Going part-time and working full-time, is top 10% possible Forum

[sparty99]

Are there any PT students who worked FT (9-6, 8-5) and finished in the top 10% of their class?

[dpk711]

Even if you didn't work top 10% would be hard.

[Giddy-Up]

I just graduated and went part time. We have not gotten our final ranks, but as of last semester I was #4 out of 339. I worked about 50 hours per week, full time

[xyzbca]

After 3 semesters I was top 10%. Still waiting for two more grades from this past semester.

Top 10% while working FT is doable, but it takes lots of dedication and organization.

[CurbYourEnthusiasm]

Giddy and xyzbca, anyway you can share how you were able to juggle work and school to be able to place towards the top of the class? I'm thinking about going PT, and would love to get your insight on your study habits, when you did your work, etc.

[bhan87]

Possible? Sure. Recommended? Probably not... even part-time, law school is a LOT of work

[xyzbca]

Giddy and xyzbca, anyway you can share how you were able to juggle work and school to be able to place towards the top of the class? I'm thinking about going PT, and would love to get your insight on your study habits, when you did your work, etc.

Giddy and xyzbca, anyway you can share how you were able to juggle work and school to be able to place towards the top of the class? I'm thinking about going PT, and would love to get your insight on your study habits, when you did your work, etc.

Obligatory everybody is different and what works for me might not work for you.

*Put me in the camp that does not believe LS material requires a lot of mental firepower. It does require discipline and organization. Half the battle is just putting yourself in a position to succeed in school. School and work are stressful enough. Try to remove anything else that may cause stress.

*I did about 85% of my reading on the weekend. I did the rest before or after class Mon-Thurs. I set aside Friday nights to relax. No school or work related stuff at all on Friday nights.

*Obviously, time is my most precious commodity. I try to take care of anything that is not related to school, my job, or my family while school is out of session. Everything from Doctor/Dentist appointments to maintenance on cars to refinancing my home mortgage occurs while school is out.

*Set a schedule at work and try to stick to it. I moved to a 7:30-4:30 schedule and did virtually zero work work outside of those hours (I ate lunch at my desk most days).

*Stay ahead of things at work. You'll have slow times at work and it'll be tempting to relax. I encourage you to use that time to get ahead at work; this will minimize stress for you when things are busy.

*Stay ahead of things at school. Hopefully, you'll have at least one class where you understand the material and don't need lectures to understand the material. Read ahead in that class. Most people are still reading and learning new material the week before finals. I'm usually done with reading for at least two classes five weeks before finals start and I use that extra free time to review and prepare for finals. Note: this runs the risk of reading material that won't be covered on the exam if the professor doesn't stick to the syllabus. There was one class where I ended up with notes on about 150 pages worth of material that we didn't get to at the end of the semester.

*Take care of yourself and use your income to make your life easier. Try to eat right and exercise throughout the semester. This sounds dramatic but, IMHO, finals are almost like a war of attrition. By the time exams roll around a lot of people are mentally fried and don't have the energy to "make it to the finish line." You'll do better than half the class just by being in the right mental state for finals. Spend money to make your life easier. I'm ashamed to admit a lawn service takes care of my yard now. Maybe you'll use a laundry service; you get the idea.

[haus]

xyzbca,

Thanks for sharing. I have a follow up question, one school that I have been looking at for their PT program is George Mason. I have been rather taken aback by their 1L schedule, which includes classes Monday thru Friday. While I expect the notion of attending a PT program while working and having a family will be challenging, it seems that a fifth night of classes a week would make finding a balance between study and free time difficult.

If you had a fifth night of classes, what impact would you imagine it would have on your experiences?

[sparty99]

Giddy and xyzbca, anyway you can share how you were able to juggle work and school to be able to place towards the top of the class? I'm thinking about going PT, and would love to get your insight on your study habits, when you did your work, etc.

Giddy and xyzbca, anyway you can share how you were able to juggle work and school to be able to place towards the top of the class? I'm thinking about going PT, and would love to get your insight on your study habits, when you did your work, etc.

Obligatory everybody is different and what works for me might not work for you.

*Put me in the camp that does not believe LS material requires a lot of mental firepower. It does require discipline and organization. Half the battle is just putting yourself in a position to succeed in school. School and work are stressful enough. Try to remove anything else that may cause stress.

*I did about 85% of my reading on the weekend. I did the rest before or after class Mon-Thurs. I set aside Friday nights to relax. No school or work related stuff at all on Friday nights.

*Obviously, time is my most precious commodity. I try to take care of anything that is not related to school, my job, or my family while school is out of session. Everything from Doctor/Dentist appointments to maintenance on cars to refinancing my home mortgage occurs while school is out.

*Set a schedule at work and try to stick to it. I moved to a 7:30-4:30 schedule and did virtually zero work work outside of those hours (I ate lunch at my desk most days).

*Stay ahead of things at work. You'll have slow times at work and it'll be tempting to relax. I encourage you to use that time to get ahead at work; this will minimize stress for you when things are busy.

*Stay ahead of things at school. Hopefully, you'll have at least one class where you understand the material and don't need lectures to understand the material. Read ahead in that class. Most people are still reading and learning new material the week before finals. I'm usually done with reading for at least two classes five weeks before finals start and I use that extra free time to review and prepare for finals. Note: this runs the risk of reading material that won't be covered on the exam if the professor doesn't stick to the syllabus. There was one class where I ended up with notes on about 150 pages worth of material that we didn't get to at the end of the semester.

*Take care of yourself and use your income to make your life easier. Try to eat right and exercise throughout the semester. This sounds dramatic but, IMHO, finals are almost like a war of attrition. By the time exams roll around a lot of people are mentally fried and don't have the energy to "make it to the finish line." You'll do better than half the class just by being in the right mental state for finals. Spend money to make your life easier. I'm ashamed to admit a lawn service takes care of my yard now. Maybe you'll use a laundry service; you get the idea.

Thanks for the info...Can you provide an example of your schedule. For example, wake up at 6:00 am, take the bus to work (did you study while taking the bus?). Did you study at lunch? What were your class schedule ( 5:30 to 9:30 classes), take the bus home (did you study).....Did you eat on-campus?

Were you eating fast food everyday (I don't think you would have time to cook)...When you got home, did you study from 10:30 to midnight? Or until 2:00 am, etc? And then how many hours did you study on the weekend? 4 hours a day, Saturday and Sunday? Or was it 12 hours both day?

Or if you don't want to go into that detail, can you at least state how many hours you spent studying during the week (not including class time).

[xyzbca]

xyzbca,

Thanks for sharing. I have a follow up question, one school that I have been looking at for their PT program is George Mason. I have been rather taken aback by their 1L schedule, which includes classes Monday thru Friday. While I expect the notion of attending a PT program while working and having a family will be challenging, it seems that a fifth night of classes a week would make finding a balance between study and free time difficult.

If you had a fifth night of classes, what impact would you imagine it would have on your experiences?

I think your instincts are correct and I would be concerned about classes five nights a week.

There is an ambiguous ABA rule out there which some schools interpret to mean that a PT program is required to have 1E and 2E students attend class five nights a week. That said, knowing what I know now, I would shy away from classes five nights a week. In theory you still have the same amount of in class time, but I just can't imagine doing it five nights a week. Personally, I'm ready to collapse from exhaustion by Friday night.

In theory, once you get to your 3E/4E years you'll have the freedom to schedule your classes in as little as three nights a week. If you can get through the first two years there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Can you provide an example of your schedule. For example, wake up at 6:00 am, take the bus to work (did you study while taking the bus?). Did you study at lunch? What were your class schedule ( 5:30 to 9:30 classes), take the bus home (did you study).....Did you eat on-campus?

...

When you got home, did you study from 10:30 to midnight? Or until 2:00 am, etc? And then how many hours did you study on the weekend? 4 hours a day, Saturday and Sunday? Or was it 12 hours both day?

Disclaimer: Don't freak out over my schedule. I'm convinced that I probably could have landed top 10% at my school with about 80% of the effort I put in.

The following was my first year schedule. I missed one workout throughout the year. I took vacation time around finals so my schedule was a little different in the week before finals, but generally, I stayed true to this schedule. I realize this schedule is pretty regimented but my military background makes me a fairly disciplined person that sticks to this kind of thing.

M/W - Wake up 5:00 A.M. Hit the gym for a 90 minute workout. Home by 6:50 A.M. At the office by 7:30 A.M. About once a month attend a lunch-time speaker on campus. Leave work at 4:30 P.M. On campus by 5:15 P.M. Generally, in class from 6:00 P.M. to 9:00 P.M. Home by about 9:40 P.M. Catch up with my wife until around 10:00 P.M. Read until 11:45 P.M. Usually asleep by midnight.

T/Th. - Wake up at 6:00 A.M. 5 mile run around my neighborhood. At the office by 7:30 A.M and roughly the same schedule as above.

F - Same M/W daytime schedule but no class or law school stuff. Typically, I just loafed around the house with my wife at night, we would order takeout and I would call it an early evening to make up for lost sleep.

Sat - Wake up 7:00 A.M. 5 mile run. On campus in time for the opening of the library at 9:00 A.M. Back home by 4:30 P.M. Attend Saturday evening Mass and then usually go out for an early dinner with my wife. Back home around 8:00 P.M. Read for two more hours.

Sun - Sleep in to 8:00 A.M. Rest day from working out. Study at home from about 10 A.M to 6:00 P.M. Spend the evening with my wife and prepare for the upcoming week. My study group met about twice a month and we would usually do it on Sunday afternoons at somebody's house.

My kid was born in between 1E and 2E so that changed the schedule up as my wife and I learned how to balance the additional responsibility. By spring break of second semester I was back on the above schedule.

Typically, I spent about eighty minutes a day in the car. I usually listened to audio supplements while commuting (talk to 2L's and 3L's at your school, they'll help you find the audio stuff; check iTunes as well, I have a classmate who did very well and he swears by some of the free podcasts you can find on iTunes).

Were you eating fast food everyday (I don't think you would have time to cook)...

1E I usually grabbed dinner on the law quad (we have our own full service dining facility). The facility has a limited selection of healthier items so 2E year I got a meal plan for one of the general cafeterias which is just off the law quad (completely dorky, I know, but I wanted access to a salad bar).

edit: spelling

[haus]

xyzbca,

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with me and others here on the forum.

[random5483]

Anything is possible, but we have to live in a world of probable. Chances are going to law school part time and having a full time job will hurt you. A student who is top 10% under those circumstances would likely do better going to law school full-time.

For some people, part-time law school makes sense. But if you are a fresh college grad (or even under 30/early in your career), a full-time law program is probably better. getting a job after law school without legal internships will be a challenge. Part-time law school works great for some people, but for most of us, a full-time program is probably a better idea.

[Giddy-Up]

Giddy and xyzbca, anyway you can share how you were able to juggle work and school to be able to place towards the top of the class? I'm thinking about going PT, and would love to get your insight on your study habits, when you did your work, etc.

I would echo a lot of what xyzbca said. Largely, it is about time management. I really enjoyed the "law school legend" series and "sum and substance". Both are audio supplements. Generally, an entire course is covered in 5 hours. They have a pretty wide selection and cover most of the standard courses, particularly the statute specific courses (commercial paper, secured transactions, bankruptcy etc.) On school days I had about 2.5 hours of commute time (45 min into work, 45 min into school, and about 60 min home from school), on non-school days I had 1.5 hours of commute time. I listened to the cds every single day. It got to the point where you had the entire course memorized, almost without trying, just because you heard it over and over again. This helped immensely, particularly because after the first week I had heard the entire course at least once.

Granted, this is probably a bit more risky with some of the policy heavy classes. I tended to stay away from those anyway. For a course like Secured Transactions, the content of the course is not going to differ significantly by professor.

On the weekends, I tried to keep up with the readings. Another thing that worked really well for me was to take almost no notes. I found that I absorbed the material a lot better if I did not have to concentrate on making notes. As others have pointed out, you can usually get an outline from someone else who took the class or from an outline bank.

There are a number of drawbacks to part time: (1) There is much less time for socialization, particularly if you have a family and do not live near the school. With the exception of a handful of people, I did not get to know my classmates that well. (2) Finding a job may be more difficult, particularly if you intend to participate in OCI. However, there are a number of people in the evening program that are currently working for the company that they plan to work with after finishing their law degrees, myself included. If you work for one of these companies, things are certainly better. You do not even have to worry about the stress of OCI. (3) It is difficult to participate in extracurricular activities. The only activity I did was Law Review, and I only did it to put it on my resume. There is no way I could have handled the work of one of the more senior positions, I could barely handle the associate duties.

Of course there are some advantages. The biggest is that you are not going into debt (or at least as much debt). Second, as perverse as it may sound, having a job takes your mind off of law school from time to time which is good for your mental health. As others have said, far better than me, law school itself is not particularly challenging or stressful. It is the forced curve, the need to excel rather than simply to pass that makes it so hard. My undergrad and graduate degrees are in engineering. That material is difficult and you understand why certain people do fail these types of courses. It is very difficult to fail a law school class because there is nothing very difficult about the core concepts. The difficulty lies in the nuances. The other big difficulty is making sure your exam accurately reflects what you know. That is why so many people, myself included, recommend taking practice exams. There may be people out there who can do extremely well without taking practice exams, I am certainly not one of them. Overall, I think practice exams are one of the best ways of learning any material, but particularly for learning to take law exams.

[Scarletlady]

The most important tip I can give is to know yourself, bank your vacation time, and stay healthy.

Everyone has a different method of studying, I learned quickly what did/didn't work for me in my first semester. I don't flashcard, brief cases, write extensive outlines, work with a study group, or take full lungth practice tests. I do take copious class/reading notes that I review weekly, I read practice tests and do issue spotting, I use supplements to supplement, and when I don't understand something I go straight to my professor. In PT, time is precious and you have to use it the best way for yourself. I study at home to save time on the commute to and distractions in the library.

If you are not already working for the company you will be during the school year, then check out their leave policies. I use 2-3 vacation days a semester for finals or in the lead up to a major paper. Thanksgiving break is for studying, and you will be grateful for the 3-4 days. Spring Break is for studying, I used my usual "class time" for study time.

Stay healthy, I cannot stress this enough. I workout either in the morning or on my lunch break. If I am not running, I'm on the elliptical and I am reading my notes or listening to lecture on my ipod. Working out cuts down on my stress and to me it is worth the time I put in. I precook lunch and dinner for the week on Sundays and try to stay away from processed foods and sugar which can cause you to crash. When I feel tired, I let myself sleep in. I do about 90% my reading on the weekends so I can unwind after class and get to bed early.

[CurbYourEnthusiasm]

Giddy and xyzbca, anyway you can share how you were able to juggle work and school to be able to place towards the top of the class? I'm thinking about going PT, and would love to get your insight on your study habits, when you did your work, etc.

I would echo a lot of what xyzbca said. Largely, it is about time management. I really enjoyed the "law school legend" series and "sum and substance". Both are audio supplements. Generally, an entire course is covered in 5 hours. They have a pretty wide selection and cover most of the standard courses, particularly the statute specific courses (commercial paper, secured transactions, bankruptcy etc.) On school days I had about 2.5 hours of commute time (45 min into work, 45 min into school, and about 60 min home from school), on non-school days I had 1.5 hours of commute time. I listened to the cds every single day. It got to the point where you had the entire course memorized, almost without trying, just because you heard it over and over again. This helped immensely, particularly because after the first week I had heard the entire course at least once.

Granted, this is probably a bit more risky with some of the policy heavy classes. I tended to stay away from those anyway. For a course like Secured Transactions, the content of the course is not going to differ significantly by professor.

On the weekends, I tried to keep up with the readings. Another thing that worked really well for me was to take almost no notes. I found that I absorbed the material a lot better if I did not have to concentrate on making notes. As others have pointed out, you can usually get an outline from someone else who took the class or from an outline bank.

There are a number of drawbacks to part time: (1) There is much less time for socialization, particularly if you have a family and do not live near the school. With the exception of a handful of people, I did not get to know my classmates that well. (2) Finding a job may be more difficult, particularly if you intend to participate in OCI. However, there are a number of people in the evening program that are currently working for the company that they plan to work with after finishing their law degrees, myself included. If you work for one of these companies, things are certainly better. You do not even have to worry about the stress of OCI. (3) It is difficult to participate in extracurricular activities. The only activity I did was Law Review, and I only did it to put it on my resume. There is no way I could have handled the work of one of the more senior positions, I could barely handle the associate duties.

Of course there are some advantages. The biggest is that you are not going into debt (or at least as much debt). Second, as perverse as it may sound, having a job takes your mind off of law school from time to time which is good for your mental health. As others have said, far better than me, law school itself is not particularly challenging or stressful. It is the forced curve, the need to excel rather than simply to pass that makes it so hard. My undergrad and graduate degrees are in engineering. That material is difficult and you understand why certain people do fail these types of courses. It is very difficult to fail a law school class because there is nothing very difficult about the core concepts. The difficulty lies in the nuances. The other big difficulty is making sure your exam accurately reflects what you know. That is why so many people, myself included, recommend taking practice exams. There may be people out there who can do extremely well without taking practice exams, I am certainly not one of them. Overall, I think practice exams are one of the best ways of learning any material, but particularly for learning to take law exams.

Awesome post. Thanks for the insight. Anyway you can elaborate on the bolded part; why is it more difficult to secure a job through OCI? If you have the grades, it's still considered difficult?

[Giddy-Up]

I re-read my post, and I was not entirely clear. As far as I know, you will not face any disadvantage simply because of your status as a part-time student. Rather, the logistics of OCI are more difficult if you have a full time job. I was speaking mainly of going to multiple interviews, call backs etc. You would burn through a lot of your vacation days pretty fast, even for a series of screening interviews. Granted, if your work is close to the school it may be easier to slip in the interviews.

What I meant to discuss more fully is that it is more difficult (but not impossible) to participate in other job-hunt related activities like internships, working for a judge during the semester, clinical opportunites etc, since most of these activities occur during the work day.

[rdcws000]

The question in this thread confuses me, but it is very possible that this is because I have a flaw in my understanding of rankings. I would be happy to be corrected.

<I'm a PT student just finishing 1st year>

As I understand it, students are graded and curved by section. PT students at my school (1st year) are all together in a section. Naturally, 10% of PT students will be in the top 10%, and then ranked against the class including FT students, but since each section was graded on the same curve, the PT students will fall in their respective place in the class ranking without any direct interaction or grade competition from FT students.

Also, at least at my school, the vast, vast majority of PT students are working FT, otherwise, why would they be going PT? There are a few exceptions, but I would guess maybe only 5 out of my first year section of 83.

So, my confusion is, why would it be any harder for a PT student working full time to get top 10% than any other?

Also, in response to this:

What I meant to discuss more fully is that it is more difficult (but not impossible) to participate in other job-hunt related activities like internships, working for a judge during the semester, clinical opportunites etc, since most of these activities occur during the work day.

This is a question I have been wrestling with. The answers I normally get are that my options are 1) save up vacation and take it during summer internships, 2) take a leave of absence 3) get legal or quasi legal experience from my current employer.

These are all difficult options, and I am still looking for that magical option where I can get a super legal internship and maintain employment with my current company until I graduate. Does anyone have any others?

[xyzbca]

So, my confusion is, why would it be any harder for a PT student working full time to get top 10% than any other?

Class ranks don't stop after first year. At my school, most non-1L classes have a mix of PT and FT students. As a second year evening student I looked up one evening and recognized seventeen law review members in my evidence class (mostly FT students, professor was very popular). The curve was brutal in that class....

[rdcws000]

So, my confusion is, why would it be any harder for a PT student working full time to get top 10% than any other?

Class ranks don't stop after first year. At my school, most non-1L classes have a mix of PT and FT students. As a second year evening student I looked up one evening and recognized seventeen law review members in my evidence class (mostly FT students, professor was very popular). The curve was brutal in that class....

I get all this. I guess you are saying that competing against FT students has the potential to work against a PT student. I can understand this, although I think the disparity between FT and PT students within a school is often overestimated.

Our school also has many FT students in night classes after 1L, but I think they are still predominantly PT.

[howell]

So, my confusion is, why would it be any harder for a PT student working full time to get top 10% than any other?

At our school, FT students comprised about 1/3 of our evening classes, so there was direct competition. Also, curves were supposed to have fairly standardized means, but the actual grade distribution had no limits. So a professor could give out 20 A's or none (this is only slightly more extreme than what we actually faced). FYL if you're in the wrong section.

PT students were about 30% of the entire class at our school, but 4 of the top 10 after 1L were PT students, and some of those had very demanding jobs and children.

[Wholigan]

So, my confusion is, why would it be any harder for a PT student working full time to get top 10% than any other?

At our school, FT students comprised about 1/3 of our evening classes, so there was direct competition. Also, curves were supposed to have fairly standardized means, but the actual grade distribution had no limits. So a professor could give out 20 A's or none (this is only slightly more extreme than what we actually faced). FYL if you're in the wrong section.

PT students were about 30% of the entire class at our school, but 4 of the top 10 after 1L were PT students, and some of those had very demanding jobs and children.

Same at my school. Some evening 1L sections were about 1/3 PT students and 2/3 FT students. Some PT students work full time, some are full-time parents, and some don't work at all. Even some of the FT students had part-time jobs a couple of days a week. My gut feeling is that the work status mattered very little in determining grade performance.

[rdcws000]

My gut feeling is that the work status mattered very little in determining grade performance.

Yeah, I didn't communicate it very well, but I think this was my point.

[clbig]

Thanks for the info! I'm excited about starting even though I know how much work it will be. My biggest plan is not to have a lot of debt. I should have a job when I graduate - at least I'm hoping the firm will still be there.

[MrAnon]

It generally comes down to how smart you are, not how hard you work. I known of people in part time programs to finish in the top of the class, but they had backgrounds in subjects like nuclear physics. You wont be able to grind out top 10%. Hard to know if anyone can.

[Fordham2014Evening]

I just finished 1L in May in the top 10% while working FT. It's possible. Now that I'm thinking about it, I think most of my classmates who professed satisfaction with their grades were working.