Paying back loans with BigLaw salary- how long? Forum

[270910]

So if $280k is too much for Columbia, how about $210k (i.e., sticker)?

The OP already has $80K in undergraduate student debt. $210K, being 25% less, is 25% less frightening to me. It's still pretty frightening, but somehow not quite so much. $280K just sounds astronomical. Loan payments on $210K would be about $10K/year less than payments on $280K...thus $10K/year more to live on if need be.

Is the increased earning potential coming out of Columbia worth $10k/yr? Hint: YES IT IS

You are giving terrible, terrible advice.

I don't think the advice is so terrible. It really comes down to tolerance for risk.

Just using the #'s from earlier in this thread:

@ CLS he has a 54% chance at NLJ250 with the downside being that he'll be in a really, really bad spot if he doesn't make it.

@ Vandy he has a 47% chance at NLJ250 with the downside being not nearly as horrendous if he doesn't make it.

Assuming he takes on an additional $15K/year in debt coming out of Vandy, he's basically looking at a 46% chance of being stuck with $280K against a 53% chance of being stuck with ~$130K in debt.

It basically comes down to tolerance for risk.

*edit for missing word

This is amusingly and catastrophically wrong. Among the reasons are: 1) The downturn (which is almost totally unaccounted for in that data because of how out of date it is) has hit lower ranked schools harder. 2) The NLJ 250 number is a great way to look at market paying firm jobs, but CLS students will have both opportunities to be more picky about their giant law firm and opportunities outside of giant law firms that are unavailable to Vanderbilt students. 3) The relevant statistic is percent of the summer class that gets a big firm job 2L summer, which was damn near 100% of those who wanted it from CLS in the boom times - an incredible statistic.

You may still have a point and it could be debated, but pointing to the class of 2009 NLJ figures and using them to make an equivalences argument between vanderbilt and CLS is just a really poor idea for the reasons discussed above.

[dominkay]

So if $280k is too much for Columbia, how about $210k (i.e., sticker)?

The OP already has $80K in undergraduate student debt. $210K, being 25% less, is 25% less frightening to me. It's still pretty frightening, but somehow not quite so much. $280K just sounds astronomical. Loan payments on $210K would be about $10K/year less than payments on $280K...thus $10K/year more to live on if need be.

Is the increased earning potential coming out of Columbia worth $10k/yr? Hint: YES IT IS

You are giving terrible, terrible advice.

I don't think the advice is so terrible. It really comes down to tolerance for risk.

Just using the #'s from earlier in this thread:

@ CLS he has a 54% chance at NLJ250 with the downside being that he'll be in a really, really bad spot if he doesn't make it.

@ Vandy he has a 47% chance at NLJ250 with the downside being not nearly as horrendous if he doesn't make it.

Assuming he takes on an additional $15K/year in debt coming out of Vandy, he's basically looking at a 46% chance of being stuck with $280K against a 53% chance of being stuck with ~$130K in debt.

It basically comes down to tolerance for risk.

*edit for missing word

You know that not all NLJ250 firms pay the same salary, right? And someone who goes to CLS is much more likely to get a gig that pays $160k than someone who goes to Vandy. Just looks at WHERE in the NLJ250 those schools place.

I am a woman, and I am moderately risk averse, and I see CLS as a much less risky option in the long term.

[Renzo]

There is so much dumb in this thread I hardly know where to start. So I'll be breif, and hope someone else will join in.

1A) 54% shot at NLJ 250 from CLS is crazy low. Last year, the worst year hiring in a decade or longer, more than 70% of EIW participants got an offer job.

1B) 47% shot at a market-paying gig from Vandy isn't crazy, but is an overestimate

2A) Salaries DO NOT usually run something like: 160 160 160 50 60 75 90 100 100. 160k is a starting salary for biglaw associates, not a ceiling. And no one is leaving biglaw to work for 50K, unless by choice (going into politics, small public interest, solo practice, etc). If you want to assume that you're going to be forced out of a big firm (and you're right to assume that), the current income trend would (conservatively) be more like 160, 175, 210, 235, 75, 80, 90, 110, 110 etc. (and could be substantially higher if you leave for an in-house or midlaw practice)

2B) Re 2A, if you can't pay your loan off, or at least pay it down to a modest, manageable balance in five years of the above salary schedule, you are a spendthrift who cannot manage their money. $70k in NYC doesn't go very far, but I could (do, and have) support my family modestly but comfortably on less.

Edit: just stole this from another thread as an illustration:

Shearman & Sterling (V25 NYC firm) Salary Structure:

1st year: $160,000
2nd year: $170,000
3rd year: $185,000
4th year: $210,000
5th year: $230,000
6th year: $250,000
7th year: $265,000
8th year: $280,000

[swc65]

I owe about $70K from an Ivy League undergrad. I will be attending Columbia in the fall where the total COL is $70K per year. By the time I graduate I will owe $280K in federal loans (slightly less if I land a 2L summer gig). Let's say I'm lucky enough to land a BigLaw job in NYC and live very moderately and within my means. How long would it take to pay off these loans when taking taxes and interest into consideration?

I've looked at loan calculators but don't know what to plug in for certain tax variables so I'm looking for an estimate. About how much money per month and for how long? And when I say living moderately I truly mean it. I'd live in a small place and hopefully pay about $1100-1500 per month in rent in NYC.

Dude don't worry about it. Borrow tons of students loans and buy gold or something. The coming hyperinflation will wipe our your debt and you'll be rich when gold skyrockets!

Not really, there might be some good things in this thread to look at. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0&start=25

[xyzbca]

Just using the #'s from earlier in this thread:

This is amusingly and catastrophically wrong. Among the reasons are: 1) The downturn (which is almost totally unaccounted for in that data because of how out of date it is) has hit lower ranked schools harder. 2) The NLJ 250 number is a great way to look at market paying firm jobs, but CLS students will have both opportunities to be more picky about their giant law firm and opportunities outside of giant law firms that are unavailable to Vanderbilt students. 3) The relevant statistic is percent of the summer class that gets a big firm job 2L summer, which was damn near 100% of those who wanted it from CLS in the boom times - an incredible statistic.

You may still have a point and it could be debated, but pointing to the class of 2009 NLJ figures and using them to make an equivalences argument between vanderbilt and CLS is just a really poor idea for the reasons discussed above.

Please note the rather clear qualifier I used to start off my post. I've isolated it so that you don't miss it a second time.

1. I agree that the 2009 data is out of date, hence my qualification of "just using the #'s from earlier in this thread."

2. I agree that a CLS student will have a better range of options. Thank you for that information. Somehow I managed to miss where the OP or anybody else in this thread asked about "better selection of firms" or something similar to that. I thought this thread was about paying off loans on a Biglaw salary and had morphed into a conversation about relative debt loads are various schools? If other variables are included in this conversation CLS will pull away from just about any other law school but I didn't see the OP or anybody else ask about those other variables.

[270910]

Just using the #'s from earlier in this thread:

This is amusingly and catastrophically wrong. Among the reasons are: 1) The downturn (which is almost totally unaccounted for in that data because of how out of date it is) has hit lower ranked schools harder. 2) The NLJ 250 number is a great way to look at market paying firm jobs, but CLS students will have both opportunities to be more picky about their giant law firm and opportunities outside of giant law firms that are unavailable to Vanderbilt students. 3) The relevant statistic is percent of the summer class that gets a big firm job 2L summer, which was damn near 100% of those who wanted it from CLS in the boom times - an incredible statistic.

You may still have a point and it could be debated, but pointing to the class of 2009 NLJ figures and using them to make an equivalences argument between vanderbilt and CLS is just a really poor idea for the reasons discussed above.

Please note the rather clear qualifier I used to start off my post. I've isolated it so that you don't miss it a second time.

1. I agree that the 2009 data is out of date, hence my qualification of "just using the #'s from earlier in this thread."

2. I agree that a CLS student will have a better range of options. Thank you for that information. Somehow I managed to miss where the OP or anybody else in this thread asked about "better selection of firms" or something similar to that. I thought this thread was about paying off loans on a Biglaw salary and had morphed into a conversation about relative debt loads are various schools? If other variables are included in this conversation CLS will pull away from just about any other law school but I didn't see the OP or anybody else ask about those other variables.

You're still missing the point. The total pool of students from CLS who had the opportunity if they so chose to make the law school debt obliterating 6-figure salary is substantially larger than the statistics you quoted would suggest. The statistics you quoted fail to account for several extremely important things which I attempt to point out, and which this discussion would have been quite incomplete without.

I could write a lengthy post about how CLS and Vandy are similar schools based on some employment statistics I found on a napkin that shows Vandy students get 200K starting salaries 95% of the time, but it wouldn't be very productive even if I posted a disclaimer that my career advice may have been based on numbers scrawled onto a burrito wrapper during a Salvia trip.

[xyzbca]

You know that not all NLJ250 firms pay the same salary, right? And someone who goes to CLS is much more likely to get a gig that pays $160k than someone who goes to Vandy. Just looks at WHERE in the NLJ250 those schools place.

I am a woman, and I am moderately risk averse, and I see CLS as a much less risky option in the long term.

Yes, I do realize that. Too complicated though to work out through all the variables. For example:

NYC = $160K - ~12% state and city income taxes = $140,800 *
Dallas/Houston/Austin = $145K - no state income tax = $145K

*Note his tax liability in NYC is more nuanced than this but you get the general picture.

I'm not sure what you being a woman has to do with this, but my view of risk is rather simple. I don't make bets I can't afford to be wrong about. I have no problem gambling and taking risks, I just don't take on risks where I'm going to be absolutely pissed off for a long time if I turn out to be wrong. $280K in debt and no Biglaw salary would leave me pretty pissed off at MYSELF for a long time.

As I said earlier, it basically comes down to tolerance for risk. I personally won't make a bet that I can't afford to lose.

[xyzbca]

You're still missing the point. The total pool of students from CLS who had the opportunity if they so chose to make the law school debt obliterating 6-figure salary is substantially larger than the statistics you quoted would suggest. The statistics you quoted fail to account for several extremely important things which I attempt to point out, and which this discussion would have been quite incomplete without.

I could write a lengthy post about how CLS and Vandy are similar schools based on some employment statistics I found on a napkin that shows Vandy students get 200K starting salaries 95% of the time, but it wouldn't be very productive even if I posted a disclaimer that my career advice may have been based on numbers scrawled onto a burrito wrapper during a Salvia trip.

I get exactly what you're saying: If a CLS student wants Biglaw what is the probability that a CLS student will get Biglaw? We can both agree that it is less than a 100%, right?

We can also agree the probability of a VLS student that wants Biglaw actually getting Biglaw is less than a 100% (and less than the CLS odds).

We can also agree that we don't know *exactly* what that probability is for either school and we probably won't find any reliable sources that will provide that information. If you can point to any kind of a credible source that will provide better information which can better the analysis here, I'll gladly defer to your source.

All I'm saying here is that you and I live in a world with imperfect information and eventually you have to go with the information you have and move forward from there. If your burrito wrapper is the best available information, then you make a decision and move forward.

I agree that ideally we would know exactly what percentage of students from CLS and VLS that want Biglaw actually get Biglaw.

[Renzo]

You're still missing the point. The total pool of students from CLS who had the opportunity if they so chose to make the law school debt obliterating 6-figure salary is substantially larger than the statistics you quoted would suggest. The statistics you quoted fail to account for several extremely important things which I attempt to point out, and which this discussion would have been quite incomplete without.

I could write a lengthy post about how CLS and Vandy are similar schools based on some employment statistics I found on a napkin that shows Vandy students get 200K starting salaries 95% of the time, but it wouldn't be very productive even if I posted a disclaimer that my career advice may have been based on numbers scrawled onto a burrito wrapper during a Salvia trip.

I get exactly what you're saying: If a CLS student wants Biglaw what is the probability that a CLS student will get Biglaw? We can both agree that it is less than a 100%, right?

We can also agree the probability of a VLS student that wants Biglaw actually getting Biglaw is less than a 100% (and less than the CLS odds).

We can also agree that we don't know *exactly* what that probability is for either school and we probably won't find any reliable sources that will provide that information. If you can point to any kind of a credible source that will provide better information which can better the analysis here, I'll gladly defer to your source.

All I'm saying here is that you and I live in a world with imperfect information and eventually you have to go with the information you have and move forward from there.

I agree that ideally we would know exactly what percentage of students from CLS and VLS that want Biglaw actually get Biglaw.

The problem is you are treating employment as a binary question. Allow me to illustrate:

3 Vandy Students and 3 CLS students apply for a biglaw gig; it goes to a CLS Student, so the other five go next door to a midlaw firm and apply. That job goes to another CLS student. Now they all go the the Gov't and apply for a job...

See where I'm going with this? So who made the better investment?

[dominkay]

You know that not all NLJ250 firms pay the same salary, right? And someone who goes to CLS is much more likely to get a gig that pays $160k than someone who goes to Vandy. Just looks at WHERE in the NLJ250 those schools place.

I am a woman, and I am moderately risk averse, and I see CLS as a much less risky option in the long term.

Yes, I do realize that. Too complicated though to work out through all the variables. For example:

NYC = $160K - ~12% state and city income taxes = $140,800 *
Dallas/Houston/Austin = $145K - no state income tax = $145K

*Note his tax liability in NYC is more nuanced than this but you get the general picture.

I'm not sure what you being a woman has to do with this, but my view of risk is rather simple. I don't make bets I can't afford to be wrong about. I have no problem gambling and taking risks, I just don't take on risks where I'm going to be absolutely pissed off for a long time if I turn out to be wrong. $280K in debt and no Biglaw salary would leave me pretty pissed off at MYSELF for a long time.

As I said earlier, it basically comes down to tolerance for risk. I personally won't make a bet that I can't afford to lose.

There are NLJ250 firms that don't even pay SIX FIGURES. I bet there are more Vandy grads there than Columbia grads.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=80439

In 2008, CLS placed 70.5% of its grads in NLJ250 firms. Vandy placed 44.6%. You think there's a negligible amount of difference there? What are you smoking?

[270910]

You know that not all NLJ250 firms pay the same salary, right? And someone who goes to CLS is much more likely to get a gig that pays $160k than someone who goes to Vandy. Just looks at WHERE in the NLJ250 those schools place.

I am a woman, and I am moderately risk averse, and I see CLS as a much less risky option in the long term.

Yes, I do realize that. Too complicated though to work out through all the variables. For example:

NYC = $160K - ~12% state and city income taxes = $140,800 *
Dallas/Houston/Austin = $145K - no state income tax = $145K

*Note his tax liability in NYC is more nuanced than this but you get the general picture.

I'm not sure what you being a woman has to do with this, but my view of risk is rather simple. I don't make bets I can't afford to be wrong about. I have no problem gambling and taking risks, I just don't take on risks where I'm going to be absolutely pissed off for a long time if I turn out to be wrong. $280K in debt and no Biglaw salary would leave me pretty pissed off at MYSELF for a long time.

As I said earlier, it basically comes down to tolerance for risk. I personally won't make a bet that I can't afford to lose.

There are NLJ250 firms that don't even pay SIX FIGURES. I bet there are more Vandy grads there than Columbia grads.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=80439

In 2008, CLS placed 70.5% of its grads in NLJ250 firms. Vandy placed 44.6%. You think there's a negligible amount of difference there? What are you smoking?

Mother fucker I hate this NLJ question. Asked and answered.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=80439

85%+ of the lawyers at NLJ firms work in law firms that have 6 figure + starting salaries, and many of the other 15% pay either A) almost 6-figures or B) did not report salary data. The NLJ 250 stat really is a perfectly acceptable proxy for big law and big pay checks.

[dominkay]

You know that not all NLJ250 firms pay the same salary, right? And someone who goes to CLS is much more likely to get a gig that pays $160k than someone who goes to Vandy. Just looks at WHERE in the NLJ250 those schools place.

I am a woman, and I am moderately risk averse, and I see CLS as a much less risky option in the long term.

Yes, I do realize that. Too complicated though to work out through all the variables. For example:

NYC = $160K - ~12% state and city income taxes = $140,800 *
Dallas/Houston/Austin = $145K - no state income tax = $145K

*Note his tax liability in NYC is more nuanced than this but you get the general picture.

I'm not sure what you being a woman has to do with this, but my view of risk is rather simple. I don't make bets I can't afford to be wrong about. I have no problem gambling and taking risks, I just don't take on risks where I'm going to be absolutely pissed off for a long time if I turn out to be wrong. $280K in debt and no Biglaw salary would leave me pretty pissed off at MYSELF for a long time.

As I said earlier, it basically comes down to tolerance for risk. I personally won't make a bet that I can't afford to lose.

There are NLJ250 firms that don't even pay SIX FIGURES. I bet there are more Vandy grads there than Columbia grads.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=80439

In 2008, CLS placed 70.5% of its grads in NLJ250 firms. Vandy placed 44.6%. You think there's a negligible amount of difference there? What are you smoking?

Mother fucker I hate this NLJ question. Asked and answered.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=80439

85%+ of the lawyers at NLJ firms work in law firms that have 6 figure + starting salaries, and many of the other 15% pay either A) almost 6-figures or B) did not report salary data. The NLJ 250 stat really is a perfectly acceptable proxy for big law and big pay checks.

You linked to the same thread that I linked?

[270910]

I know you are but what am I.

(I didn't even click on your link - the entire point of that long thread was to dsipell the TLS meme of "lololol some NLJ 250 firms don't even pay market you can't use it as a proxy for big law" - the fact that you cited it for the proposition that "lololol some NLJ 250 firms don't even pay market you can't use it as a proxy for big law" is so absurd that it never even crossed my mind)

[Unemployed]

A lot of shockingly bad advice in this thread, mostly in favor of attending one lower ranked school or another w/ scholarships which OP did not receive; That said, there was one terrible advice in favor of CLS based on a fundamental misunderstanding re: Columbia's LRAP.

LRAP does not wipe out your debt in 3 years. It usually takes 10. If you enter public interest immediately post graduation, but then leave for the private sector in less than 3 years, you owe all or a portion of the LRAP money back to the school. After the three year mark, you can leave without penalty.

0L advice is fine - especially when it comes to 0L decisions - but try not give advice based on patently false premises or less than cursory understanding of the underlying data.

[dominkay]

I know you are but what am I.

(I didn't even click on your link - the entire point of that long thread was to dsipell the TLS meme of "lololol some NLJ 250 firms don't even pay market you can't use it as a proxy for big law" - the fact that you cited it for the proposition that "lololol some NLJ 250 firms don't even pay market you can't use it as a proxy for big law" is so absurd that it never even crossed my mind)

My point wasn't that you can't used it as a proxy for BigLaw. My point was that not all BigLaw is created equal.

And that Columbia is significantly better at getting you there, regardless.

[rundoxierun]

I think OP is MUCH better off going to a lower ranked school with substantial money. 280K in loans is absolute insanity. If I were you, I would withdraw ASAP.

Totally disagree. OP already has 80k in loans. He is already in deep shit. He needs a big money job, period. So, he has to go to the school that will give him the best chance of obtaining one.

This is the absolute dumbest thing I repeatedly see on TLS.. 280k=/=80k.. 280k>>>>>>>>80k. You can pay off 80k making less than 100k/yr. 280k, on the other hand, you probably cannot.

[testmachine45]

"+1

And I'll say this again: on a BigLaw salary, OP can pay off 280k in 4 years, if OP is willing to live on a 40k-a-year budget in NYC. Also, why does everyone assume that you can only pay 10% of your income on the loans?? You can pay as high a percentage as you want!

"


This is completely wrong. 280k in loans in 4 years would require you to pay 80k a year(at 7 percent interest rate annually). After taxes he makes 93. That would mean he has 13k for apartment, food, and other(or 1k a month). Impossible.

[testmachine45]

Also most law school loans are at 8-8.5 percent. The same as a high yield bond.

[rundoxierun]

Also, I pray to god that none of you plan on being tax attorneys..

[go4hls]

"+1

And I'll say this again: on a BigLaw salary, OP can pay off 280k in 4 years, if OP is willing to live on a 40k-a-year budget in NYC. Also, why does everyone assume that you can only pay 10% of your income on the loans?? You can pay as high a percentage as you want!

"


This is completely wrong. 280k in loans in 4 years would require you to pay 80k a year(at 7 percent interest rate annually). After taxes he makes 93. That would mean he has 13k for apartment, food, and other(or 1k a month). Impossible.

OP mentioned an SO. So if they file jointly He will pay 27k in federal taxes (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/ ... 96,00.html). He will pay 9k in SS+Medicare (http://www.moneychimp.com/features/fica.htm), and 17k in NY+NYC taxes (NY = 6.8% and NYC = --LinkRemoved--) . That comes out to 53k in tax.

160k-53k=107k or approximately 110k.

If he was filing as single, then his federal tax would go up to 35k, bringing his total post-tax income to 100k.

Either way (100k or 110k), this is only first year income. The standard NYC pay-scale is still: 160,170,185,210. That's an extra 85k (minus tax, more like 50k) over 4 years that you're not accounting for. I rest my case.

I still maintain that OP can pay off 280k within 4 years of graduation on an NYC BigLaw salary.

**edited to add links**

[legalease9]

"+1

And I'll say this again: on a BigLaw salary, OP can pay off 280k in 4 years, if OP is willing to live on a 40k-a-year budget in NYC. Also, why does everyone assume that you can only pay 10% of your income on the loans?? You can pay as high a percentage as you want!

"


This is completely wrong. 280k in loans in 4 years would require you to pay 80k a year(at 7 percent interest rate annually). After taxes he makes 93. That would mean he has 13k for apartment, food, and other(or 1k a month). Impossible.

OP mentioned an SO. So if they file jointly He will pay 27k in federal taxes (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/ ... 96,00.html). He will pay 9k in SS+Medicare (http://www.moneychimp.com/features/fica.htm), and 17k in NY+NYC taxes (NY = 6.8% and NYC = --LinkRemoved--) . That comes out to 53k in tax.

160k-53k=107k or approximately 110k.

If he was filing as single, then his federal tax would go up to 35k, bringing his total post-tax income to 100k.

Either way (100k or 110k), this is only first year income. The standard NYC pay-scale is still: 160,170,185,210. That's an extra 85k (minus tax, more like 50k) over 4 years that you're not accounting for. I rest my case.

I still maintain that OP can pay off 280k within 4 years of graduation on an NYC BigLaw salary.

**edited to add links**

Yep, People don't seem to understand how little you can live on comfortably. Sure if you live in the hottest neighborhood in the heart of Manhattan you will be in trouble. But if you spend your money wisely, and live in a modest neighborhood, you will be fine, even with all your debt.

Oh, and I'm not usually a prestige whore, BUT... Columbia ftw. Go there. The piss poor employment stats Columbia showed last time are because NYC hit the brunt of the economic crisis because its the epicenter of stocks. It will recover. NYC has been through a lot worse in history (Great Depression) and it is still the richest city around.

By the time you graduate it will be back up to Columbia 70% Vanderbilt 47%. Nothing against Vanderbilt, its a wonderful school. But its not the same thing.

And if any/everything falls apart in your life, IBR the debt. And if you can't pay it in 25 years, it is forgiven. You aren't going to be out on the streets because you went to Columbia. You will be fine. My prediction is that very few non/PI people in your class will have to use IBR anyway.

You are talking about one of the greatest legal schools in the country. It is worth it.

Disclaimer: All of the above is assuming you are going to law school because you want to practice law. If you are just doing it for the money or doing it out of fear of the 80k of debt you already have (aka. just doing it for the money), then withdraw. From everywhere. Life is two short to further indebt yourself for something you don't even want to do.

[270910]

Very credited, legalease9.

[go4hls]

"+1

And I'll say this again: on a BigLaw salary, OP can pay off 280k in 4 years, if OP is willing to live on a 40k-a-year budget in NYC. Also, why does everyone assume that you can only pay 10% of your income on the loans?? You can pay as high a percentage as you want!

"


This is completely wrong. 280k in loans in 4 years would require you to pay 80k a year(at 7 percent interest rate annually). After taxes he makes 93. That would mean he has 13k for apartment, food, and other(or 1k a month). Impossible.

OP mentioned an SO. So if they file jointly He will pay 27k in federal taxes (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/ ... 96,00.html). He will pay 9k in SS+Medicare (http://www.moneychimp.com/features/fica.htm), and 17k in NY+NYC taxes (NY = 6.8% and NYC = --LinkRemoved--) . That comes out to 53k in tax.

160k-53k=107k or approximately 110k.

If he was filing as single, then his federal tax would go up to 35k, bringing his total post-tax income to 100k.

Either way (100k or 110k), this is only first year income. The standard NYC pay-scale is still: 160,170,185,210. That's an extra 85k (minus tax, more like 50k) over 4 years that you're not accounting for. I rest my case.

I still maintain that OP can pay off 280k within 4 years of graduation on an NYC BigLaw salary.

**edited to add links**

Yep, People don't seem to understand how little you can live on comfortably. Sure if you live in the hottest neighborhood in the heart of Manhattan you will be in trouble. But if you spend your money wisely, and live in a modest neighborhood, you will be fine, even with all your debt.

Oh, and I'm not usually a prestige whore, BUT... Columbia ftw. Go there. The piss poor employment stats Columbia showed last time are because NYC hit the brunt of the economic crisis because its the epicenter of stocks. It will recover. NYC has been through a lot worse in history (Great Depression) and it is still the richest city around.

By the time you graduate it will be back up to Columbia 70% Vanderbilt 47%. Nothing against Vanderbilt, its a wonderful school. But its not the same thing.

And if any/everything falls apart in your life, IBR the debt. And if you can't pay it in 25 years, it is forgiven. You aren't going to be out on the streets because you went to Columbia. You will be fine. My prediction is that very few non/PI people in your class will have to use IBR anyway.

You are talking about one of the greatest legal schools in the country. It is worth it.

Disclaimer: All of the above is assuming you are going to law school because you want to practice law. If you are just doing it for the money or doing it out of fear of the 80k of debt you already have (aka. just doing it for the money), then withdraw. From everywhere. Life is two short to further indebt yourself for something you don't even want to do.

TITCR.

[testmachine45]

"+1

And I'll say this again: on a BigLaw salary, OP can pay off 280k in 4 years, if OP is willing to live on a 40k-a-year budget in NYC. Also, why does everyone assume that you can only pay 10% of your income on the loans?? You can pay as high a percentage as you want!

"


This is completely wrong. 280k in loans in 4 years would require you to pay 80k a year(at 7 percent interest rate annually). After taxes he makes 93. That would mean he has 13k for apartment, food, and other(or 1k a month). Impossible.

OP mentioned an SO. So if they file jointly He will pay 27k in federal taxes (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/ ... 96,00.html). He will pay 9k in SS+Medicare (http://www.moneychimp.com/features/fica.htm), and 17k in NY+NYC taxes (NY = 6.8% and NYC = --LinkRemoved--) . That comes out to 53k in tax.

160k-53k=107k or approximately 110k.

If he was filing as single, then his federal tax would go up to 35k, bringing his total post-tax income to 100k.

Either way (100k or 110k), this is only first year income. The standard NYC pay-scale is still: 160,170,185,210. That's an extra 85k (minus tax, more like 50k) over 4 years that you're not accounting for. I rest my case.

I still maintain that OP can pay off 280k within 4 years of graduation on an NYC BigLaw salary.

**edited to add links**

OP makes 100,193 dollars after tax if he is MARRIED...as opposed to 93k if he was SINGLE.

You are, first of al,l arbitrarily using 4 years. 4 years at what interest rate? Do you have one or are you just saying 4 years? Where did this 4 years even come from? It seems ill-conceived.

In my calculations to determine whether your claim of 4 years is possible, I used an actual interest rate - 7 percent, which is very conservative. To pay it off in 4 years, OP would have to be willing to pay 80k/100,193 to student loan repayments. This leaves him with about 20k to live in New York City. 20K/yr in NYC is unreasonable. If his apt was 1k a month(cheap) in NYC, then OP would have 8K left over for food and amenities....or less than 1k a month. This is unreasonable.

If his salary goes up 170, then he will make 105,000 after tax dollars.

If his salary goes up to 185 then he will make 113,000

If his salary goes up to 210 then he will make 125,000.

So, we have one year that is impossible to live on. That year is year 1. OP will die after year 1. So this whole discussion is moot, but for continuity sake and because I am curious.

Year 2, OP has 25,000 to live on in NYC after debt payback and taxes. This is going to be extremely extremely difficult to do. It is borderline impossible because someone at the 25,000 income range does not have the amenities and quality of life able to suceed in biglaw(dry cleaning, proper presentation, cosmetics..apartment not noisy, not filled with cockroaches so work can be done.) If OP does get by Year 2 physically, he will probably get fired.

Year 3, OP now has a whopping 33k to spend on himself after tax and debt.

Year 4, OP now has a whopping 45k to spend.

The problem is that Year 1 is NOT doable. He can not surive after Year 1 so the fact his salry increases is moot. He won't make it after Year 1.

He will be barely getting by at Year 2. And years 3 and 4 will be shitty but doable(I make 40k in NYC when I got out of school).

My loan payback calculations are based on a 7 percent interest rate which is conservative. 8-8.5 percent is more likely.

CONCLUSION: OP CAN NOT pay back loans in four years even by the most conservative estimates because he can not survive Year 1. I rest my case.

[go4hls]

testmachine, I don't know where you're getting the 100k/93k figures from. So far, you have merely asserted them, while I have backed up my figures w/ actual linked sources. The 4 years number was not picked out of thin air, but is the minimum amount of time needed to repay 280k debt w/ a BigLaw salary while still maintaining a 30k-40k annual living expense allowance. Hope that clears things up.

Also, as far as payments. At 8.00% interest on 280k debt. He can pay off the debt in 4 years with 70k, 80k, 85k and 95k paid for years 1-4 respectively.

**edited to add section on loan payment amounts**