Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out? Forum

[1Lpanic]

Where does the 35k figure come from? That would defeat much of the purpose of law school if a student at a Top 30 school can't get any sort of job at or below median.

Is there anything definitive that shows that?

I want to make as informed of a decision as possible.

[Black-Blue]

The problem is that right now, the most recent salary data dates back to the class of 08, which was the height of the bubble (remember that the class of 08 was hired based on the economy of 07).

As for 35k at median figure, it's hard to say. There's no data out yet, even for 09 classes. Once the data is gathered, I think schools will purposely withhold it as late as possible because it's probably not going to look very good.

I would guess that 15-25% of the people in the mid T1 range would settle for a 35k job or no job several months after graduation at this year, depending on geographic locality. But just a guess.

[OperaSoprano]

If you don't mind living up by the Columbians

Don't hate!

No hating implied. I quite like going up to the air conditioning unit, and I adore my friends at CLS, but I'd rather live downtown if I could afford it. Lincoln Center makes a nice compromise, not that this area is affordable either.

OP: I am also paying sticker, and borrowing every cent.

[sawwaverunner]

Hey Op,

I know you probably are going to hate this idea based on your desire to stay in NYC, but why don't you transfer to UB or drop out now and send in an application to UB? Tuition it really low there and Cost of living is also low. My first semester was actually fairly relaxed and I feel really excited about going back next semester.

But honestly, below 50% your first semester surely must have been something you considered upon attending. You don't seem to have had a scholarship there either....imagine how those with scholarships are feeling now? I bet there's at least one who got a C on property and is about to throw up, and their expectations should have been far different than yours.

[1Lpanic]

I graduated with latin honors at a top 20ish ugrad so I stupidly thought that if I worked very hard and well at law school I would be in the top 50%. I am stupid.

$39,500 to live in NYC is rrrrrouuuugh. I made more than that doing admin temping and it was hard to get by at times.

[Bankhead]

I didn't mean you were doomed to 35k or doc review.

I'm not saying every person below median is going to be making 35k/unemployed (some will surely be making 60k +), however that will be a reality for many -- ITE and in NYC. Further, and often overlooked on this website is the fact that many people who start out with doc review or a low paying job will end up as very successful and financially comfortable lawyers.

[Bankhead]

Where does the 35k figure come from? That would defeat much of the purpose of law school if a student at a Top 30 school can't get any sort of job at or below median.

Is there anything definitive that shows that?

I want to make as informed of a decision as possible.

ITE/NYC/Fordham's rep as a "feast and famine" law school.

No, I'm not going to quote you Fordham's bullshit inflated statistics showing otherwise. I'd advise you at this point to stop clinging to them, however. I think it's unfortunate that so many people spend 225k believing those "160k median" stats. Just because a substantial minority of Fordham students make biglaw doesn't mean that a comfortable salary is readily available to the large majority of the class upon graduation.

Read my previous post if this one sounds too negative.

[sirchristaylor]

Where there's a will, there's a way. So, believe in yourself, do as well as you can, and you'll figure it all out in the end.

[XxSpyKEx]

I stopped reading after the the middle of the 3rd page of this thread because the optimism on TLS is just mind blowing... Seriously, OP, first wait until you get grades back. If they are below median seriously think about whether it's worth it to stay. Realistically, the only way you will be able to comfortably repay $200K+ in student loans in a normal time period is if you get biglaw *(see below). Don't plan on working on public service and getting loan forgiveness that way through IBR if you are not 100% sure you even want to do public service because 10 years is a long time and you can't call it quits and go into private practice 7 years down the road when you need more $$ for whatever might come up (i.e. IBR forgiveness doesn't happen until the end of the 10 years complete years in PI). Additionally, public service work is not something that's just going to fall into your lap nowadays, there are plenty of people that go to better schools than fordham that built up a resume showing that they wanted to go into PI and still couldn't find anything this year. That means PI agencies are not going to hire you simply because biglaw and other options didn't work out and you want loan forgiveness. Also, ITE it is kinda of ridiculous to even assume that you will walk out of law school making $65-70K /year at the bottom of fordham (or probably any school). There are a LOT of law students that make much, much less then that leaving law school. $45K /year average is probably more realistic if you talking about small firms (such as personal injury work -- I wouldn't count on working in a midsize firm with shitty grades ITE because they take really, really small class sizes in a good economy), but in a lot of those practices they really don't care as much about prestige of the school you went to. It is more about what you have done and what you can do for the firm because a client for a personal injury firm probably doesn't know or care about the difference between NYU or NYLS.

* Just think about the implications of $200K+ debt with 8.5% interest, and zero tax breaks (or close to it). Your annual interest alone on $200K @ 8.5% is $17K (realistically it is going to be a lot higher then this because I am not calculating what your total balance will be at sticker including simple interest while you are in school). In other words, you could pay $17K /year for the next 30 years and in 30 years your total balance on your student loans would be $200K. Even if you were to assume you make $60K /year at a smaller firm right out of school, post-tax that is probably close to $41K /year (probably a little higher, but not by much). So $41 - $17K leaves you with $24K in your pocket if you were to merely pay off your interest every year with your yearly salary. I don't have my financial calculator on hand right now, but I'm going to take a guess that if you wanted to repay your student loans in around 10 years your payments would be around $25K /year for 10 years (probably a low estimate). $41K - $25K = $16K /year in your pocket to live off (not exactly a comfortable lifestyle -- but imagine what the numbers come to if you only make $45K /year, which is probably more likely). Basically what this all means is that realistically you will need to do IBR, and just let the total outstanding loan balance increase across 25 years (assuming no PI), while making 15% of your total income payments. I know a lot of people on here will tell things like that it's not that bad of a deal, and that it makes perfect sense to pay off your student loans across 25 years because your will work for 25 years, but I personally liked that saying that you shouldn't borrow more for school then you can repay in a year (although pretty unrealistic nowadays for most people with the cost of tuition). 25 years is a really long time to commit to repaying student loans (and don't forget about the massive tax bill in 25 years, which may lead to a possible bankrupcty/selling of assets, such as your house, then because you can't afford to pay it!), and if this were me I would think long and hard before making that decision regardless to what a bunch of cheery and overly optimistic people that post anonymously over the internet say.

[Bankhead]

Actually, TLS is way more pessimistic than anything outside of XOXO or JDU. Posters like A'nold and OS are now few and far between.

[thesealocust]

nM

[Danteshek]

OP,
Last night I had a mild panic attack when saw my B in Property. This morning I found out I had an A in Criminal on top of my A- in writing. Still waiting for two more grades. Try to hold on until all your grades are posted.
D.

[Space_Cowboy]

I don't think I could get a 65k job immediately after dropping out. I worked in a creative field before coming to law school. Sadly, the ~210k is around what it costs to pay sticker at Fordham for three years and live in NYC. I turned down a little money at schools like WUSTL to go here because I wanted to remain in NYC where I've made my home.

I have trouble doing a cost/benefit analysis because I am not sure how my job prospects will fare in the bottom 50%.

The debt is really my biggest concern and I did think about it a great deal before choosing Fordham, but people do make mistakes.

You turned down WUSTL with money for Fordham?

[XxSpyKEx]

Actually, TLS is way more pessimistic than anything outside of XOXO or JDU. Posters like A'nold and OS are now few and far between.

What else is there?

[XxSpyKEx]

The problem is that you can't just boil it down to numbers. For people who want to be attorneys, the debt isn't going to ruin their lives. The fact that law school + legal job has a lower return than not lat school + not legal job is important, and should cause SOME people to not go to LS or to drop out w/ sub-biglaw grades, but it's hardly dispositive.

True, which is why I said OP should seriously put some thought into it. I was just trying to respond to some of these posts where everyone makes IBR to be the cure to their debt. IBR public service isn't a bad plan for someone that is 100% that they want to do public service for at least 10 years, but a terrible plan for someone that isn't sure that they want to do public service (or only wants to do it as a back-up plan because they can't get biglaw because that's just not happening ITE). The IBR 25 year plan is a pretty terrible plan unless you really, really want to be a lawyer (and for some reason needed to borrow so much money that you can't repay it) because of the reasons I mentioned earlier. Overall, I think anyone in a situation where they are looking at taking out $200K+ in loans to attend school and then end up with relatively poor job prospects (in terms of salary) really needs to critically assess their overall situation and decide whether they want to be a lawyer enough where they are OK with potentially ruining themselves financially.

[Bankhead]

Actually, TLS is way more pessimistic than anything outside of XOXO or JDU. Posters like A'nold and OS are now few and far between.

What else is there?

lol real life...

[XxSpyKEx]

Actually, TLS is way more pessimistic than anything outside of XOXO or JDU. Posters like A'nold and OS are now few and far between.

What else is there?

lol real life...

Do you actually talk about retarded shit like job statistics and whether you should drop out if you get bad grades with your friends in school or at home? I know I don't.

[BattlingBarrister]

Slightly off topic but this seems to be in the spirit of the thread now. The Chronicle had an interesting article a few days ago:

January 6, 2010

Law Students Adjust Job Expectations to Accommodate Economic Downturn

By Ashley Marchand

Many law-school students tossed aside their expectations of working in lucrative private firms last year, instead opting for lower-paying public-interest jobs, according to an annual survey published today.

The Law School Survey of Student Engagement—part of the family of assessments by the National Survey of Student Engagement—got responses from more than 26,000 law students at 82 law schools in the spring of 2009. The research effort, which is in its fifth year, is led by the Indiana University Center for Postsecondary Research.

This year's survey found that the percentage of law students who expected to work in private law firms dropped to 50 percent, down from about 58 percent in each of the previous three years. The percentage of law students who anticipated finding work in the public-interest sector rose to 33 percent, from about 29 percent in each of the past three years.

The findings "may indicate that law students are reframing their career expectations in response to changes in the economic climate that have affected hiring at many law firms," said Lindsay Watkins, the survey's project manager.

Many large private firms have responded to the economic downturn by delaying start dates for new hires and taking on fewer new hires from the most recent graduating class, Ms. Watkins said.

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, in its most recent job-outlook report, said that economic downturns often lead to less business for firms because of a shrinking demand for discretionary legal services, such as real-estate transactions. Corporations are also less likely to litigate cases when the struggling economy tightens their budgets.

Still, the agency reported that overall job growth for lawyers was expected to increase at the same rate as general employment from now to 2018.

The economic downturn may have altered job expectations of recent law-school graduates, but the survey found that students' debt levels seemed to have experienced no such effect.

"Somewhat surprisingly, students with more debt were not necessarily more likely to see themselves in high-paying positions with private firms," Ms. Watkins said. "The amount of law-school debt did not seem to affect students' choices to enter traditionally lower-paying fields like public-interest law or government service."

Third-year law students who acquired substantial law-school loan debt were as likely to expect to work in the public-interest sector as their peers who had little to no law-school debt. In 2009, 29 percent of law students surveyed said they expect to graduate with more than $120,000 in debt.

In addition to exploring students' job expectations, the annual report provides law schools with insights about students' intellectual experiences, satisfaction with school policies, and personal and professional development.

Among the report's other findings:

Students who are not involved in extracurricular activities study less than their peers and more frequently come to class unprepared.
More than one-third of all law students say that their legal education places little emphasis on acting with integrity in personal and professional settings.
Only about half of all law students frequently receive feedback from their professors that is helpful to their academic development.
Ten percent of law students say they never receive feedback from professors that stimulates their interest in the study or practice of law.
Male students are more likely than female students to receive oral feedback from professors, both during class and outside of class.

Here's to compromising your dreams...

[Bankhead]

Actually, TLS is way more pessimistic than anything outside of XOXO or JDU. Posters like A'nold and OS are now few and far between.

What else is there?

lol real life...

Do you actually talk about retarded shit like job statistics and whether you should drop out if you get bad grades with your friends in school or at home? I know I don't.

Hardly "retarded shit" to talk about at this stage in our lives. I guess you and your friends instead sit around and endlessly debate whether Lady Gaga has a dick or not?

I mean, however, more like the vibe among classmates/CSO/etc. regarding the economy. Surely at law school you too get a certain about how people view their career prospects without it being the direct and immediate topic of conversation.

Heh. You know it's funny I was buying second semester casebooks today and took out my debit card to give to the cashier. I kind of sighed and the clerk goes, "Oh don't worry man, you'll be making this ($400 bucks) in a (billable) hour in a couple years".

[XxSpyKEx]

What else is there?

lol real life...

Do you actually talk about retarded shit like job statistics and whether you should drop out if you get bad grades with your friends in school or at home? I know I don't.

Hardly "retarded shit" to talk about at this stage in our lives. I guess you and your friends instead sit around and endlessly debate whether Lady Gaga has a dick or not?

Something like that. Who the fuck is Lady Gaga again?

Heh. You know it's funny I was buying second semester casebooks today and took out my debit card to give to the cashier. I kind of sighed and the clerk goes, "Oh don't worry man, you'll be making this ($400 bucks) in a (billable) hour in a couple years".

I was just about edit my last post and mention that real life isn't exactly a great comparison in terms of pessimism. Most of my friends at home think all lawyers are RICH, and I'd imagine that what most people think that aren't law students or actual lawyers. So I definitely would hope TLS would be more pessimistic then that... If people here were that delusional I wouldn't waste my time reading posts here.

[Bankhead]

I'm not talking about lay people with no knowledge of the profession itself. I'm just talking about the overall vibe at my law school (or attorneys I know, friends from other law schools) compared to online forums. I go to a T25 and consider most of the people at my school (profs, students, admins) to be reasonably intelligent -- and as a whole more optimistic than TLS.

You'll see that I'm quite a pessimist by looking at my posts, and I'm not disagreeing with you in regards to whether pessimism is warranted.

[OperaSoprano]

You guys are not helping the OP. IBR is not some kind of horrible ball and chain that forces people to stay in public interest. Fordham will make the first five years of OP's IBR payments if he works for a nonprofit, and after that he can reevaluate what he wants to do. There is also legislation pending that will make non PI loan forgiveness tax free, in keeping with the spirit of the program.

My apologies if that was rambling or incoherent. My first grade just posted.

[LSATfromNC]

You guys are not helping the OP. IBR is not some kind of horrible ball and chain that forces people to stay in public interest. Fordham will make the first five years of OP's IBR payments if he works for a nonprofit, and after that he can reevaluate what he wants to do. There is also legislation pending that will make non PI loan forgiveness tax free, in keeping with the spirit of the program.

My apologies if that was rambling or incoherent. My first grade just posted.

Good or bad?

[A'nold]

@OperaSoprano, are you also paying sticker?

I unfortunately also have 5k of ugrad debt left that I deferrred until graduation.

Then you have no idea what "remaining UG loans" are my friend.

[CE2JD]

You guys are not helping the OP. Furthermore, IBR is not some kind of horrible ball and chain that forces people to stay in public interest. Fordham will make the first five years of OP's IBR payments if he works for a nonprofit, and after that he can reevaluate what he wants to do. There is also legislation pending that will make non PI loan forgiveness tax free, in keeping with the spirit of the program.

My apologies if that was rambling or incoherent. My first grade just posted.

Good or bad?

pretty sure it's bottom 50%