglaw associate. People's lives are directly imapacted by their work- kind of like how surgeons' have lives in their hands, so do shitlawyers. Biglaw associates may handle 'fortune 500 stuff" but you don't really have any power, you just make a lot of money, which can be dwarfed by the small town lawyer who owns his own practice or makes partner at a small shop. LOL at the misguided prestige obsession TLS suffers from.

If you are a total aspie, you probably should just do prestige bro, bc you probably won't ever have to bring in business or clients. You rely on your T14 to get to a big firm and you rely on your big firm to get in-house. So i can see why this path appeals to most of TLS.

[starry eyed]

LOL that was hilarious dude. Care to offer a rebuttal?

[thesealocust]

LOL that was hilarious dude. Care to offer a rebuttal?

If your worldview and research is so utterly flawed as to have produced the drivel you wrote above, no amount of careful argument or statistics could be productive here.

The only winning move is not to play.

[starry eyed]

So different worldview is all you could come up with? So I'm not wrong? cool then