The Second Semester Trainwreck: Help? Forum

[elsea]

Hi TLS: I joined specifically to get advice from you all, so I look forward to hearing from you. Here's the lowdown. I'm a scholarship student at a T4 school. (I wanted to practice in the region, so it made sense to go there rather than the neighboring T2 at cost.) First semester was okay. I had days I liked, and days I didn't. I just did it and got through it- it was stressful, but I was driven to study 24/7. 3.13 GPA (A- in legal writing).

2nd semester, I was blindsided by a break up with the guy I thought I was going to marry, and I sunk into a deeeeep depression. I'll spare you the gory details: but bottom line was I could hardly think straight, was going to therapy once a week, on meds, and I went to talk to the local lawyers' assistance program regularly for their depression group. (Seriously, if you are in law school and having trouble mentally, your local LAP will be SO HELPFUL.) For me, the terror of 1L had kind of worn off and getting through every day was a challenge. Grades sucked. 2.46 GPA. (Another A- in legal writing saved me from being a total disaster.)

If my GPA was .01 lower, my scholarship would be GONE. I feel blessed for not completely f-in' up. This summer I am working two jobs: an internship with the company that I interned for in college (Paid better than a legal internship, and they're letting me do some tangential stuff for the legal department, and job shadow for a few days.) and I am a research assistant for one of my professors in my "free" time.

That being said, I can't tell whether I "like" it enough to keep on. I am doubting myself either way because I am still working out the mental kinks, but I'm doing better mental health wise. I know next to nothing about being a lawyer. All the attorneys I know hated law school, as for practice they either live and breathe the law, or they quit being lawyers because they hated it so much.

So, lay it on me. What are your thoughts?

[6lehderjets]

How much debt are you looking if you finish? Are you on a full scholly?

If you do stay, choose your classes wisely and boost your GPA. Take easier classes, preferably some that aren't curved. Ask upperclassmen and profs you trust for recommendations..

Sorry to hear about the relationship.

[MinEMorris]

I'm not sure I can really give you any advice per se, but I figured I might at least be able to help define your problem.

First, I'm really sorry to hear about your personal issues, but I'm glad that you were able to pull through everything without disaster. Good job hanging on.

Assuming that you mean tier 4 by T4, and assuming that a 2.64 or whatever you have is somewhere near median, you should be aware that your job prospects are going to seriously suck coming out of law school. (At least, that's my impression. If someone has more experience or knowledge in the area, feel free to chime in.) And by seriously suck, I mean that you will likely be forced into doc review, local solo practice, or perhaps (if you're lucky) joining a small firm with a very minimal salary. And that's assuming that you're able to find any legal work at all. In short, if you do choose a legal career, you are likely looking at a desperate one that involves very little prestige, a ton of hustle, and very-bottom-of-the-pack pay.

I'm not saying that to be critical, I just think that you need to be very clear on that when making your decision. Personally, I think the chips are stacked against you continuing. If you're ambivalent at all about wanting to be a lawyer, I don't know why you'd go through two more years of tuition and missing out on full-time work pay to start in a very difficult spot just to find out if law fits you. Even if you felt absolutely positive that being a lawyer would make all of your dreams come true, I would still have a hard time advising you to go forward. Law is one of the unhappiest professions on the planet. Even those that whole-heartedly believe they'll love it are usually wrong.

I hope that helps and doesn't come off as too cynical. Good luck to you in whatever you choose.

[elsea]

Jet: Best case scenario: around 20k. I'm on a 1/3 scholarship. Then savings for as much as I can handle, and loans for the rest.

My next best alternative is hope my company can find a place for me somewhere, doing something, and doesn't want to spurn me because I bailed on law school. (No one likes a quitter.)

Eh.... he's gonna be worse off than most law grads. He'll either be waiting tables, or debt financing a PhD in Philosophy. Can't say I feel sorry for him any more. I was the best thing he had going for him.

MinE: What I need right now is a dose of reality, and what you're saying is actually pretty consistent with how it looks in the area. Lots of firms in the area recently downsized, and there are a bunch of really smart experienced attorneys competing with new law grads for shitlaw. Thanks for your thoughts.

[NYSprague]

This line of no one likes a quitter is the stupidest reason possible to justify staying in school.
You have bad grades at a bad school. You are unlikely to find a job practicing law. You aren't even sure you want to be a lawyer.

I don't know which market but I don't think it matters much.

I think you should go back to your old job and tell them that law school wasn't what you expected and you don't intend to be a lawyer.

[NotMyRealName09]

Your grades are terrible. You're not on a full scholarship. Sorry about your personal problems and it's good you're addressing them, but that has no bearing on your career prospects. If you're able to even land a legal job, it probably won't pay well unless you get super lucky or know someone. You want an opinion - there are more law students than there are jobs, there are top students at better schools who cannot find decent legal jobs, and you're less likely than they are to find career satisfaction. Do you REALLY want to be a lawyer? If so, proceed. If not, that's ok. I say cut your losses.

[pom fig]

That does sound like a crappy situation to be in, and I'm sorry to hear that elsea.
The other posters above seem to have very good points.
However, if you aren't sure that you DON'T want to be a lawyer yet, is taking some time off to figure stuff out an option for you?
Also, were you a K-JD, or do you have some years of work experience after college?
I only ask because having some distance can help a person gain some perspective and know him or herself a little better. It may also help us in trying to give better personalized advice to you.

[hous]

Will you likely have a job lined up at graduation that will require a JD?

If not, which is unfortunately common, then I say drop out. You are using your savings up, giving up an additional 2 years of lost income, and taking out some, relatively nominal, loans.

[jbagelboy]

First, sorry to hear about your personal troubles. They can be devastating to academics, I know firsthand.

I would definitely drop out. really the only justifications for staying at third or fourth tier schools are 1) to transfer to a strong regional or top program (which requires grades you don't have), or 2) if you already know what you want to practice and have a job lined up/nearly lined up in that specific practice.

There is no other reason to complete a JD at one of these programs, since ultimately, they will not help you find employment, legal or otherwise. I woudl try to milk your current position and see if they would consider taking you on full time in the fall.

[shock259]

Really sorry to hear about the personal stuff. It can be a huge distraction.

I agree with the others that you should drop out. Basing this one a few things:
1) Your grades are not good. Law school grades, unlike undergrad grades, are extremely important for career trajectory. Personality, putting in legwork, and other things that may have worked for getting a job out of undergrad are not applicable here.
2) Your school is not good. Not sure which one it is, but it doesn't really matter. I'm sure at least half your class is unemployed, and you're well below the middle of the pack for grades.
3) You don't seem that committed to being a lawyer. Biggest red flag of all.

Good luck with your decision!

[Gefuehlsecht]

Go and don't look back. Best of luck.

[elsea]

Thanks for your candid thoughts, everyone.

Interestingly, one of my classmates (from another section) contacted my company, doing some research on "JD Advantage" positions for one of his law professors. He wants a tour and wants to know where all the lawyers are. (Hint: in legal) It looks like a good opportunity to open up a discussion about how a law-school trained worker can fit into the company (with the subtext of how I can make my little legal adventure work for them). My supervisor kind of shook her head and was like: "Well, if a lawyer applies for a non-legal job, we hire them because they're a good fit for the job, not because they're trained to be attorneys."

So yeah, there's that. I'm going to keep pondering for awhile.

[thesealocust]

Drop out of law school.

[BigRob]

End relationship -> sink into a deep depression requiring medication and therapy. What is this I don't even. Insufficient character and fitness. Also, tier four law school...................?

Drop out of law school.

[paayter]

i'd say drop out...getting a third scholarship at a tier 4 is well...not a great option. there are many people on this site that won't even go to a tier 1 law with even a half scholarship. sorry.

[moonel123]

I am going to take the other side of this argument here regarding the people that are telling you to just quit. I am really a bit surprised at all this advice. Really, just quit because things are tough and your not at a top tier law school? Seriously? Because you aren't at HSY your school is sh!t? Garbage. And your grades are not the best in the class so surely this isn't for you. BS I am also surprised at the advice telling you that you will only get thankless and no prestige level legal jobs. I'll reread again as I am not sure where you are but your law school may be perfectly suited for your situation and where you are heading afterwards. I didn't go to a top tier school, but I am not doing bad at all! What some here would describe as a lessor education I have seen help businesses hang onto their money, families hold onto their wealth, mothers not lose their children, poor people not get ripped off by bigger players who only care about their own selfish needs, and people able to provide equivalent legal services (comparable to a big expensive well known firm) for half the cost because they have a niche that suits them and they understand it is about helping people and serving. It is not supposed to be be about being some greedy elite wannabe rip off artist which some don't get. And neither did many of my friends go top tier schools who are doing just fine. They have families, good careers, and are making a good living doing what they enjoy. Some are even moving up in local government. People on this forum are often confused about what the legal world and it's opportunities are in the first place. Most people have to start at the bottom of any field they go into regardless so don't worry about having to do sh!t legal work when you start out. It's called developing experience and competence and there is no way around it! Even if you go into another field completely after law school it is likely many of your peers will not have a law degree or your educational equivalent and it can be important in standing out. Once you are a couple years removed from law school it is your experience, who you know, and what you can do for someone that are far more important.

[moonel123]

Law school sucks yes. But you are probably still very young and it will be over before you know it anyway. Something in you got you this far and you have what it takes to finish imo. I just don't see a downside to sticking it out other than it will suck for a bit.

[Micdiddy]

Law school sucks yes. But you are probably still very young and it will be over before you know it anyway. Something in you got you this far and you have what it takes to finish imo. I just don't see a downside to sticking it out other than it will suck for a bit.

The downside is wasting all your savings AND then going into debt and having nothing to show for it. Much better to drop out and use that savings while you look for another career, imo.

[moonel123]

Heavens a law degree is a great education and that is never wasted imo. Valuable in any field one goes into as well afterwards. It also says something about ones character that sets them apart from having completed it as well because it is hard and does suck. Personally speaking from experience in hiring and firing various types of employees there is a difference in many people I have noticed that have attained this discipline versus people that just have a Bachelors or nothing at all. There are always exceptions though. Even if times get tough and you end up working at a fast food restaurant your likely going to end up in management and keep going up. Just my opinion though. Everyone's financial situation is different. I had friends who got into higher tier schools but went to a lower one because it was basically free. Depending on how young you are and how well you can delay gratification in sticking to a budget you would be surprised how quick you can knock that debt down at least to manageable payments and when you are in your thirties it's gone or negligible.

[timmyd]

How much do you want to be a lawyer?
Understand that the big firm thing is out the window, but that might not be the end of the world. I know alot of people, including myself, don't find the firm life to be fulfilling (essentially you are helping large companies save money and structure transactions in a beneficial way.) If you are having doubts, I recommend doing this summer and seeing if you still dont like it. If you truly want to be a lawyer after this summer than I would stick it out. You can still do meaningful work representing downtrodden clients and may get emotional fulfillment out of the experience. If you are not completely set on law after actually seeing it firsthand this summer...drop out, easy call.

[timmyd]

I would also like to make something clear...any prestigious career in law is out the windows. Not necessarily because you got to a tttt, but because you have middling grades. As someone indicated earlier, you can rock a tttt and transfer to a great school and have a fulfilling legal career in terms of "prestige". That is not your situation. You will be making 40k a year staring out if you can get a job. Is being a lawyer worth that to you?

[Micdiddy]

Heavens a law degree is a great education and that is never wasted imo. Valuable in any field one goes into as well afterwards. It also says something about ones character that sets them apart from having completed it as well because it is hard and does suck. Personally speaking from experience in hiring and firing various types of employees there is a difference in many people I have noticed that have attained this discipline versus people that just have a Bachelors or nothing at all. There are always exceptions though. Even if times get tough and you end up working at a fast food restaurant your likely going to end up in management and keep going up. Just my opinion though. Everyone's financial situation is different. I had friends who got into higher tier schools but went to a lower one because it was basically free. Depending on how young you are and how well you can delay gratification in sticking to a budget you would be surprised how quick you can knock that debt down at least to manageable payments and when you are in your thirties it's gone or negligible.

I don't really think just any law degree is automatically valuable or a great education. Literally anyone can get into some law school in this country. Possibly the education at worst schools has more-than-zero benefit, but likely far far less than the education one would have received spending 3 years doing something else and not wasting all their savings. Just my opinion though.

[thesealocust]

Heavens a law degree is a great education and that is never wasted imo. Valuable in any field one goes into as well afterwards. It also says something about ones character that sets them apart from having completed it as well because it is hard and does suck. Personally speaking from experience in hiring and firing various types of employees there is a difference in many people I have noticed that have attained this discipline versus people that just have a Bachelors or nothing at all. There are always exceptions though. Even if times get tough and you end up working at a fast food restaurant your likely going to end up in management and keep going up. Just my opinion though. Everyone's financial situation is different. I had friends who got into higher tier schools but went to a lower one because it was basically free. Depending on how young you are and how well you can delay gratification in sticking to a budget you would be surprised how quick you can knock that debt down at least to manageable payments and when you are in your thirties it's gone or negligible.

This is godawful advice. The sad truth is that with the cost of law school and the abysmal employment landscape, "if at first you don't succeed quit and don't admit to trying" is overwhelmingly correct.

"You can do anything with a law degree" is no more true than "you can do anything without a law degree." Some people do compelling and unconventional things with them, but in the current economic climate huge numbers have the albatross of massive debt with materially worsened career prospects as a consequence of attending law school.

[Mal Reynolds]

Drop out of law school.

[jbagelboy]

Heavens a law degree is a great education and that is never wasted imo. Valuable in any field one goes into as well afterwards. It also says something about ones character that sets them apart from having completed it as well because it is hard and does suck. Personally speaking from experience in hiring and firing various types of employees there is a difference in many people I have noticed that have attained this discipline versus people that just have a Bachelors or nothing at all. There are always exceptions though. Even if times get tough and you end up working at a fast food restaurant your likely going to end up in management and keep going up. Just my opinion though. Everyone's financial situation is different. I had friends who got into higher tier schools but went to a lower one because it was basically free. Depending on how young you are and how well you can delay gratification in sticking to a budget you would be surprised how quick you can knock that debt down at least to manageable payments and when you are in your thirties it's gone or negligible.

I don't really think just any law degree is automatically valuable or a great education. Literally anyone can get into some law school in this country. Possibly the education at worst schools has more-than-zero benefit, but likely far far less than the education one would have received spending 3 years doing something else and not wasting all their savings. Just my opinion though.

I dispute even the nominal premise that there is anything to be gained by this vast expense of time, money and energy.

Most TTTT law degrees are non-zero, negative value to a CV, especially if your undergraduate degree is from an accredited, ranked university. It will actually hurt OP on the job market to have to broadcast poor performance at such an 'institution.' I'm not saying this to be rude or elitist. For recruiters and interviewers in the legal profession who know the school, the academic record would prejudice against her since the industry has largely accepted these schools to be scams just one or two rungs above mail-order. For other industries OP would most likely be targeting such as retail and food service, where the name could preserve some anonymity, OP would be treated as overqualified and a flight risk.

As for intellectual value of this JD, first it does not appear OP has derived significant academic benefit from her foundational curriculum this far; her saving grades have been legal writing, which means contracts, torts, property ect were misunderstood or unappreciated (although the higher legal writing mark suggests positively that Op could excel in a different setting via decent command of the english language). Second, in a program like this the credited approach if she stayed would be to fill the schedule with bar courses to save money on post-bar prep and allow her to sit for the bar ASAP - most legal jobs from non-T1 schools are obtained after passing the bar in the target market. The wrinkle of course is that as stated Op has not displayed a particular academic predilection for this type of class or material, and it is unlikely she would draw much intellectual satisfaction from 2 more years of similar rather tedious effort; lastly, it's unlikely her professors will be Legal academic superstars like Guido calabresi and henry paul monaghan.

Personal satisfaction or fulfillment as added value? This is much more of a personal question, but from what I've seen so far, again, at best neutral. Law school will always be jaded in OP's memory by the crushing experience of this semester; its unlikely under those circumstances that a strong community or friendship/relationship network developed that would be pursuable over the next two years.

And as for the final point made about perseverance and all that jazz, yes the feeling of accomplishment with "finishing" something is real and not entirely abstract, but that really only applies to those accomplishments that are generally widely regarded as worth achieving. As all the responses indicate, this would generally not fall into that category.

I mean no disrespect. I think OP could have a brilliant career outside law, and I do not mean to pass judgment on their capabilities in another profession or their intelligence based on asinine law school exams and shitty circumstances.