Considering dropping out of law school Forum

[keg411]

It's not about OP not necessarily doing research... it's that he/she continually has the same idea (hey, now I want to get an IT MBA since I don't like law school!). It seems to me like he/she just wants an excuse to stay in school rather than get a job and went to law school as that kind of "safety net". I just think OP should consider going out into the "real world" for a little while for some perspective. Work and grow up. Law school/business school, etc. will still be there in 5 years.

Also, I had recently talked to a couple people at my school who expressed similar opinions, so it's not like OP is unique in that way. Also just "thinking out loud because of exam stress" is different than "I really don't want to be a lawyer but I have no clue what else to do with my life". The "exam stress" person should stay. The "no clue" person should drop out.

[gobias]

1. The underlying reason for my original post was not exam stress. Sure, law school is tough, but I’m willing to put myself through it if I know there’s a good chance it will pay off in the end. That was true in the past, but I don’t know if it’s true anymore. Being a law student in 2010 is radically different from being a law student in, say, 2000. The return on investment calculation has changed dramatically. I just wanted to check with people who know a lot more than I do to see how risky sticking out the next three years would be. Given that I’m 21k in debt from first semester, is it still a wise economic decision to drop out?

2. I know that if you want to suceed at anything, you may have to sacrifice work-life balance. That makes perfect sense. However, from what I understand, private practice is an exercise in the permanent sacrifice of work-life balance. Late nights at the office every week or two is very different from working 12 hours every day. I'm not really sure if "being a lawyer is not for everyone" applies to me, but if it means routinely working 60-70 hours a week, I think it does.

3. There is no way I would make the same mistake again. If I drop out, I will absolutely do my due diligence before taking out more loans for a graduate program.

[beach_terror]

I think your username is pretty on point considering the nature of this thread, gobias.

[gobias]

I think your username is pretty on point considering the nature of this thread, gobias.

Thanks.

[Snooker]

I’m 23 and currently a 1L at a T1 law school. Not T14, but respectable. I’m strongly considering withdrawing before the second semester. Why?

1. Work-life balance. This has nothing to do with the stress of law school. It has everything to do with what comes after law school. After talking to practicing attorneys and doing more research, I’m realizing that it’s next to impossible to make good money in private practice and have a healthy work-life balance. I don’t want to work 60-80 hours a week until I’m 40. The psychological and physical costs of this lifestyle are real and don't typically fit well alongside goals of having a happy life outside the office. This is not only true for biglaw, but for many midsize and small firms as well.

I know in-house counsel is an option, but competition for these jobs is keen. I don't want to base my career choice on such a big assumption.

I know public service is an option, but I don't want to be locked into a public service career for 10 years just to satisfy Public Service Loan Forgiveness to pay off my student loans. Especially if I'm not sure I'll enjoy the work. Also, plenty of other career options are out there that pay just as well, except you're not required to be chained to them for a decade.

2. Job satisfaction. I’ve found that a scary number of lawyers would not go to law school if they had to do it all over again. And these are attorneys who graduated decades ago and were able to pay off their small student loans quickly. Which brings me to...

3. Debt. This year, I’m paying out-of-state tuition. After I graduate, I will be in $150k of debt because of high tuition and the interest accrued while in school. This includes fairly generous financial aid. This is a big deal. If I were only going to be in $50k of debt, I would be much more likely to stick around.

4. Job prospects. The job market is oversaturated with attorneys. The supply of lawyers far outstrips the demand. There is no reason to expect this situation to improve anytime soon, as more students than ever have been applying to law school over the last few years to avoid the bad economy.

I did not weigh these considerations as much as I should have before deciding to come to law school. I think that was a big mistake.

What would I do instead? I’m considering getting an MBA with a concentration in Information Systems from my state school. I want to choose a career based on my interests, passions and skills. I think this might be it. It would be very cheap compared to law school. Plus, the Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that jobs in this sector will be second only to health care in terms of growth over the next decade.

Thoughts?

1. There's more options out there than standard 160k biglaw. I have seen corporate/transactional boutiques starting at around 90k-100k, and midlaw firms starting at 120k, along with some "lifestyle big" firms starting around 135-140k, where people work 50 or so hours a week and take weekends off. They are not prestigious as big firms, though. My experience is that if you are in a room of the top 10% of the class, they are going to talk biglaw and big prestige all of the time and 100% of them will be super optimistic about the job they will take. 4-5 years later, 90% of them are very dissatisfied with the choice and go for in-house, which may not necessarily be any better.

These jobs are overlooked because they're not prestigious and they are really hard to get. I told a friend, top 5% of the class, who has an idea of where I rank, of a firm I was interviewing with that pays 120k but is relaxed, and he chided it as being "low on the totem pole".

Law opportunities are great. The people reaching for them are often idiots, though.

2. I think law is great and always have. many do not really like it. If you are choosing law as a last resort, a life of misery may await you.

3. Debt? This is a bit late for you, but others should go to a school with a scholarship and network your ass off. You have two choices in the law. Go to a school at sticker for the chance -- just a chance, we're talking like 50% at Cornell -- that you will land in biglaw. Or go to a lower ranked school with scholarship for a smaller chance you will get into biglaw but a better chance you will have a happy offer somewhere else.

4. There is said to be oversupply, but remember that the market is saturated with shitlaw schools like Texas Weslayan, People's College of Law, Tuoro etc. If you are in the fourth tear, you are at the saturation point. But if you go to a top 20 school and have a good GPA, employers will readily pick you over the bottom tier schools.

[General Tso]

Generally sound advice Snooker, but OP is attending a lower T1. Unless his grades are great, he won't approach anything near the 120k job or the various kinds of legal work you describe. He'll most likely be working in a small firm or outside the legal sector.

OP - you may have said this already, but what is your UG degree and what kind of prospects do you think you'd face with just your BA? I have an Econ degree, and I've sometimes wondered if it wouldn't make more financial sense to drop out with 30k debt and make ~50-55k with my Econ degree vs. sticking with the JD program and getting a 55-70k job with 60k debt.

[bostonian]

1. The underlying reason for my original post was not exam stress. Sure, law school is tough, but I’m willing to put myself through it if I know there’s a good chance it will pay off in the end. That was true in the past, but I don’t know if it’s true anymore. Being a law student in 2010 is radically different from being a law student in, say, 2000. The return on investment calculation has changed dramatically. I just wanted to check with people who know a lot more than I do to see how risky sticking out the next three years would be. Given that I’m 21k in debt from first semester, is it still a wise economic decision to drop out?

2. I know that if you want to suceed at anything, you may have to sacrifice work-life balance. That makes perfect sense. However, from what I understand, private practice is an exercise in the permanent sacrifice of work-life balance. Late nights at the office every week or two is very different from working 12 hours every day. I'm not really sure if "being a lawyer is not for everyone" applies to me, but if it means routinely working 60-70 hours a week, I think it does.

3. There is no way I would make the same mistake again. If I drop out, I will absolutely do my due diligence before taking out more loans for a graduate program.

1. Becoming a lawyer just for the money is certainly a risky proposition. You can't assume you're going to get a biglaw job. Although as I said before, at the very least wait until you see how you do on finals this semester, since if you do well, you'll have a good shot at one of those jobs. You should either want to be a lawyer or have some goal that a law degree will help you accomplish. As for the debt from one semester/one year, it's better to drop out earlier than graduate and wish you had (21k/42k in debt is better than 126k).

2. Large firm jobs have a shitty work-life balance. That said, plenty of lawyers don't work for large firms. If your financial concerns are based on a desire to have a high-paying job, then that's the kind of job you'll need. On the other hand, if you're just worried about the debt, then remember that your required payments are adjusted based on your salary, so you won't be forced to live on ramen noodles for 30 years. Alternatively, if you do manage to land a biglaw job, you can have a sucky life for a few years, pay a big chunk of your loans, then move to a smaller firm/public interest/government/anything else that's more enjoyable.

3. Good. If you do drop out, definitely work for a little while and figure out what you want to do before starting any other grad program.

Honestly, your interests should play a substantial role in your decision: if you like the law and actually want to be a lawyer (or work in field where a law degree would legitimately be useful), even if it might mean not making $150k+/yr, then it may be worth staying in. If not, then it probably isn't.
For me, almost no amount of money would be enough to get me to take a career that I would hate.

[drdolittle]

I have an Econ degree, and I've sometimes wondered if it wouldn't make more financial sense to drop out with 30k debt and make ~50-55k with my Econ degree vs. sticking with the JD program and getting a 55-70k job with 60k debt.

Do you really think you could make that much now with an Econ bachelor's? I'm not so sure, but if so, then taking that route would seem to make sense at the moment. Or maybe take a leave of absence and come back to law school if the job market recovers...

[Aqualibrium]

My response and attitude would be completely different if the OP had had some kind of revelation about something that can only be discovered after starting law school. But not only is everything listed readily discoverable well before school, it's not exactly hidden information. In fact, it's very well publicized information. Before spending tens of thousands of dollars, or in some cases well over a hundred thousand, you should probably do at least the barest hint of research. Which, if the OP had done at all, he would have found out in very short order.

Therefore, I really can't muster any sympathy at all for him.

Aren't you spending thousands of dollars going to school in Texas with absolutely no intention of working in Texas or in the Southwest?

[General Tso]

I have an Econ degree, and I've sometimes wondered if it wouldn't make more financial sense to drop out with 30k debt and make ~50-55k with my Econ degree vs. sticking with the JD program and getting a 55-70k job with 60k debt.

Do you really think you could make that much now with an Econ bachelor's? I'm not so sure, but if so, then taking that route would seem to make sense at the moment. Or maybe take a leave of absence and come back to law school if the job market recovers...

I am not sure actually. I have a couple years' experience in the financial sector, but I was only earning 40k in a secondary market in the South. I didn't actually enjoy it all that much...I was mostly an Excel monkey. I find the legal field much more interesting but unfortunately the job market is extremely weak compared to financial services.

I thought about a leave of absence at the end of this semester, but for now, I figure I will stick it out with law school. I only face 60k debt, which is a blessing in this environment. If my legal career doesn't take off within a couple of years, I'll get a certificate in finance through the UCLA or Berkeley extensions and give financial services a 2nd try.

Plus Hastings keeps giving me more grant money, which always makes me feel better even if it is only an extra $1,000.

[Snooker]

"Primary" market for econ majors being what, NYC or LA or some expensive city like that with high COL? You can still make 80k in a "secondary" market with a law degree. Personally I think whether one takes the econ route or the law route should come down to whether you enjoy the career. In economics, one might analyze how best to deploy factory equipment such as to maximize financial gains, but don't take this perspective on your own life. Do what's best for yourself, not the bottom line.

[kalvano]

My response and attitude would be completely different if the OP had had some kind of revelation about something that can only be discovered after starting law school. But not only is everything listed readily discoverable well before school, it's not exactly hidden information. In fact, it's very well publicized information. Before spending tens of thousands of dollars, or in some cases well over a hundred thousand, you should probably do at least the barest hint of research. Which, if the OP had done at all, he would have found out in very short order.

Therefore, I really can't muster any sympathy at all for him.

Aren't you spending thousands of dollars going to school in Texas with absolutely no intention of working in Texas or in the Southwest?

With the hope of getting good enough grades to go somewhere else and the knowledge that it probably won't happen.

I'm also not posting about potentially dropping out because I might be stuck in Texas.

[screwsandboalts]

okay, a lot of the posts on this thread have been unnecessarily rude and useless. if you're not going to post some sort of meaningful advice, then don't post at all.

and if you are one of the people on here criticizing the OP, then you better be able to say that ever since starting law school, you haven't had SOME doubts that you are doing the right thing. and frankly, if you do say that, then you are a liar.

so stop making OP feel bad just so you can walk away from your computer feeling like the man, because you're putting others down while hiding behind your laptop. awesome.

anyway- persuant to the OP, i think this might help -- i have become friends with current/past law school students from all walks of life this year - 1Ls, 2Ls, 3Ls, professors, interviewers - and my uncle is partner at a huge firm. Every SINGLE one of them has expressed to me that law school is a ROLLERCOASTER of ups and downs, of feeling great one day and feeling flooded with self-doubt the next. the uncertainty about your future, especially during 1L, can be scary - even to those at the top of their class at HYS. this doesn't mean that you should give up this early into it - stick it out, at least until the end of the year, and then re-evaluate.

i also think there is a lot to be said about your 1L summer. many people have told me that while their 1L sucked, they finally got a chance to know what it was like to be a practicing attorney while working over the summer, and that's what reaffirmed their belief that they were truly 'doing the right thing' by staying in law school. so many people lose sight of the fact that law school is nothing like practicing in the real world: its a means to and end - it is NOT the end.

however, if after that, you are still unhappy, then i say get out. nothing in life is worth doing for 3 years + a career if it makes you unhappy. you create your future, and only you know what will make you feel fulfilled.

it should be noted in your decision process, however, that the economy SUCKS right now, and not just for the legal profession. if you take a look around you, everyone is taking hits - not just lawyers or those of us coming out of law school. also, almost EVERY job worth doing is started "at the bottom." What I mean is, talk to anyone you know that has a successful career, one which they are happy having. more likely than not, they started at the bottom of the food chain, working insane hours, etc. Its not just lawyers that work their asses off to get to a place where they want to be.

Good luck, and ignore the other posters on here who think they are hot shit because they can type a few sarcastic words. THEY are the people who will end up truly unhappy in whatever they are doing - if only because everyone at their jobs will end up hating them.

[ResolutePear]

okay, a lot of the posts on this thread have been unnecessarily rude and useless. if you're not going to post some sort of meaningful advice, then don't post at all.

and if you are one of the people on here criticizing the OP, then you better be able to say that ever since starting law school, you haven't had SOME doubts that you are doing the right thing. and frankly, if you do say that, then you are a liar.
so stop making OP feel bad just so you can walk away from your computer feeling like the man, because you're putting others down while hiding behind your laptopcomputer. awesome.

anyway- persuant to the OP, i think this might help -- i have become friends with current/past law school students from all walks of life this year - 1Ls, 2Ls, 3Ls, professors, interviewers - and my uncle is partner at a huge firm. Every SINGLE one of them has expressed to me that law school is a ROLLERCOASTER of ups and downs, of feeling great one day and feeling flooded with self-doubt the next. the uncertainty about your future, especially during 1L, can be scary - even to those at the top of their class at HYS.this doesn't mean that you should give up this early into it - stick it out, at least until the end of the year, and then re-evaluate.

i also think there is a lot to be said about your 1L summer. many people have told me that while their 1L sucked, they finally got a chance to know what it was like to be a practicing attorney while working over the summer, and that's what reaffirmed their belief that they were truly 'doing the right thing' by staying in law school. so many people lose sight of the fact that law school is nothing like practicing in the real world: its a means to and end - it is NOT the end.

however, if after that, you are still unhappy, then i say get out. nothing in life is worth doing for 3 years + a career if it makes you unhappy. you create your future, and only you know what will make you feel fulfilled.
it should be noted in your decision process, however, that the economy SUCKS right now, and not just for the legal profession. if you take a look around you, everyone is taking hits - not just lawyers or those of us coming out of law school. also, almost EVERY job worth doing is started "at the bottom." What I mean is, talk to anyone you know that has a successful career, one which they are happy having. more likely than not, they started at the bottom of the food chain, working insane hours, etc. Its not just lawyers that work their asses off to get to a place where they want to be.

Good luck, and ignore the other posters on here who think they are hot shit because they can type a few sarcastic words.THEY are the people who will end up truly unhappy in whatever they are doing - if only because everyone at their jobs will end up hating them.

Wait, wait.. so at first to stick it out - then you're telling him to get out?

What is it?

[beach_terror]

le on here criticizing the OP, then you better be able to say that ever since starting law school, you haven't had SOME doubts that you are doing the right thing. and frankly, if you do say that, then you are a liar.

so stop making OP feel bad just so you can walk away from your computer feeling like the man, because you're putting others down while hiding behind your laptop. awesome.

Good luck, and ignore the other posters on here who think they are hot shit because they can type a few sarcastic words. THEY are the people who will end up truly unhappy in whatever they are doing - if only because everyone at their jobs will end up hating them.

--ImageRemoved--

[scribblehead]

OP, if you drop out you'll have the last laugh on these tools. Why on Earth would anyone with a chance to bail out now stay in this industry? Go and read ATL and Temporary Attorney and JDUnderground and get a taste of how horrific and miserable this sewer of an industry truly is.

Every single lawyer I know utterly DESPISES their job and wishes they had dropped out of law school. Every single one!

Aside from Biglaw, the salaries are embarassingly low (well south of 40 K for most entry-level gigs), the work is repetitive, mindless, and dull, the people you deal with are mostly pathetic geeks (as only the most pathetic of human beings actually stick with law as a career), and so on.

Besides that, most of the non-partner level makework paper churning has been outsourced to India. The party is over, kids. More of you should grow a set like OP and bail on this devilish farce of an industry before it's too late.

You're starting well "below the bottom" in law since you're paying these jackals 45 K a year for the toilet paper called a JD. The legal market isn't just in a recession, it is fundamentally changed and probably will never return to the 2001-2006 levels again. With the amount of wanrings out there it's amazing law schools aren't deserted. Of course, everyone here thinks they're "special" and that the laws of supply & demand somehow don't apply to them,

[reasonable_man]

OP, if you drop out you'll have the last laugh on these tools. Why on Earth would anyone with a chance to bail out now stay in this industry? Go and read ATL and Temporary Attorney and JDUnderground and get a taste of how horrific and miserable this sewer of an industry truly is.

Every single lawyer I know utterly DESPISES their job and wishes they had dropped out of law school. Every single one!

Aside from Biglaw, the salaries are embarassingly low (well south of 40 K for most entry-level gigs), the work is repetitive, mindless, and dull, the people you deal with are mostly pathetic geeks (as only the most pathetic of human beings actually stick with law as a career), and so on.

Besides that, most of the non-partner level makework paper churning has been outsourced to India. The party is over, kids. More of you should grow a set like OP and bail on this devilish farce of an industry before it's too late.

You're starting well "below the bottom" in law since you're paying these jackals 45 K a year for the toilet paper called a JD. The legal market isn't just in a recession, it is fundamentally changed and probably will never return to the 2001-2006 levels again. With the amount of wanrings out there it's amazing law schools aren't deserted. Of course, everyone here thinks they're "special" and that the laws of supply & demand somehow don't apply to them,

Scott? Is that you?

[ResolutePear]

OP, if you drop out you'll have the last laugh on these tools. Why on Earth would anyone with a chance to bail out now stay in this industry? Go and read ATL and Temporary Attorney and JDUnderground and get a taste of how horrific and miserable this sewer of an industry truly is.

Every single lawyer I know utterly DESPISES their job and wishes they had dropped out of law school. Every single one!

Aside from Biglaw, the salaries are embarassingly low (well south of 40 K for most entry-level gigs), the work is repetitive, mindless, and dull, the people you deal with are mostly pathetic geeks (as only the most pathetic of human beings actually stick with law as a career), and so on.

Besides that, most of the non-partner level makework paper churning has been outsourced to India. The party is over, kids. More of you should grow a set like OP and bail on this devilish farce of an industry before it's too late.

You're starting well "below the bottom" in law since you're paying these jackals 45 K a year for the toilet paper called a JD. The legal market isn't just in a recession, it is fundamentally changed and probably will never return to the 2001-2006 levels again. With the amount of wanrings out there it's amazing law schools aren't deserted. Of course, everyone here thinks they're "special" and that the laws of supply & demand somehow don't apply to them,

It's true!

I hired a ticket court defense attorney and when he came to court...

IT WAS AN INDIAN!

His name was "Peggy" and didn't understand English.

[scribblehead]

BTW OP there is no such thing as a "respectable" non Top 14.

Hell, my buddy is on doc review in DC right now and about 50 kids there are GULC grads clicking away for $30 an hour and no health insurance.

Only the truly delusional still think there's anything worthwhile in this absolute gutter of an industry.

[ResolutePear]

BTW OP there is no such thing as a "respectable" non Top 14.

Hell, my buddy is on doc review in DC right now and about 50 kids there are GULC grads clicking away for $30 an hour and no health insurance.

Only the truly delusional still think there's anything worthwhile in this absolute gutter of an industry.

...Then why are you here?

I think there's golden vagina waiting for me.

[beach_terror]

.

[Melkaba]

BTW OP there is no such thing as a "respectable" non Top 14.

Hell, my buddy is on doc review in DC right now and about 50 kids there are GULC grads clicking away for $30 an hour and no health insurance.

Only the truly delusional still think there's anything worthwhile in this absolute gutter of an industry.

Call me crazy, naive, or just have ridiculously low standards, but when considering that I grew up in a single parent household with a parent who still could make a comfortable lifestyle making sub $30k, $40-60k would be quite a step-up in my world even with under-grad + LS debt probably nearing a total of 80k. At least this way, even the bad industry will still satisfy my purposes here.

[ResolutePear]

BTW OP there is no such thing as a "respectable" non Top 14.

Hell, my buddy is on doc review in DC right now and about 50 kids there are GULC grads clicking away for $30 an hour and no health insurance.

Only the truly delusional still think there's anything worthwhile in this absolute gutter of an industry.

Call me crazy, naive, or just have ridiculously low standards, but when considering that I grew up in a single parent household with a parent who still could make a comfortable lifestyle making sub $30k, $40-60k would be quite a step-up in my world even with under-grad + LS debt probably nearing a total of 80k. At least this way, even the bad industry will still satisfy my purposes here.

If you're not interested in hitting 6-figured:
Accounting.

Though, you have to realize that low paying jobs aren't the problem. It's trying to find a job.

[vanwinkle]

Though, you have to realize that low paying jobs aren't the problem. It's trying to find a job.

Two words: Blue collar.

This sounds insane to someone with a college degree who wants the cushy life they were promised. But if you're willing to start at the bottom, these jobs often start out full-time with benefits, and the degree can help you get promoted in a short period of time. Often employers will post supervisor positions requiring a two-year or four-year degree, but waiving the degree requirement for years of experience if no qualified applicants apply. Being in there with a college degree lets you jump the line over the "qualified" guys. Yeah, some of them will resent you for it, but people resent success no matter where you go or what you do.

You can work your way up to a $50-60K desk-job position within a couple years this way. I did it, before I quit to go to law school. The biggest problem actually is convincing them they should hire you with a college degree, since they might think you're just riding out the economy there. But if you do your homework and can point to a supervisor/management position you'd like to work your way up toward, that can be enough.

[ResolutePear]

Though, you have to realize that low paying jobs aren't the problem. It's trying to find a job.

Two words: Blue collar.

This sounds insane to someone with a college degree who wants the cushy life they were promised. But if you're willing to start at the bottom, these jobs often start out full-time with benefits, and the degree can help you get promoted in a short period of time. Often employers will post supervisor positions requiring a two-year or four-year degree, but waiving the degree requirement for years of experience if no qualified applicants apply. Being in there with a college degree lets you jump the line over the "qualified" guys. Yeah, some of them will resent you for it, but people resent success no matter where you go or what you do.

You can work your way up to a $50-60K desk-job position within a couple years this way. I did it, before I quit to go to law school. The biggest problem actually is convincing them they should hire you with a college degree, since they might think you're just riding out the economy there. But if you do your homework and can point to a supervisor/management position you'd like to work your way up toward, that can be enough.

As somebody who did exactly that, I couldn't agree more.

The problem with that is making sure you get a job in a field that provides for upward mobility. But, let's face it - if you can't recognize that.. you wouldn't recognize when a good job hit you in the ass anyways.