deletd Forum

[star fox]

Law was already elitist.

But TLS does sort of fuck over 0Ls by creating an arms race of application quality and LSAT scores.

In the overall scheme of law school applications, TLS doesn't make a blip.

Besides, medians have fallen greatly because of less people applying. TLS is something that would contribute to that so it balances out.

[UnicornHunter]

Law was already elitist.

But TLS does sort of fuck over 0Ls by creating an arms race of application quality and LSAT scores.

In the overall scheme of law school applications, TLS doesn't make a blip.

Besides, medians have fallen greatly because of less people applying. TLS is something that would contribute to that so it balances out.

Maybe in the overall scheme it doesn't make a blip, but I think it has a big impact on the pool of people with a shot at a t-14. The only two law students I've met who weren't aware of TLS before starting went to TTTs. Not everyone buys what TLS is selling, but most people at least take the 4 minutes on Google it takes to find this site before taking a 3 year plunge.

Plus side is that using TLS inflates the LSAT scores of less naturally smart people and thus makes the curve a little easier once you're in.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Johann, people are absolutely aware of PAYE and PSLF when they advise people here. They just disagree with you about the relevance of those things to giving law school advice. I'm doing both those things (actually IBR, even worse) but I would never give your average "I don't know how to get a job" biglaw-chasing applicant advice to go to law school because those things exist.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I also actually think it can be useful to have someone who has graduated and is practicing who has experience at a TTT, because I agree that there are assumptions floating around here about lower-ranked schools that aren't always accurate (not about their employment stats, obviously, but just the experience of going regional). Beyond that, Johann can participate in the marketplace of ideas along with everyone else. He's at least talking based in his own experience, rather than spouting as an 0L (you know I love you, 0Ls).

[star fox]

Law was already elitist.

But TLS does sort of fuck over 0Ls by creating an arms race of application quality and LSAT scores.

In the overall scheme of law school applications, TLS doesn't make a blip.

Besides, medians have fallen greatly because of less people applying. TLS is something that would contribute to that so it balances out.

Maybe in the overall scheme it doesn't make a blip, but I think it has a big impact on the pool of people with a shot at a t-14. The only two law students I've met who weren't aware of TLS before starting went to TTTs. Not everyone buys what TLS is selling, but most people at least take the 4 minutes on Google it takes to find this site before taking a 3 year plunge.

Plus side is that using TLS inflates the LSAT scores of less naturally smart people and thus makes the curve a little easier once you're in.

People being aware of TLS doesn't mean there's been an arms race caused by too many people with high LSAT scores though.

[UnicornHunter]

Law was already elitist.

But TLS does sort of fuck over 0Ls by creating an arms race of application quality and LSAT scores.

In the overall scheme of law school applications, TLS doesn't make a blip.

Besides, medians have fallen greatly because of less people applying. TLS is something that would contribute to that so it balances out.

Maybe in the overall scheme it doesn't make a blip, but I think it has a big impact on the pool of people with a shot at a t-14. The only two law students I've met who weren't aware of TLS before starting went to TTTs. Not everyone buys what TLS is selling, but most people at least take the 4 minutes on Google it takes to find this site before taking a 3 year plunge.

Plus side is that using TLS inflates the LSAT scores of less naturally smart people and thus makes the curve a little easier once you're in.

People being aware of TLS doesn't mean there's been an arms race caused by too many people with high LSAT scores though.

Fair. Would be interesting if one of our numbers guys analyzed the data looking for correlations. Would expect to see a higher percentage of retakes and high LSATs if TLS was making a difference.

[thesealocust]

TLS blossomed right around the same time that the recession hit, most schools started accepting highest LSAT instead of averaging, etc. - it'd be pretty hard to control for all of the variables.

[Elston Gunn]

As always, Johann takes his lovable schtick too far, but he makes some good points. PAYE is maybe, kind of a gamechanger, but then maybe it's not because should you go to law school if you don't even know if it'll exist when you graduate? It's all very confusing. TLS erring on the pessimistic side is on the whole a very good thing, though

[sah]

I think Johann has a point, too. Look TLS has been very useful for me and is a godsend when it comes to stuff like learning about the law school scholarship game and constructing your OCI bidlist. But there are some things about it that irk me, like:

-The threads where everyone is posting about how X school has changed their admissions status on the status tracker from UR1 to UR2, or the threads where everyone is posting about when firms are calling people back or if firms are giving pre-OCI offers. These literally serve no purpose other than to turn applicants and law students into bundles of anxiety. If the firm is going to call you back, you'll know. If the school is going to accept you, you'll find out. Those threads just make everyone crazy.

-This doesn't irk me so much as amuse me, but I think people are a bit too optimistic about how a person with a 145 diagnostic LSAT can just study for that 170, bro. I'm sure it happens but I think most people who score in the mid 170s had 160s or at least very high-150s diagnostics. I know I did. There's an element of it that tests basic logical reasoning skills that you can't game in five months of study.

-TLS leans very negative in general. Overall I think that's a good thing (someone needs to break it to the special snowflakes), but you know, while the vast majority of people aren't getting feeder clerkships, of all the people who might have a shot at them it's probably the HYS admit, CCN $$$ people. It's fine to recommend that people take the money, but people do realize they're asking these folks to voluntarily limit their ambitions and goals, right?

-Also, I agree with Johann - there's not enough focus on pre-LS position. Leaving your job at McKinsey to go to law school is very different from leaving your dead-end, 35k a year admin gig. And YES, there are MANY T-14 admits in the latter position...

[Good Guy Gaud]

Missed entire thread. tl;dr

Just came to say TLS is legitAF. Convinced me to retake, which got me mad scholly $$$ at better schools. Gave me good advice for doing well in school. Etc.

[Elston Gunn]

-This doesn't irk me so much as amuse me, but I think people are a bit too optimistic about how a person with a 145 diagnostic LSAT can just study for that 170, bro. I'm sure it happens but I think most people who score in the mid 170s had 160s or at least very high-150s diagnostics. I know I did. There's an element of it that tests basic logical reasoning skills that you can't game in five months of study.

I honestly think most people who recommend study until you can get a 170 in these cases are secretly hoping that the person will eventually just choose to not go to law school. Which is...I don't know maybe a little duplicitous, but for a good cause.

[Desert Fox]

[Orlandipo]

-This doesn't irk me so much as amuse me, but I think people are a bit too optimistic about how a person with a 145 diagnostic LSAT can just study for that 170, bro. I'm sure it happens but I think most people who score in the mid 170s had 160s or at least very high-150s diagnostics. I know I did. There's an element of it that tests basic logical reasoning skills that you can't game in five months of study.

I honestly think most people who recommend study until you can get a 170 in these cases are secretly hoping that the person will eventually just choose to not go to law school. Which is...I don't know maybe a little duplicitous, but for a good cause.

This has always seemed a little funny to me, now that I'm on the other side of this who law school experience. I get that this advise is solely focused on law school admissions, but when you get to 3L year and realize that like maybe one or two of your 30 classes even came close to pushing the limits of your intelligence, and then you graduate and realize that what 90% of what lawyers do requires basically average intelligence, then idea of suggesting you need to hit 170 or find another profession is kinda comical.

[Johann]

This has always seemed a little funny to me, now that I'm on the other side of this who law school experience. I get that this advise is solely focused on law school admissions, but when you get to 3L year and realize that like maybe one or two of your 30 classes even came close to pushing the limits of your intelligence, and then you graduate and realize that what 90% of what lawyers do requires basically average intelligence, then idea of suggesting you need to hit 170 or find another profession is kinda comical.

yeah exactly. I mean sure study and use all your attempts. but there is no sense delaying life if you hit 162 162 162. you're a 162 test taker and if you want to take the risk to go to law school, someone on TLS should just say yeah its a risk here's the LST scores but plenty of people with 162s made literally millions more from a legal career than they would outside of law.

[sam91]

I think top hyphen law hyphen schools helped me in a unique way in that it scares all of the TLS gunners away from TTTs.
I did not read much of TLS until after I started (prob why I attended w/ a stipulation scholarship). The guides, test taking strategies, and general advice have been invaluable so far. and lead to a #2 rank.

My Answer: Top-Law-Schools.com is good, not bad.

[Elston Gunn]

top-law-schools.com bad
top-law-schools.com/forums good

[gnomgnomuch]

We've all used this site, it has a distinct culture, as do some law schools and the profession. Are the nature, tenor, and content of our discussions actually harmful to individuals effectively evaluating whether law school is right for them, and whether we're doing enough to advance the legal profession and increase access to justice?

Why are we so elitist and narrow-minded about what the best way to achieve success in law school and in a legal career?

I don't think we're actually elitist. We don't judge someone negatively for choosing a regional school if they're going on a nice scholarship and know what the likely outcome from that school is... but we sure as hell will judge someone who has a 3.9 GPA and a 156 LSAT but refuses to study for it and then asks us where to go. But again, we're judging, and HELPING. I've read plenty of posts where someone was encouraged to retake the LSAT, killed it, and ended up going to a much better school on a nice scholarship.

However, the profession itself IS prestige biased. Is that right or wrong, idk, but it's the way it is, and I understand it. If you're billing 300 dollars an hour something, you don't want a kid from CUNY law, but one from Harvard. If you DO take the kid from CUNY law, well, he sure as hell better be good.

[Hikikomorist]

Law was already elitist.

But TLS does sort of fuck over 0Ls by creating an arms race of application quality and LSAT scores.

In the overall scheme of law school applications, TLS doesn't make a blip.

Besides, medians have fallen greatly because of less people applying. TLS is something that would contribute to that so it balances out.

I don't really think it's a blip. I bet 40% land here at least a little bit

When it came up in discussion at one of the ASPs I attended (not a T-14), about half of the people were familiar with the site and had at least browsed it a little.

[Ron Howard]

It's definitely a good thing having a collection of knowledge. However, certain knowledge bases are better than others, and you should always take a grain of salt for people understanding your specific situation.

I'm sure there are definitely some decent LSAT study guides and law school success guides, though I haven't really read them so can't attest.

The interview thread by itbdvorm is probably the best thread on this site. And the loan financing thread is pretty solid with lots of healthy debate.

The main areas where TLS knowledge is lacking:
1) Failure to consider PAYE and PSLF when advising people about law school. A risk benefit analysis without those factors is worthless.
2) Everyone talks about TTTs on here without really understanding them or knowing what the employment is actually like and the type of people that attend those schools. Citing LST is fine, but to pretend to know what kind of chance a TTT gives you to become a lawyer (lotso f people self select out of firm jobs and even legal jobs completely and prefer to work for big corporations as an office monkey etc), how competitive they are to get good grades, the reality of the transfer market completely changing in the last 6 years, etc.
3) When people start should I go to law school threads, nobody actually considers what that person's alternative option. Some people with money to CCN should not go to CCN. Some people should pay sticker to Loyola. If you can't imagine scenarios where this happens, you probably shouldn't be giving life altering advice to someone. Whether or not law school is a good option depends on the person's background, degree, future career without the degree, etc.
4) People on this board are really really risk averse and use their risk aversion to paint things in the black and white, when really everything is gray. Law degrees can be used for lots of different things within the law industry (solo, biglaw, ticket to government, take over family business) and outside the industry (JD advantage is a very real thing now and this board doesn't really understand that there are JD advantage jobs paying more than AmLaw 500 jobs in non major markets - and hell even in major markets very rarely, but much more common in the smaller markets).
5) People on this board are very short sighted in evaluating a lifetime investment. I graduated years ago and I still think it's too early for me to evaluate whether law school and the degree was worth it for me and my peers. I'm sure plenty of people called their coworkers idiots in 1990 for buying Apple stock with their retirement accounts. Even in 2000, 10 years later the stock was still looking very average. There is really no way to know how this all will play out depending on the governments and regulations that come to be, loan forgiveness programs, etc)

Overall, TLS is very bad, even to the point of detriment, at advising specific individuals whether law school is right for them based on their personal circumstances, especially when it comes to non-traditional applicants. Most of the people on this board that give advice still haven't even graduated law school, so LOL at them really knowing anything more than LST (save some areas mentioned above like scholly negotiation and lsat prep).

JohannDeMann, today is your lucky day, for I, Ron Howard, have elected to do you a great courtesy: I shall review your post.

(1) This is a good point, Johann. But I think PAYE and PLSF are especially difficult to consider because they are shrouded in great uncertainly. One can scarce be certain that they will be around in ten, five, or even three years from now. Still, it may be useful for us to collectively consider incorporating this information into relevant posts. Good work!
(2) Again I like the point, and the problem here is a bit of different beast then the last. Most of the major advice givers on this site generally do not attend what you refer to as a TTT. They have (intentionally or not) followed TLS advice and attend––or will soon be attending--T14 schools, or their cousins, the strong regions. For this reason it is difficult, it not impossible, for most posters to comment effectively on the so-called TTT schools.
(3) Great point; no other comments.
(4) Although I do agree that posters on this site are risk-adverse, often to an extreme level, I think that the line between discussing what else one can do with a law degree and why one should go to law school is a fine one. We do not want to delude 0Ls into thinking that if their big law "dream" doesn't work out, they can easily get a cool job in business. It is simply a public policy consideration that we should firmly establish the idea that law school is only for becoming a lawyer. It might be useful, however, to discuss this on the employment forum, so I am glad you brought it up.
(5) I like your point, but there is, of course, an unfortunate flip side to this. What if, because of advances in technology, the need for lawyers is greatly decreased in the future? What if the tax code is simplified? The problem is thus, if we consider that the value of a law degree should be evaluated over one's entire career, we must then consider the possible decline as well as the possible improvement of the industry over the long term. Because this is so difficult, we may be wise to minimize risk by encouraging students to minimize debt and maximize the quality of the school that they attend. In other words, we maximize outcomes in the temporal zone in which we have the best view--the near term. Though perhaps offensive to some, this way of thinking is, to me, simply prudent.

[thesealocust]

When it came up in discussion at one of the ASPs I attended (not a T-14), about half of the people were familiar with the site and had at least browsed it a little.

The true gunners will never admit to knowing what TLS is IRL. I sat in several conversations my 1L year with a blank look on my face while other people discussed TLS, despite being the mega-est of mega posters.

[Johann]

Fair points Ronnie

[Ron Howard]

Fair points Ronnie

Thank you, Johann. I liked your points in this thread too, especially the one about the subjectivity of attending any given school. Man The law student is the measure of all things.

[03152016]

actually this isn't pointless, apparently people are taking you seriously

where did you come up with the $300k figure

why are you literally making up numbers to convince people to go to law school

[03152016]

lol wait are you talking about the statistic that includes ALL law firm partners, regardless of experience, including biglaw partners

[Ron Howard]

actually this isn't pointless, apparently people are taking you seriously

where did you come up with the $300k figure

why are you literally making up numbers to convince people to go to law school

I am by no means a JohannDeMann apologist, but I do question if he was really, "literally making up numbers to convince people to go to law school". I am also, to be honest, not sure that his words are being digested with any sort of seriousness by the our audience. If I am wrong, however, then good hunting.