Closing Thoughts Forum

[solidsnake]

The problem is that he uses incessant fear-mongering to sell his book (e.g., "It's YOUR life and livelihood on the line, not mine. Where does that analysis take us?"), which readers like me feel is manipulative and dishonest -- the latter trait exacerbated by his lack of candor in disclosing his grades, class rank, and the method by which he obtained law review membership -- all, in this reader's opinion, essential to establishing the credibility and authority necessary to write persuasively on the subject of "getting good" at law school exams.

[prezidentv8]

law school [is] pretty much like college only you kind of have to do the reading, [you generally feel like you have no idea what is expected of you], and everything comes down to a final exam that will be delivered in a somewhat novel format, so make sure to read sample exams and sample answers that did well so you're familiar with the format before you take the test.)

^Fixed to reflect my experience, but pretty much completely agree. It's not as cRaZy of an academic experience as people make it out to be.

[MURPH]

That first year at Harvard must have been good for you. I'll bet they taught you lots of stuff. Now people who disagree with you are stupid, stupid and fucking stupid morons and the rest of us are silly 0Ls thinking silly 0L thoughts. I'll bet you know all about egotistical and condescending don't you, you smart little Harvard boy.

The problem is that he is
(1) stupid,
(2) often wrong,
(3) egotistical,
(4) condescending,
(5) incomprehensible,
(6) untrustworthy,
(7) stupid,
(8) a fucking stupid moron
(9) who silly 0Ls cotton on to
(10) and then get all up in arms
(11) when people like me say he's dumb
(12) - which he is -
(13) to justify their own silly 0L thoughts.

[billyez]

If people disagree with this fellow, that's fine. But it's odd that people who accuse him of being condescending are actually being condescending towards him; just disagree with him and move on. We 0L's might be impressionable and anxious but we aren't stupid. We'll look at what he says and at what his detractors say and make the right choice in regards to who should we listen to. Don't like the thread or what he's spouting? Then don't click on it.

[Thane Messinger]

I had a girlfriend once who would say she was going to break up with me and then stand and wait for me to say "No, no, don't go!" Thane is that girl for TLS.

Seriously, what is the problem here? Thane gave pretty reasonable answers to a couple of posts on a thread that he started. What is with all of the hostility?
A couple of months ago I suggested that he check out TLS because he has written books for law students and young lawyers, he taught in law schools and currently teaches (I think he is still teaching, don't quote me on that) and he is a practicing lawyer. Maybe he is a little heavy on recommending his own books but he is pretty quick to recommend others when the discussion calls for it. His posts maybe a bit longer than most but they are substantive. I am kind of embarrassed that I recommended TLS to him now.
So Mallard, spell it out for me. What is the problem? Why, on a site for law students, are we being rude to a guy who taught law and wrote and published books for law school students? What do we gain by running him off the site?

He comes off as a huge blowhard. He throws up walls of text like it was still the 07 housing boom and he's king of the WoT construction industry. He mystifies law school over and over claiming that it will make you think in ways you never have before and all that other shit that intimidates people and does not accurately describe the experience of many posters here who have attended law school.

The goal is not to run him off the site but to curb his pompous epic poem posts and to fight back against what we believe to be inaccurate information delivered for self-serving purposes (Nobody ever sold a book by claiming that law school was pretty much like college only you kind of have to do the reading and everything comes down to a final exam that will be delivered in a somewhat novel format, so make sure to read sample exams and sample answers that did well so you're familiar with the format before you take the test.)

There are a few somewhat fair critiques here, and while I try not to blow too hard, I must admit it's difficult. I've found this board alternatingly amusing and appalling. But, of course, that's going to read as fairly condescending too. I certainly understand the peer assumptions here, but, sorry, I am not a peer. (I was asked not to include my "author of..." bylines, which I have omitted, and which, presumably, would make the non-peer position more clear. As to the implied--and sometimes not-so-implied--antipathy towards anyone with actual academic or practice experience, well, we're back to the amused shaking-of-head reaction. Just try this with a prof, or a partner.)

While I would prefer to be more gracious, in the end this is take-it-or-leave-it territory. And, believe it or not, I'm not going to pout if you leave it. That's your choice. I don't have to respect you for it, but neither will I be upset. We attorneys point out The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, and leave it to clients to make the ultimate decisions. What is rather offensive is the idea that everyone else is somehow so mentally deficient that they can't make their own decisions. And, yes, I do believe that some of the nonsense on this board and elsewhere is THE reason for why law school is so difficult: it is a manufactured problem. So, no apologies for the fear-mongering. 0Ls ought damned well be nervous, and this board, filled with otherwise decent folk, is an excellent microcosm of why. (And, you'll note, in the original post I present a fairly simple test to new law students for their first week to test whether or not I should be listened to.)

I have to laugh about the "walls of text" line. What do you suppose is going to happen when that wall is dozens upon dozens of cases per week? And the next week, and the next . . . and these cases will make my purposely provocative text seem rather quaint. This is law school we're talking about here, yes? Are you honestly that put off by a few longer-than-email-length posts?

On the other hand, if it makes anyone feel any better, law school is great. Don't worry. Get drunk. Everything will be fine.

Thane.

PS: Law school IS great. It can be. It ought to be fun. If it's not, stop and ask why.

[D. H2Oman]

(I was asked not to include my "author of..." bylines, which I have omitted, and which, presumably, would make the non-peer position more clear. As to the implied--and sometimes not-so-implied--antipathy towards anyone with actual academic or practice experience, well, we're back to the amused shaking-of-head reaction. Just try this with a prof, or a partner.)

No one cares.

[Cleareyes]

There are a few somewhat fair critiques here, and while I try not to blow too hard, I must admit it's difficult. I've found this board alternatingly amusing and appalling. But, of course, that's going to read as fairly condescending too. I certainly understand the peer assumptions here, but, sorry, I am not a peer. (I was asked not to include my "author of..." bylines, which I have omitted, and which, presumably, would make the non-peer position more clear. As to the implied--and sometimes not-so-implied--antipathy towards anyone with actual academic or practice experience, well, we're back to the amused shaking-of-head reaction. Just try this with a prof, or a partner.)

While I would prefer to be more gracious, in the end this is take-it-or-leave-it territory. And, believe it or not, I'm not going to pout if you leave it. That's your choice. I don't have to respect you for it, but neither will I be upset. We attorneys point out the good, the bad, and the ugly, and leave it to clients to make the ultimate decisions. What is rather offensive is the idea that everyone else is somehow so mentally deficient that they can't make their own decisions. And, yes, I do believe that some of the nonsense on this board and elsewhere is THE reason for why law school is so difficult: it is a manufactured problem. So, no apologies for the fear-mongering. 0Ls ought damned well be nervous, and this board, filled with otherwise decent folk, is an excellent microcosm of why. (And, you'll note, in the original post I present a fairly simple test to new law students for their first week to test whether or not I should be listened to.)

I have to laugh about the "walls of text" line. What do you suppose is going to happen when that wall is dozens upon dozens of cases per week? And the next week, and the next . . . and these cases will make my purposely provocative text seem rather quaint. This is law school we're talking about here, yes? Are you honestly that put off by a few longer-than-email-length posts?

On the other hand, if it makes anyone feel any better, law school is great. Don't worry. Get drunk. Everything will be fine.

Thane.

PS: Law school IS great. It can be. It ought to be fun. If it's not, stop and ask why.

People are not too 'mentally deficient' to make their own decisions, but in order to make those decisions they need to hear both sides. Not only do you relentlessly promote one side, but you do it while A) Claiming to argue from 'authority' and B) Threatening dire consequences if people don't listen. Both those techniques are somewhat effective at making certain types of people listen to you, but they don't make what you say more accurate.

You can't scare me with the threat of the casebook because I've been through a year of law school, dealt with the casebook, and came out the other end fine. Casebooks are very different from forum posts in that in law school it's basically your job to learn the law. So if I have to sit at my desk and pour over a Civ Pro assignment for four hours that's what I have to do. Forum posts are basically a leisure activity.

What you're doing here is actually not that different than religious evangelism. You're claiming to have some secret truth that only you really know, and threatening hellfire to those who don't follow you. I don't find that a compelling way to try to 'help' people in law school.

[Cleareyes]

That first year at Harvard must have been good for you. I'll bet they taught you lots of stuff. Now people who disagree with you are stupid, stupid and fucking stupid morons and the rest of us are silly 0Ls thinking silly 0L thoughts. I'll bet you know all about egotistical and condescending don't you, you smart little Harvard boy.

The problem is that he is
(1) stupid,
(2) often wrong,
(3) egotistical,
(4) condescending,
(5) incomprehensible,
(6) untrustworthy,
(7) stupid,
(8) a fucking stupid moron
(9) who silly 0Ls cotton on to
(10) and then get all up in arms
(11) when people like me say he's dumb
(12) - which he is -
(13) to justify their own silly 0L thoughts.

In Mallard's defense, he was this way before he got to Harvard and he would be this way if he were studying at Barry instead of Harvard. It's just his message board personality. It has nothing to do with Harvard. He's also ginning up the disdain and condescension for dramatic and humorous effect.

Meanwhile your reverse condescension and problem with Harvardians comes through pretty clearly.

[doyleoil]

That first year at Harvard must have been good for you. I'll bet they taught you lots of stuff. Now people who disagree with you are stupid, stupid and fucking stupid morons and the rest of us are silly 0Ls thinking silly 0L thoughts. I'll bet you know all about egotistical and condescending don't you, you smart little Harvard boy.

The problem is that he is
(1) stupid,
(2) often wrong,
(3) egotistical,
(4) condescending,
(5) incomprehensible,
(6) untrustworthy,
(7) stupid,
(8) a fucking stupid moron
(9) who silly 0Ls cotton on to
(10) and then get all up in arms
(11) when people like me say he's dumb
(12) - which he is -
(13) to justify their own silly 0L thoughts.

In Mallard's defense, he was this way before he got to Harvard and he would be this way if he were studying at Barry instead of Harvard. It's just his message board personality. It has nothing to do with Harvard. He's also ginning up the disdain and condescension for dramatic and humorous effect.

Meanwhile your reverse condescension and problem with Harvardians comes through pretty clearly.

this - i'm especially fond of (8), following (7) like it does

[Cleareyes]

That first year at Harvard must have been good for you. I'll bet they taught you lots of stuff. Now people who disagree with you are stupid, stupid and fucking stupid morons and the rest of us are silly 0Ls thinking silly 0L thoughts. I'll bet you know all about egotistical and condescending don't you, you smart little Harvard boy.

The problem is that he is
(1) stupid,
(2) often wrong,
(3) egotistical,
(4) condescending,
(5) incomprehensible,
(6) untrustworthy,
(7) stupid,
(8) a fucking stupid moron
(9) who silly 0Ls cotton on to
(10) and then get all up in arms
(11) when people like me say he's dumb
(12) - which he is -
(13) to justify their own silly 0L thoughts.

In Mallard's defense, he was this way before he got to Harvard and he would be this way if he were studying at Barry instead of Harvard. It's just his message board personality. It has nothing to do with Harvard. He's also ginning up the disdain and condescension for dramatic and humorous effect.

Meanwhile your reverse condescension and problem with Harvardians comes through pretty clearly.

this - i'm especially fond of (8), following (7) like it does

See I like 12. We start out with stand alone propositions and then at 9 we start getting into grammar and fuller concepts, but we're still at IDEAS that can be expressed as stand alone propositions until BAM we hit 12 and it's just this abstract -which he is-. Totally meaningless out of context and funny as an enumerated concepts, especially because it boils down to yet ANOTHER way of saying 'stupid.' Then we get 13, which isn't really about Thane at all but is rather a shot across the bow of the person being responded to. Following stupid with stupid is amusing, but this piece's strength lies in its bang up ending, culminating in what I consider a really nice flourish.

[doyleoil]

See I like 12. We start out with stand alone propositions and then at 9 we start getting into grammar and fuller concepts, but we're still at IDEAS that can be expressed as stand alone propositions until BAM we hit 12 and it's just this abstract -which he is-. Totally meaningless out of context and funny as an enumerated concepts, especially because it boils down to yet ANOTHER way of saying 'stupid.' Then we get 13, which isn't really about Thane at all but is rather a shot across the bow of the person being responded to. Following stupid with stupid is amusing, but this piece's strength lies in its bang up ending, culminating in what I consider a really nice flourish.

oh i agree - it's funny, i was actually going to say 12 as well - but i like cheap, dirty humor - especially in the morning

[Cleareyes]

See I like 12. We start out with stand alone propositions and then at 9 we start getting into grammar and fuller concepts, but we're still at IDEAS that can be expressed as stand alone propositions until BAM we hit 12 and it's just this abstract -which he is-. Totally meaningless out of context and funny as an enumerated concepts, especially because it boils down to yet ANOTHER way of saying 'stupid.' Then we get 13, which isn't really about Thane at all but is rather a shot across the bow of the person being responded to. Following stupid with stupid is amusing, but this piece's strength lies in its bang up ending, culminating in what I consider a really nice flourish.

oh i agree - it's funny, i was actually going to say 12 as well - but i like cheap, dirty humor - especially in the morning

I should have known. You're a man who takes his humor the same way he takes his whiskey and his women.

[vyelps]

Remember when TLS wasn't like a middle school classroom with tons of bickering over ultimately irreconcilable issues?

0Ls: Listen to Thane if you want. Its your law school career and ultimately you have to take ownership of it. In my experience (I'm a rising 2L at Michigan, top 5%), law school comes down to two interrelated things: good time management and good organization. Read Thane's books if you want but generally speaking, no one I know in law school ultimately found any of these types of books useful. Read Getting to Maybe during your fall break so you can understand how law school exams are structured and how they are graded. Take as many TIMED practice exams as you can. You'd be surprised how many students walk into a final having not done this. However, this is an easy mistake to make. You'll get closer to finals and have to finish outlines, finish memos/briefs for your legal writing class. Its not entirely uncommon to become overwhelmed and not make time for practice (I speak from personal experience as it happened to me!) Just stay on top of your reading and note-taking throughout the semester. Outline early enough that you are able to take practice exams and review your answers.

Law school is one of the most interesting and engaging experience I've ever had. It can also be stressful and scary. Make friends, work hard, and go to bed every night knowing you tried your best. That's all you can really do.

[romothesavior]

Remember when TLS wasn't like a middle school classroom with tons of bickering over ultimately irreconcilable issues?

No, I don't.

[Cleareyes]

Remember when TLS wasn't like a middle school classroom with tons of bickering over ultimately irreconcilable issues?

No, I don't.

[vyelps]

Remember when TLS wasn't like a middle school classroom with tons of bickering over ultimately irreconcilable issues?

No, I don't.

maybe i just imagined it then...

[Cleareyes]

Remember when TLS wasn't like a middle school classroom with tons of bickering over ultimately irreconcilable issues?

No, I don't.

maybe i just imagined it then...

When you first arrived the signal to noise ratio was much better because you didn't know all the stuff that was being said. Now the good stuff you've already internalized and the BS stands out much more because you skim over the same good piece of advice you've read 20,000 times.

[romothesavior]

Remember when TLS wasn't like a middle school classroom with tons of bickering over ultimately irreconcilable issues?

No, I don't.

maybe i just imagined it then...

When you first arrived the signal to noise ratio was much better because you didn't know all the stuff that was being said. Now the good stuff you've already internalized and the BS stands out much more because you skim over the same good piece of advice you've read 20,000 times.

Also, the threads about the LSAT and applications (the ones that most people start in) are pretty civil and are full of great information. After you apply and "graduate" from those threads, you realize what a shitshow the rest of this site is. Vyelps may have been sheltered from it since he only has 90 something posts, but once you get out into the general TLS community (and heaven forbid, the lounge) you realize how childish it can be.

[jayn3]

speaking of childish....

and while I try not to blow too hard, I must admit it's difficult.

........seriously, no one else saw this??

[romothesavior]

speaking of childish....

and while I try not to blow too hard, I must admit it's difficult.

........seriously, no one else saw this??

No, this was tl;dr. Just skimmed. But good catch haha... that's funny. Meme-worthy.

[D. H2Oman]

speaking of childish....

and while I try not to blow too hard, I must admit it's difficult.

........seriously, no one else saw this??

How childish of you. I can't wait until Thane comes back and gives you a 3500 word lecture!!!!


LAW SCHOOL IS NOT ALL FUN, GAMES AND ALCOHOL, BUY MY BOOK!!!!!

[jayn3]

speaking of childish....

and while I try not to blow too hard, I must admit it's difficult.

........seriously, no one else saw this??

How childish of you. I can't wait until Thane comes back and gives you a 3500 word lecture!!!!


LAW SCHOOL IS NOT ALL FUN, GAMES AND ALCOHOL, BUY MY BOOK!!!!!

it also involves blowing. hard.

[NU_Jet55]

I just lol'd irl-I love you guys.

[Thane Messinger]

There are a few somewhat fair critiques here, and while I try not to blow too hard, I must admit it's difficult. I've found this board alternatingly amusing and appalling. But, of course, that's going to read as fairly condescending too. I certainly understand the peer assumptions here, but, sorry, I am not a peer. (I was asked not to include my "author of..." bylines, which I have omitted, and which, presumably, would make the non-peer position more clear. As to the implied--and sometimes not-so-implied--antipathy towards anyone with actual academic or practice experience, well, we're back to the amused shaking-of-head reaction. Just try this with a prof, or a partner.)

While I would prefer to be more gracious, in the end this is take-it-or-leave-it territory. And, believe it or not, I'm not going to pout if you leave it. That's your choice. I don't have to respect you for it, but neither will I be upset. We attorneys point out the good, the bad, and the ugly, and leave it to clients to make the ultimate decisions. What is rather offensive is the idea that everyone else is somehow so mentally deficient that they can't make their own decisions. And, yes, I do believe that some of the nonsense on this board and elsewhere is THE reason for why law school is so difficult: it is a manufactured problem. So, no apologies for the fear-mongering. 0Ls ought damned well be nervous, and this board, filled with otherwise decent folk, is an excellent microcosm of why. (And, you'll note, in the original post I present a fairly simple test to new law students for their first week to test whether or not I should be listened to.)

I have to laugh about the "walls of text" line. What do you suppose is going to happen when that wall is dozens upon dozens of cases per week? And the next week, and the next . . . and these cases will make my purposely provocative text seem rather quaint. This is law school we're talking about here, yes? Are you honestly that put off by a few longer-than-email-length posts?

On the other hand, if it makes anyone feel any better, law school is great. Don't worry. Get drunk. Everything will be fine.

Thane.

PS: Law school IS great. It can be. It ought to be fun. If it's not, stop and ask why.

I owe you all an apology, as my message veered into the snide tone that is a major part of the problem among a group of extremely talented individuals who, unfortunately, have a need for others to know just how talented they are.

I'll not edit my earlier post, as this does apply to both professors and your future bosses. With few exceptions, professors and (most) bosses will not be out to get you. Most want you to succeed. But they will, as a rule, be quite unforgiving. Law school is to a large degree a numbers game, and professors are quite content with blind grading and the curve. Practitioners rely on law schools to separate the wheat from the chaff, and this process is what drives much of the misery, because it is disconnected with the classroom experience that has held true for 16 years.

It might be shocking, in an age of presumed respect, that not everyone will hold this view. I can tell you that even nice professors will hold quite stark views about who has it and who doesn't--and this will bear little resemblance to what goes on in the classroom. As students we're focused in our performance in class, and as professors we know that this is, to a large degree, a sideshow. The real show is in exams. Bosses will be rather more forthcoming with their views.

Part of why I'm coming from where I am is that I hardly invented this reality. It was around before I was, and will likely be there long after we're all gone. And so it's a bit annoying to be accused of manufacturing a crisis to step in with a solution.

Yes, most law students try to take the high road. What we see here is a result of frustrations--even and perhaps especially due to perceived violations of group norms. Whether or not you believe my motives, I encourage you--in the silence of your own law school experience--to be aware of the traps that might set in. These traps are disguised because they follow 16 years of what worked before. But what worked before didn't work because it was good--it worked because YOU were. In law school, everyone is smart, and, because of our admission process, everyone is pretty close to equally smart. If you are confused during your semester, realize that this is a reality that nearly all law students experience, and it is not a good sign for what will determine those "A" grades. This is not merely about knowing the law, but about being able to craft a cogent legal analysis with a fresh set of facts, cold. In this way, law exams are very much like law practice.

To all, my apologies.

Good luck. (And I don't mean this in a snide way.)

Thane.

[acdisagod]

I had a girlfriend once who would say she was going to break up with me and then stand and wait for me to say "No, no, don't go!" Thane is that girl for TLS.

Seriously, what is the problem here? Thane gave pretty reasonable answers to a couple of posts on a thread that he started. What is with all of the hostility?
A couple of months ago I suggested that he check out TLS because he has written books for law students and young lawyers, he taught in law schools and currently teaches (I think he is still teaching, don't quote me on that) and he is a practicing lawyer. Maybe he is a little heavy on recommending his own books but he is pretty quick to recommend others when the discussion calls for it. His posts maybe a bit longer than most but they are substantive. I am kind of embarrassed that I recommended TLS to him now.
So Mallard, spell it out for me. What is the problem? Why, on a site for law students, are we being rude to a guy who taught law and wrote and published books for law school students? What do we gain by running him off the site?

He comes off as a huge blowhard. He throws up walls of text like it was still the 07 housing boom and he's king of the WoT construction industry. He mystifies law school over and over claiming that it will make you think in ways you never have before and all that other shit that intimidates people and does not accurately describe the experience of many posters here who have attended law school.

The goal is not to run him off the site but to curb his pompous epic poem posts and to fight back against what we believe to be inaccurate information delivered for self-serving purposes (Nobody ever sold a book by claiming that law school was pretty much like college only you kind of have to do the reading and everything comes down to a final exam that will be delivered in a somewhat novel format, so make sure to read sample exams and sample answers that did well so you're familiar with the format before you take the test.)

There are a few somewhat fair critiques here, and while I try not to blow too hard, I must admit it's difficult. I've found this board alternatingly amusing and appalling. But, of course, that's going to read as fairly condescending too. I certainly understand the peer assumptions here, but, sorry, I am not a peer. (I was asked not to include my "author of..." bylines, which I have omitted, and which, presumably, would make the non-peer position more clear. As to the implied--and sometimes not-so-implied--antipathy towards anyone with actual academic or practice experience, well, we're back to the amused shaking-of-head reaction. Just try this with a prof, or a partner.)

While I would prefer to be more gracious, in the end this is take-it-or-leave-it territory. And, believe it or not, I'm not going to pout if you leave it. That's your choice. I don't have to respect you for it, but neither will I be upset. We attorneys point out the good, the bad, and the ugly, and leave it to clients to make the ultimate decisions. What is rather offensive is the idea that everyone else is somehow so mentally deficient that they can't make their own decisions. And, yes, I do believe that some of the nonsense on this board and elsewhere is THE reason for why law school is so difficult: it is a manufactured problem. So, no apologies for the fear-mongering. 0Ls ought damned well be nervous, and this board, filled with otherwise decent folk, is an excellent microcosm of why. (And, you'll note, in the original post I present a fairly simple test to new law students for their first week to test whether or not I should be listened to.)

I have to laugh about the "walls of text" line. What do you suppose is going to happen when that wall is dozens upon dozens of cases per week? And the next week, and the next . . . and these cases will make my purposely provocative text seem rather quaint. This is law school we're talking about here, yes? Are you honestly that put off by a few longer-than-email-length posts?

On the other hand, if it makes anyone feel any better, law school is great. Don't worry. Get drunk. Everything will be fine.

Thane.

PS: Law school IS great. It can be. It ought to be fun. If it's not, stop and ask why.

Could you try to sound more pretentious? Could you fail any more epically at trying to sound intellegent? I think not.

Your writing, is of course, really crappy. And, what's more, you make rather poor arguments. But, I do beleive, that of course, you must realize, that writing like this, is annoying. And, yes, I do beleive, that you should stop, writing like this.