Fall Sem grades released today - did horrible Forum

[bad1LFallGrades]

Received fall 2014 grades today and I am shocked at how bad I did. I'm at a T2 on a scholarship contingent on ranking in the top 80% of the class and my cumulative GPA was 2.091 (11 credits worth). I'm considering dropping out as an option and getting back most of my tuition for the spring semester.

I like law school. I find the coursework interesting and really have no issues with sticking it out another semester and trying to rectify what went wrong this semester. However, I'm concerned my GPA is a little too low to rationalize that as an option. To be honest, I don't really want to drop out. Although if I can't pull my GPA up enough to retain my scholarship, financially I'm screwed. What do?

[utahraptor]

Your GPA is really bad.

How well would you need to do next term to retain your scholarship? How likely would that be?

I'd drop out.

[Tomasz]

Two things I'm curious about:

1. Does this school "section stack"? i.e. do they put all the scholarship people in one section to get people kicked off scholarships?

2. What is the curve here? To my knowledge a 2.0x is basically 'failing' at most schools (as in, you had to get down to the discretionary range of grades for most classes). My intuition is that maybe law school isn't for you. You may be perfectly suited for plenty of careers but are you married to the idea of law?

[Johann]

What's your undergrad major in? Start applying for jobs and if you find something drop out. If not, I guess sticking out law school if you enjoy it is the best bet.

[bad1LFallGrades]

Two things I'm curious about:

1. Does this school "section stack"? i.e. do they put all the scholarship people in one section to get people kicked off scholarships?

2. What is the curve here? To my knowledge a 2.0x is basically 'failing' at most schools (as in, you had to get down to the discretionary range of grades for most classes). My intuition is that maybe law school isn't for you. You may be perfectly suited for plenty of careers but are you married to the idea of law?

Is there a way to find out the answer to 1. without asking students in my section if they're here on a scholarship?

I think I am married to the idea of law. I can't think of anything else I would rather do. I have a liberal arts degree in economics so I'm not completely out of luck finding a job, although it's not really from a top school. I'm sure I could find another career but this is what I chose to do and I thought I was making the right choice knowing myself. I'll be meeting with professors this week to figure out what went wrong on my exams - I'm sure it has to do with my exam taking skills more than anything. My school hasn't released class ranks yet so I'm not sure where I fall and how likely it is that I can retain the scholarship. Once I find that out, I think I'd be able to make a more informed decision.

[Johann]

Well if you're married to law not sure why you are posing this. Go down with the ship to the last breath than.

[utahraptor]

hope you're ready for a messy divorce

[mvp99]

drop out

[Tomasz]

Two things I'm curious about:

1. Does this school "section stack"? i.e. do they put all the scholarship people in one section to get people kicked off scholarships?

2. What is the curve here? To my knowledge a 2.0x is basically 'failing' at most schools (as in, you had to get down to the discretionary range of grades for most classes). My intuition is that maybe law school isn't for you. You may be perfectly suited for plenty of careers but are you married to the idea of law?

Is there a way to find out the answer to 1. without asking students in my section if they're here on a scholarship?

I think I am married to the idea of law. I can't think of anything else I would rather do. I have a liberal arts degree in economics so I'm not completely out of luck finding a job, although it's not really from a top school. I'm sure I could find another career but this is what I chose to do and I thought I was making the right choice knowing myself. I'll be meeting with professors this week to figure out what went wrong on my exams - I'm sure it has to do with my exam taking skills more than anything. My school hasn't released class ranks yet so I'm not sure where I fall and how likely it is that I can retain the scholarship. Once I find that out, I think I'd be able to make a more informed decision.

I do personally know two people who did quite poorly their 1L Fall semester but turned it around Spring and got good jobs.

However, I think you being at a T2 makes this more discouraging. Plenty of people get good/decent jobs out of T2 but if you can't figure out how to get your grades up you're gonna be hurting. If you decide to stay you should be very creative with critiquing your study/writing styles.

Did you study a ton? Then you studied wrong.
Do you not see any difference between the model answers and yours? Then you can't recognize legal writing and need to speak to your legal writing professor, or something.
Did you have a lot of free time during exam week? You need more study time.
Did you highlight half the book? Learn to extract the key points.
Do you feel you gave good answers but still did poorly? Learn to read your professors (model answers help here).
Did you offend your professors? Talking too much could hurt. This might be a good time to ask a classmate how you come off in class. As an example, one of my classmates made a semi-sexist comment in class to a female professor who clearly did not appreciate. He got a B-. Coincidence? (I know exams are usually graded anonymously, but the actual grades are given out afterwards with names attached to tests).

You've got a hole. Not a grave, yet, but sticking with it is gonna take some effort. Do you have any idea what went wrong?

[Nomo]

What kind of career do you want?

If you're set on biglaw or federal government work I think you should drop out now. If you're interested in certain practice areas that barely exist outside of biglaw and the federal government (ex: anti-trust) I think you should drop out now. On the other hand, if you're interested in doing insurance defense then you've still got a chance - especially if you have ties to the area you're trying to work in.

[Stevoman]

What is your school's curve? This is an extremely important piece of info; are you on a B/B+ curve, or is it a B-/C+ curve like lots of lower-ranked schools tend to do?

Granted your GPA is still not good, but this is the difference between bottom half of the class and bottom 10% of the class.

[AReasonableMan]

Yes, most of these posts are written just with the GPA. Your GPA is completely meaningless. All that's relevant is your placement along the curve. If the GPA was important then every law school would curve to a 3.7 so their students could get jobs.

[runinthefront]

Yes, most of these posts are written just with the GPA. Your GPA is completely meaningless. All that's relevant is your placement along the curve. If the GPA was important then every law school would curve to a 3.7 so their students could get jobs.

do you think any employer is going to look at a 2.091 and say "hm, let me check the curve, maybe OP is median..."

no matter where you are on a curve, a sub 3.0 is a red flag to employers...

...and OP needs a 4.0 just to get back to a 3.0

[bad1LFallGrades]

Curve is a B

Is the only con in sticking it out another semester the cost of the semester's tuition? I have the drive and the motivation to go even harder this year, so I'm not worried about expending my time and energy towards turning this thing around. Worst case scenario I can always drop out after the full year. Someone convince me that 3 sub par grades is compelling enough to make the determination that I'm not cut out for this law thing, and I'll give more weight to dropping out.

Thanks for your help guys.

[AReasonableMan]

Yes, most of these posts are written just with the GPA. Your GPA is completely meaningless. All that's relevant is your placement along the curve. If the GPA was important then every law school would curve to a 3.7 so their students could get jobs.

do you think any employer is going to look at a 2.091 and say "hm, let me check the curve, maybe OP is median..."

no matter where you are on a curve, a sub 3.0 is a red flag to employers...

...and OP needs a 4.0 just to get back to a 3.0

That's very true. I meant more generally in these threads, and not specifically to OP. I think lower ranked schools curve to a lower median to hurt students' transfer chances, because of the psychological reaction you're getting at. You see a 2.8, and your immediate reaction is no. The benefit of a better employment outlook for students isn't really useful to these types of schools. They are less concerned with rankings, and are more concerned with immediate fed loan money than eventual alumni donations as they know they may be out of business in 10 years.

OP - a 2.0 is going to be very hard to come back from on a 3.0 curve. Also, in their totality grades may reflect your law school testing ability. You can improve, but it's already less likely for you to get a 4.0 than it would be for someone who already had a 4.0 to get a 4.0. If I was in your position I would drop out. Losing the scholarship is the worst scenario because now you're paying more for drastically reduced prospects. The school's LST score is largely irrelevant at this point. LST represents all students of a given year, and is useful to extract some semblance of your chances before starting 1L. At this point, the general score is irrelevant, because you're several standard deviations from the median.

[runinthefront]

Curve is a B

Is the only con in sticking it out another semester the cost of the semester's tuition? I have the drive and the motivation to go even harder this year, so I'm not worried about expending my time and energy towards turning this thing around. Worst case scenario I can always drop out after the full year. Someone convince me that 3 sub par grades is compelling enough to make the determination that I'm not cut out for this law thing, and I'll give more weight to dropping out.

Thanks for your help guys.

If you can maintain your scholarship and "right the ship" this semester, and you are 100% sure you want to be a lawyer, then that's a tough call. I mean, biglaw is out of the window (but it was probably already out of the window once you matriculated), and you could possibly find a decent internship this summer that could lead to a job/network with lawyers and agencies that don't care about your grades much...

I think you'd have to decide whether 20% of tuition + 5 months of living expenses + one semester's worth of foregone wages (doing whatever you could've been doing if you weren't in law school) is worth another shaky shot at practicing law. I think that's a personal decision, OP.

[AReasonableMan]

Curve is a B

Is the only con in sticking it out another semester the cost of the semester's tuition? I have the drive and the motivation to go even harder this year, so I'm not worried about expending my time and energy towards turning this thing around. Worst case scenario I can always drop out after the full year. Someone convince me that 3 sub par grades is compelling enough to make the determination that I'm not cut out for this law thing, and I'll give more weight to dropping out.

Thanks for your help guys.

If you can maintain your scholarship and "right the ship" this semester, and you are 100% sure you want to be a lawyer, then that's a tough call. I mean, biglaw is out of the window (but it was probably already out of the window once you matriculated), and you could possibly find a decent internship this summer that could lead to a job/network with lawyers and agencies that don't care about your grades much...

I think you'd have to decide whether 20% of tuition + 5 months of living expenses + one semester's worth of foregone wages (doing whatever you could've been doing if you weren't in law school) is worth another shaky shot at practicing law. I think that's a personal decision, OP.

In this analysis, you also have to make sure you're checking all immature reasons for choosing either option. These are reasons you will reflect back on in a decade from now, and realize were dumb choices you wish you could take back. Such motivations include but are not limited to:

1.) The annoyance of moving.
2.) What your friends, family and community will think.
3.) Your parents' dream of having a child who was a lawyer.
4.) The notion law is a sure pathway to wealth.

All of these reasons, particularly reasons 2 and 3 do have some value, and it's completely normal to worry about them. However, in the bigger picture they're not that important. Regarding 2.), people who aren't close friends or family don't think about your life and gossip about it as much as young people tend to think they do. Regarding 3.), your parents probably just want you to have a stability so they don't need to worry about you and be happy because they love you. Law is just a stereotypical pathway to this. With a 2.0 from a TT with a 3.0 median, law is likely not a pathway to this, and your parents would be going off of outdated, or more likely, presumptions that have always been incorrect. In all likelihood, the dream of making your parents proud is better served by dropping out of law school in your case.

[star fox]

Curve is a B

Is the only con in sticking it out another semester the cost of the semester's tuition? I have the drive and the motivation to go even harder this year, so I'm not worried about expending my time and energy towards turning this thing around. Worst case scenario I can always drop out after the full year. Someone convince me that 3 sub par grades is compelling enough to make the determination that I'm not cut out for this law thing, and I'll give more weight to dropping out.

Thanks for your help guys.

If you can maintain your scholarship and "right the ship" this semester, and you are 100% sure you want to be a lawyer, then that's a tough call. I mean, biglaw is out of the window (but it was probably already out of the window once you matriculated), and you could possibly find a decent internship this summer that could lead to a job/network with lawyers and agencies that don't care about your grades much...

I think you'd have to decide whether 20% of tuition + 5 months of living expenses + one semester's worth of foregone wages (doing whatever you could've been doing if you weren't in law school) is worth another shaky shot at practicing law. I think that's a personal decision, OP.

In this analysis, you also have to make sure you're checking all immature reasons for choosing either option. These are reasons you will reflect back on in a decade from now, and realize were dumb choices you wish you could take back. Such motivations include but are not limited to:

1.) The annoyance of moving.
2.) What your friends, family and community will think.
3.) Your parents' dream of having a child who was a lawyer.
4.) The notion law is a sure pathway to wealth.

All of these reasons, particularly reasons 2 and 3 do have some value, and it's completely normal to worry about them. However, in the bigger picture they're not that important. Regarding 2.), people who aren't close friends or family don't think about your life and gossip about it as much as young people tend to think they do. Regarding 3.), your parents probably just want you to have a stability so they don't need to worry about you and be happy because they love you. Law is just a stereotypical pathway to this. With a 2.0 from a TT with a 3.0 median, law is likely not a pathway to this, and your parents would be going off of outdated, or more likely, presumptions that have always been incorrect. In all likelihood, the dream of making your parents proud is better served by dropping out of law school in your case.

OP didn't mention their parents at all. Ultimatey OP it's your call. It probably wouldn't be a bad move to apply to jobs and if something satisfying to you bites then to take it.

[TheSpanishMain]

Curve is a B

Someone convince me that 3 sub par grades is compelling enough to make the determination that I'm not cut out for this law thing, and I'll give more weight to dropping out.

Thanks for your help guys.

I mean, if the curve is a B and you got three Cs, those grades are really sub-par. Are they discretionary grades?

Bombing three tests suggests that you didn't just have an off day. There were misfires across the board. Dropping out is a personal decision, but things ain't good right now.

[bad1LFallGrades]

Curve is a B

Someone convince me that 3 sub par grades is compelling enough to make the determination that I'm not cut out for this law thing, and I'll give more weight to dropping out.

Thanks for your help guys.

I mean, if the curve is a B and you got three Cs, those grades are really sub-par. Are they discretionary grades?

Bombing three tests suggests that you didn't just have an off day. There were misfires across the board. Dropping out is a personal decision, but things ain't good right now.

Well, 2 C's, but I hear you. And I apologize but I'm not too sure what a discretionary grade is, if you could elaborate on that then I can better answer that for you.

[star fox]

Curve is a B

Someone convince me that 3 sub par grades is compelling enough to make the determination that I'm not cut out for this law thing, and I'll give more weight to dropping out.

Thanks for your help guys.

I mean, if the curve is a B and you got three Cs, those grades are really sub-par. Are they discretionary grades?

Bombing three tests suggests that you didn't just have an off day. There were misfires across the board. Dropping out is a personal decision, but things ain't good right now.

Well, 2 C's, but I hear you. And I apologize but I'm not too sure what a discretionary grade is, if you could elaborate on that then I can better answer that for you.

Are there a certain amount of Cs that professors must award as part of the curve?

[bad1LFallGrades]

Yup

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I think you should drop out

[AReasonableMan]

Curve is a B

Is the only con in sticking it out another semester the cost of the semester's tuition? I have the drive and the motivation to go even harder this year, so I'm not worried about expending my time and energy towards turning this thing around. Worst case scenario I can always drop out after the full year. Someone convince me that 3 sub par grades is compelling enough to make the determination that I'm not cut out for this law thing, and I'll give more weight to dropping out.

Thanks for your help guys.

If you can maintain your scholarship and "right the ship" this semester, and you are 100% sure you want to be a lawyer, then that's a tough call. I mean, biglaw is out of the window (but it was probably already out of the window once you matriculated), and you could possibly find a decent internship this summer that could lead to a job/network with lawyers and agencies that don't care about your grades much...

I think you'd have to decide whether 20% of tuition + 5 months of living expenses + one semester's worth of foregone wages (doing whatever you could've been doing if you weren't in law school) is worth another shaky shot at practicing law. I think that's a personal decision, OP.

In this analysis, you also have to make sure you're checking all immature reasons for choosing either option. These are reasons you will reflect back on in a decade from now, and realize were dumb choices you wish you could take back. Such motivations include but are not limited to:

1.) The annoyance of moving.
2.) What your friends, family and community will think.
3.) Your parents' dream of having a child who was a lawyer.
4.) The notion law is a sure pathway to wealth.

All of these reasons, particularly reasons 2 and 3 do have some value, and it's completely normal to worry about them. However, in the bigger picture they're not that important. Regarding 2.), people who aren't close friends or family don't think about your life and gossip about it as much as young people tend to think they do. Regarding 3.), your parents probably just want you to have a stability so they don't need to worry about you and be happy because they love you. Law is just a stereotypical pathway to this. With a 2.0 from a TT with a 3.0 median, law is likely not a pathway to this, and your parents would be going off of outdated, or more likely, presumptions that have always been incorrect. In all likelihood, the dream of making your parents proud is better served by dropping out of law school in your case.

OP didn't mention their parents at all. Ultimatey OP it's your call. It probably wouldn't be a bad move to apply to jobs and if something satisfying to you bites then to take it.

Yeah, it's not specific to OP. I'm sure others are reading this thread and are in a similar position to OP. Frequently these are considerations that students voice in their decision. I've seen it both on here, and from a couple of students I kept in touch with. Just wanting to reinforce these should never be considerations, and nothing should other than your passion to practice law.

[UnicornHunter]

I would wait and see if your scholly holds up or not. While you certainly might turn things around, I don't think that's a bet worth putting serious cash on.