Is the LLM looked down upon? Forum

[Canadian]

I am considering coming to the U.S. to do a JD, however, I always thought that if I didn't do that I could come later in life to do an LLM. I have a friend currently in law school who advised strongly against ever doing an LLM. He told me that the LLM program is generally regarded as a "cash grab" for "foreign" students that "couldn't cut it in the JD program". He told me that people in his JD program tend to look down on LLM students. Whereas the JD is seen as a professional degree, the LLM is seen as a bit of a scam.

Before you accuse my friend of being a jerk, let me just be clear that he was trying to warn me of a general perception; he wasn't personally hating on LLMs. However, I was surprised to hear him say this. Do others think this is the case, or do you have a different perception?

[voice of reason]

I think your friend may be over-stating the case. An LLM from Harvard never hurt anybody's reputation.

[macattaq]

It also depends on what you want to do. If you want to go into academia, getting an LLM* will help compensate (but not mitigate) not going to HYSCCN. It marks you out as an expert in the legal theory of a certain area, although not a practical expert (think the difference between a practicing attorney and a law professor). However, if you just want to have it to get a job, or to gain general knowledge, it could make you overqualified for areas outside of tax or IP. It is probably best to figure out what you want to do with a law degree, then figure out if you want/need an LLM. Also, you should consider that getting into an LLM program almost certainly requires you to have earned a JD or equivalent.

edit*: from a highly respected school.

[XxSpyKEx]

He told me that the LLM program is generally regarded as a "cash grab" for "foreign" students that "couldn't cut it in the JD program".

A international LLM student at my school told me that is exactly what an LLM is (except being a "cash grab" part because a lot of the LLM students get tuition waivers). BUT for international students an LLM can make sense (assuming you want to return to your home country). From what I gathered, in her home country she already spent 5 years studying law (something about law school isn't a graduate program, and they just spend 5 years to graduate from UG and then can practice law). But by coming here for 1 year and taking a measly 24 credits it opens up doors to global firms like Skadden, DLA, etc (at the offices in her home country). She said at one point in time it was possible for LLMs to remain in the country and find work at larger firms, but not so much anymore.

LLMs at schools like Yale or Harvard also make sense if you are interested in academia. Sometimes you'll see professors with LLMs from top schools (HYSCC) after completing a JD from a TTT (probably to cover up the stench of the TTT degree).

[Renzo]

An LLM makes perfect sense for someone with an LLB, and since there's no such thing in the US anymore, it only makes sense for foreign students*. For that demographic, an LLM in not anymore of a cash grab than law school in general, it's just what you need to do to practice.

BUT-- if you have a JD, a top school LLM is not going to hide your TTT JD. Employers know it's much easier to get into the LLM programs, and they are not going to be fooled.


*(setting aside Tax LLMs in a few select circumstance)

[imchuckbass58]

My understanding is there are essentially two good reasons to get an LLM.

-You are a foreign practitioner who is moving to your firm's US office and need a crash course in american law without going through a 3-year JD program.

-You want to do tax.

While you can certainly do tax without an LLM, my understanding is it's one of the few areas where there's really a lot of added value (both in terms of knowledge and recognition) in doing an LLM at a good school.

[Danneskjöld]

A lot of misinformation in this thread. None of the foreign LLMs I know who thought they could come here and get an LLM and end up with a US job have one. None. Look at firm websites and check out how many LLMs there are. The number is almost none. Look at NALP and see how many firms even accept applications or recruit LLMs, the answer is most do not. Look at how many professors at law schools have them, I've never met any. LLMs are a waste of time and money. Most of the people who get them end up going back to their home countries because there are not many US jobs for them. Law is all about pedigree, which translates to top grades from a top school, employers simply have no way of comparing LLMs against JDs and so they don't even try. On that note, most LLMs are not even on the same curve as JDs are, and at some schools LLMs aren't curved at all (employers know this too).

Outside of a tax LLM from NYU, GULC, etc., with an otherwise valuable JD in addition, LLMs are worthless.

[Danneskjöld]

LLMs at schools like Yale or Harvard also make sense if you are interested in academia. Sometimes you'll see professors with LLMs from top schools (HYSCC) after completing a JD from a TTT (probably to cover up the stench of the TTT degree).

I call BS. Please link to one faculty profile for a professor with a TTT JD + HYSCC LLM. Legal academia is the most competitive field in law. You have YHS JDs who can only get prof jobs at TTTs, and you're telling me a TTT JD + LLM is good enough? Bananas.

[Renzo]

A lot of misinformation in this thread. None of the foreign LLMs I know who thought they could come here and get an LLM and end up with a US job have one. None. Look at firm websites and check out how many LLMs there are. The number is almost none. Look at NALP and see how many firms even accept applications or recruit LLMs, the answer is most do not. Look at how many professors at law schools have them, I've never met any. LLMs are a waste of time and money. Most of the people who get them end up going back to their home countries because there are not many US jobs for them. Law is all about pedigree, which translates to top grades from a top school, employers simply have no way of comparing LLMs against JDs and so they don't even try. On that note, most LLMs are not even on the same curve as JDs are, and at some schools LLMs aren't curved at all (employers know this too).

Outside of a tax LLM from NYU, GULC, etc., with an otherwise valuable JD in addition, LLMs are worthless.

This is what I was saying, I just wasn't being as negative. I have met foreign LLMs who got jobs in the US, but they all (100%) came from the UK and from good schools where they did well in LLB programs (keeping the prestige/pedigree commonality alive).

[XxSpyKEx]

A lot of misinformation in this thread. None of the foreign LLMs I know who thought they could come here and get an LLM and end up with a US job have one. None. Look at firm websites and check out how many LLMs there are. The number is almost none. Look at NALP and see how many firms even accept applications or recruit LLMs, the answer is most do not. Look at how many professors at law schools have them, I've never met any. LLMs are a waste of time and money. Most of the people who get them end up going back to their home countries because there are not many US jobs for them. Law is all about pedigree, which translates to top grades from a top school, employers simply have no way of comparing LLMs against JDs and so they don't even try. On that note, most LLMs are not even on the same curve as JDs are, and at some schools LLMs aren't curved at all (employers know this too).

This pretty much what I said in my post (except about the no curve part, which is correct).

LLMs at schools like Yale or Harvard also make sense if you are interested in academia. Sometimes you'll see professors with LLMs from top schools (HYSCC) after completing a JD from a TTT (probably to cover up the stench of the TTT degree).

I call BS. Please link to one faculty profile for a professor with a TTT JD + HYSCC LLM. Legal academia is the most competitive field in law. You have YHS JDs who can only get prof jobs at TTTs, and you're telling me a TTT JD + LLM is good enough? Bananas.

I never said anything about teaching at a top school with a TTT JD + HYSCC LLM. However, a TTT JD + HYSCC LLM might be sufficient to break into academia and teach at a TTT. I actually had a prof at my TTT last year who did his JD at a tier 4, then did some project with YLS, then got accepted into YLS, and then managed to get a job lecturing my class (and this guy was way underqualified to be teaching anything. I think the only reason he was hired was because of that YLS LLM). Additionally, there were a few other profs at my t3 last year that had TTT JDs + HYSCC LLMs and were teaching there.

I'm not going to post a link to any profs from my old school, but just look around at faculty profiles at t3s and t4s, and you'll find one's that attended low ranking schools for their JD and a top law school LLM.

[Bankhead]

LLMs at schools like Yale or Harvard also make sense if you are interested in academia. Sometimes you'll see professors with LLMs from top schools (HYSCC) after completing a JD from a TTT (probably to cover up the stench of the TTT degree).

I call BS. Please link to one faculty profile for a professor with a TTT JD + HYSCC LLM. Legal academia is the most competitive field in law. You have YHS JDs who can only get prof jobs at TTTs, and you're telling me a TTT JD + LLM is good enough? Bananas.

http://info.law.indiana.edu/sb/page/normal/1410.html

pwned

[Danteshek]

LLMs at schools like Yale or Harvard also make sense if you are interested in academia. Sometimes you'll see professors with LLMs from top schools (HYSCC) after completing a JD from a TTT (probably to cover up the stench of the TTT degree).

I call BS. Please link to one faculty profile for a professor with a TTT JD + HYSCC LLM. Legal academia is the most competitive field in law. You have YHS JDs who can only get prof jobs at TTTs, and you're telling me a TTT JD + LLM is good enough? Bananas.

My contracts professor - Danielle Kie Hart - has a JD from Hawaii and LLM from Harvard. She's a phenomenal teacher.

[Oban]

In a lot of the TTT viewbooks i've received in the mail, many feature professors with JD from that or similiar rank school plus Georgetown/Harvard/Yale LLMs

Anyway, If you are a foreign student a LLM is required to sit for the bar in America.

If you are a domestic student, the LLM in Tax is the only real program and really only from

1. NYU
2. GT
3. U of Florida

There are other LLMs in international law, labor law, etc. These are really only for fun, as they won't help you get a job. They do seem to help somepeople get into academia as i noted above.

[Lawl Shcool]

kind of off topic but relates to the academia discussion, I am at a t4 and all of my profs so far have been from a top 10 school JD and none have LLMs. A few have other graduate degrees from Ivy League schools as well.

[XxSpyKEx]

LLMs at schools like Yale or Harvard also make sense if you are interested in academia. Sometimes you'll see professors with LLMs from top schools (HYSCC) after completing a JD from a TTT (probably to cover up the stench of the TTT degree).

I call BS. Please link to one faculty profile for a professor with a TTT JD + HYSCC LLM. Legal academia is the most competitive field in law. You have YHS JDs who can only get prof jobs at TTTs, and you're telling me a TTT JD + LLM is good enough? Bananas.

http://info.law.indiana.edu/sb/page/normal/1410.html

pwned