Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing? Forum

[loblaw]

[futurelawyer413]

+1, it doesn't matter.

[Bronte]

There must be some type of real disability which puts these kids at a disadvantage. I can't imagine ADHD being the reason.

ADHD is definitely one of the reasons that students get more time on LS exams.

[Borhas]

Those guys and gals got up to 3 hours more than you did to take the exam, and got to take it in a private room.

"Learning disabilities" in law school.

How does that make you feel?

I'm cool with it

[Bronte]

people who complain about this are the same people who complain about URM's "taking their spots."

Be lucky your biggest problems in life aren't that the fucking letters on the page look backwards, cerebral palsy, or crippling academic anxiety (of which the only effective treatment usually involves medication that slightly but demonstrably impacts things like typing/writing and memory).

jeez this thread is full of hate.

Okay, I get it. However, I was a teacher at an elementary school for two years before law school (teach for america baby). Learning disabilities do exist and they hamper the way someone learns in VERY extreme ways. Granted, i think it's crack if you abuse the system. But, are you willing to take away "special tools" for the learning disabled b/c some people abuse the system?

I'm not necessarily against the policy, but I think the empathy argument is a little misguided. What's the difference between providing extra time to someone with ADHD and providing extra time to someone who is innately less intelligence (e.g., has a lower IQ)? Most of our traits are innate and out of our control, yet most systems are still merit-based. In short, life isn't fair.

[goodgrief]

Just saying, as someone who done test taking with ADHD meds and without, and generally without extra time, I do somewhat worse without medication, but I actually work more slowly when I'm on it due to the effects. It's not that I'm dumb or cheating the system when I do take extra time, it's that there are chemical differences in my brain, both from a "normal" person and from being medicated/not medicated. You have to understand that no med works exactly the same way for every person, and no ld acts exactly the same way.

In a work situation, you aren't sitting down with 3 hours to answer however many questions and competing with people for the A+. Yes, you're competing to keep your hard earned job, but that's a result of a long series of assignments over weeks and years, depending on where you are in a career, not just one exam per class.

I may or may not take extra time on exams. That'll be between me and the school. No one should assume that people who do take it are cheating the system or only got to where they are because they got a time advantage on exams.

[BruceWayne]

I'm not sure how they factor in since I know of no one who receives extra time for a learning disability at UVA. I'd of course be upset to learn that one of them received an A+ for an 8000 word answer on a three hour exam (if he's typing that much, he obviously received too much extra time), but I doubt that happens very often, if ever. No school would ever do this, but I do think it would be worth tracking the students who receive extra time to ensure that their grades form a normal distribution. If the students receiving extra time tend to do significantly better, this indicates they have an unfair advantage (unless the disabled are just naturally gifted, which seems improbable).

It bothered me a lot more once I realized that many of the same people are the one's getting A's and A+s.

+1

[Borhas]

Just saying, as someone who done test taking with ADHD meds and without, and generally without extra time, I do somewhat worse without medication, but I actually work more slowly when I'm on it due to the effects. It's not that I'm dumb or cheating the system when I do take extra time, it's that there are chemical differences in my brain, both from a "normal" person and from being medicated/not medicated. You have to understand that no med works exactly the same way for every person, and no ld acts exactly the same way.

In a work situation, you aren't sitting down with 3 hours to answer however many questions and competing with people for the A+. Yes, you're competing to keep your hard earned job, but that's a result of a long series of assignments over weeks and years, depending on where you are in a career, not just one exam per class.

I may or may not take extra time on exams. That'll be between me and the school. No one should assume that people who do take it are cheating the system or only got to where they are because they got a time advantage on exams.

if you take meds and take extra time you are a cheating mother fucker

[dresden doll]

Your an idiot for not understanding what having a learning disability is.

You're an idiot because you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're".

he has a learning disability, you insensitive fuck

Well played, corgi.

[bceagles182]

What is the difference between inheriting a learning disability and inheriting a lack of intelligence?

Neither one is a choice, both will make you a shitty lawyer (at least in a relative sense to others), and yet for some reason we make accomodations for one and not for the other.

[dresden doll]

What is the difference between inheriting a learning disability and inheriting a lack of intelligence?

Neither one is a choice, both will make you a shitty lawyer (at least in a relative sense to others), and yet for some reason we make accomodations for one and not for the other.

Except that people with disabilities can perform if given appropriate accommodations whereas nothing can make up for stupidity.

[bceagles182]

Are we going to give them accommodations in the court room? If not, then the difference is irrelevant.

[dresden doll]

Are we going to give them accommodations in the court room? If not, then the difference is irrelevant.

You're aware that the vast majority of lawyers will never step into the courtroom, correct?

[dailygrind]

What is the difference between inheriting a learning disability and inheriting a lack of intelligence?

Neither one is a choice, both will make you a shitty lawyer (at least in a relative sense to others), and yet for some reason we make accomodations for one and not for the other.

Except that people with disabilities can perform if given appropriate accommodations whereas nothing can make up for stupidity.

::shrug:: if I had an extra hour on each exam I took, any stupidity I had would be a lot more covered up. But I know a dude who halfway sliced his finger off right before exams, and he still didn't get any extra time. With an attitude like that, I have a hard time begrudging anyone the school does give extra time to.

[pattonthicke]

Except that people with disabilities can perform if given appropriate accommodations whereas nothing can make up for stupidity.

You probably took his argument in the wrong way. Being stupid is being stupid, but a lack of intelligence can be made up if one is given extra time. If i had an extra 5 min per section on the lsat i''l be going to yale in the fall.

[bceagles182]

Okay, fine. Are their managing partners going to give them additional time to complete assignments? No. Regardless of how you slice it, the accomodations end after law school, and all other things being equal (intelligence/drive/etc), lawyers with learning disabilities will not perform to the same level as lawyers without them.

[bmore]

Bravo Fat Duck.!! I agree with accomodations. However there are some that take advantage. For ex. a classmate of mine had an untimed SAT. He said he finished in close to regulation time and then spent the rest of the time going over it again and again until he felt great about it. That is not how the test is designed. He did not need all that time to complete the test. I guess I feel that when you get to the point where you feel the playing field has been leveled, you should not proceed. Does that make sense?

[bceagles182]

Bravo Fat Duck.!! I agree with accomodations. However there are some that take advantage. For ex. a classmate of mine had an untimed SAT. He said he finished in close to regulation time and then spent the rest of the time going over it again and again until he felt great about it. That is not how the test is designed. He did not need all that time to complete the test. I guess I feel that when you get to the point where you feel the playing field has been leveled, you should not proceed. Does that make sense?

You have an incredibly naive faith in humanity.

[dresden doll]

Okay, fine. Are their managing partners going to give them additional time to complete assignments? No. Regardless of how you slice it, the accomodations end after law school, and all other things (intelligence/drive/etc), lawyers with learning disabilities will not perform to the same level as lawyers without them.

Deadlines at an actual job aren't as time sensitive as law school exams. You'll typically have at least a couple of days to do whatever you're asked. So, yeah, maybe you'll have to stay a few extra hours in the office after everyone has gone home to make sure you comply with the next day's deadline, but chances are you can make it just fine. If people with learning disabilities are willing to expend the extra time out of their day to complete the assignment, that's solely their problem.

[bceagles182]

Okay, fine. Are their managing partners going to give them additional time to complete assignments? No. Regardless of how you slice it, the accomodations end after law school, and all other things (intelligence/drive/etc), lawyers with learning disabilities will not perform to the same level as lawyers without them.

Deadlines at an actual job aren't as time sensitive as law school exams. You'll typically have at least a couple of days to do whatever you're asked. So, yeah, maybe you'll have to stay a few extra hours in the office after everyone has gone home to make sure you comply with the next day's deadline, but chances are you can make it just fine. If people with learning disabilities are willing to expend the extra time out of their day to complete the assignment, that's solely their problem.

And their clients', who are paying them by the hour.

[Borhas]

Are we going to give them accommodations in the court room? If not, then the difference is irrelevant.

You're aware that the vast majority of lawyers will never step into the courtroom, correct?

maybe give them twice as long, but cut their billable rate in half?

[dresden doll]

And their clients', who are paying them by the hour.

Dude, billables can be adjusted. What it really boils down to in the end is that the challenged person will be billing less efficiently than everyone else and will consequently need to spend extra time in the office to reach the billable target. This is a burden they alone ultimately bear. If they're happy to take it on and work extra 20 hours per week to reach the goal, I don't particularly see why you should care.

[bceagles182]

I am extremely skeptical that any firm adjusts its billable rates for attorneys that have learning disabilities. Give me a break.

And regardless, that's not even necessarily true. I know partners who drop assignments on associates' desks at 7 pm and ask for the work to be done by the following morning. Oftentimes this will require pulling an all-nighter.

So unless we're going to attach addendums to their degrees, that say "This attorney can ever see the inside of a court room or work in a place with short deadlines" then they should not be given accomodations in law school.

[joemoviebuff]

Your an idiot for not understanding what having a learning disability is.

Is it really a disability if you have learned to overcome it and have had enough academic success to be admitted to law school?

Having earned a M.Ed. in special education, I would be sorely dissapointed in myself if I didn't know what a learning disability was.

lol at the idea that being admitted to law school is by itself indicative of academic success.

[dresden doll]

I am extremely skeptical that any firm adjusts its billable rates for attorneys that have learning disabilities. Give me a break.

You apparently think that 1 hour in real time = 1 billable hour. This is patently wrong, but you can carry on as you wish.

As for the rest of your argument, partners can easily select the more efficient of associates for extremely time sensitive tasks. The fact of the matter is that people with disabilities can and do just fine in the real world and that your gripe really boils down to annoyance over the possibility that leveling the playing the field will allow them to outperform you on LS exams.