JAG Exit Options if you went to a T16 school? Forum

[Aeneas]

I know one ex-Jag, and he is a prosecutor in a gang unit.

I can see the Jag degree being directly applicable to working for the government or becoming a defense lawyer. I really doubt however that it will increase your chances of working in a corporate firm. You don't learn anything appicable, and the fact that you've been removed from the corporate law world so long is not likely to help you.

Sounds like you're really into it though... why not just write an email to the JAG program asking these questions?

Simply put, I like doing all my initial research outside of the main source, because once you go to a recruiter, only God knows what they will tell you to get you interested, and how much is true. I'd rather be able to come to a recruiter with my BS radar totally activated and ready to go.

[Upgrayedd]

^^ A good idea.

Another option is to find some ex-JAGs and talk to them about their careers. Just googling "former JAG" and "law firm" came up with a lot of hits. I'm sure a few of these people would love to share their feelings / experiences with you.

[MNlawdog]

"5. Application Procedure. A selection board meets once annually and its application deadline is the first Friday in June of each year. Application materials, instructions, and deadlines are available on the Careers section of our website. Please contact the JAG Corps Accessions Detailer (PERS 4416E)."

--LinkRemoved--

This is only for direct appointment program. Boards for student programs (anyone still in law school) meet 4 times a year.

[Patrick Bateman]

"5. Application Procedure. A selection board meets once annually and its application deadline is the first Friday in June of each year. Application materials, instructions, and deadlines are available on the Careers section of our website. Please contact the JAG Corps Accessions Detailer (PERS 4416E)."

--LinkRemoved--

This is only for direct appointment program. Boards for student programs (anyone still in law school) meet 4 times a year.

Right, but when I was corrected as to the Navy boards, I was speaking in the context of Direct Appointments.

[sherman]

a partner in law school i had was a jag

what is great about jag is that even senior enlisted get to do smaller cases and where in the civilian world do paralegals get to be counsel and legally advise?

i definitely think a t16 lawyer with any military experience before or after law school, especially jag corps, sounds better than a freshly minted grad from a t16

i really can't see why someone would consider any military service a strike against you

plenty of law grads do public interest law and make low salaries similar to lt. jg's in the military, or GS-7s in the defense department

....

but there is some prejudice, or snobbery, against college and/or law grads who go to the civil service or military from those who landed great fortune 500 jobs

when i graduated from university with my bachelor's, i went to the defense department as a gs-5 for 19k a year, way back when, and my buddy went to the army as a second lt. for 19k a year (equivalent pay as a gs-5) and we both stuggled and were roomates at one point in a low rent apartment

having both been starving college students in the early 90s, this really didn't sound bad at all

but there were always the bachelor's degree recipients with 50k a year jobs right out of school, the same as the ones we went to with the same gpa, who derieded us for going military and dod

the most common comment was, "what, you couldn't get a real job?"

the truth is that these "yuppies" working at their fortune 500 were still in debt paying off that bmw or mercedes they thought they had to have in their corporate parking lot, and spent much of what they had on $1400 dollar armani suits and $200 dollar ties, not to mention the constant cost of dry cleaning

while my lt. friend and i, the dod civil slave, got to work 40 hour weeks for 19k, our other friends who landed jr. management jobs in the fortune 500 worked 100 hours a week in san jose/san francisco for 50k and were often far more stressed out

my numbers are from 1993-1995, so i don't know what a 2nd lt. and gs-5 makes compared to a management trainee for a fortune 500, but i am sure the latter has to put in more than double the hours

so i say, why not go jag?

[un3r3stimat3d]

To the guy who mentioned "free" health insurance:

That may be true, but any firm job (and almost any legal job you get) will get health insurance included with your employment, so it doesn't make sense to add the cost to JAG salary unless you add the cost to the law firm's salary as well. I'm sure military health insurance is great, but I'm sure big firm insurance is pretty good as well.

[gillespiea23]

It seems this whole discussion has been about full-time, active duty JAG service...what about signing up as a JAG for Air Force Guard part-time? I believe you still get the $60k sign-on bonus, but less obligations than being full-time. Anyone know anything about this side?

[Patrick Bateman]

what is great about jag is that even senior enlisted get to do smaller cases and where in the civilian world do paralegals get to be counsel and legally advise?

plenty of law grads do public interest law and make low salaries similar to lt. jg's in the military, or GS-7s in the defense department

While I cannot speak to the Navy specifically, only certified Judge Advocates in the Air Force are able to serve as trial counsel (or any counsel) for that matter. The NCOs of any legal office are tremendously valuable but it would be the same unauthorized practice of law for them as it would be on the civilian side if they provided legal advice or representation, plus probably some UCMJ violation.

Also, the 0-2/0-3 grade parallels GS-9/GS-10, not GS-7. Even the summer law clerks in the AF sit at GS-9.

[J-Rod]

Just read through this thread! It's great and has a lot of information! I've been considering doing JAG as well, not sure which branch though. I like the idea of serving my country, wearing the uniform, getting the salutes! My brother is actually in the army now.

Nip, the JAG school is right next door at UVA, so you and I can walk over there sometime and get some good info. There were a couple of the JAG professors at the ASD's in March who you could talk to.

Also, as far as the transition from JAG to corporate, I'm going to find out about that from the source. A hiring partner for a V20 firm that I worked for will be at UVA in Aug. conducting interviews. He is a family friend, and he and I are probably gonna get together for lunch or dinner while he is in town, and I'm specifically going to ask him about this stuff.

[sherman]

what is great about jag is that even senior enlisted get to do smaller cases and where in the civilian world do paralegals get to be counsel and legally advise?

plenty of law grads do public interest law and make low salaries similar to lt. jg's in the military, or GS-7s in the defense department

While I cannot speak to the Navy specifically, only certified Judge Advocates in the Air Force are able to serve as trial counsel (or any counsel) for that matter. The NCOs of any legal office are tremendously valuable but it would be the same Unauthorized Practice of Law for them as it would be on the civilian side if they provided legal advice or representation, plus probably some UCMJ violation.

Also, the 0-2/0-3 grade parallels GS-9/GS-10, not GS-7. Even the summer law clerks in the AF sit at GS-9.

my friend is us army jag, but only relegated to small cases, prosecution or defense, in iraq as are all E-5s and higher in jag...on the tv show, one of the jag paralegals, petty officer 1st class "whoever" (but an e-6), did some small cases as co-counsel but that it tv

bigger cases go to army officers, and jag officers in iraq are extremely hard to come by

i was in dod after college, as well as another government agency (as a college intern)

here is the breakdown

gs-5 = 2nd lt. or navy ensign
gs-7 = 1st lt. or navy lt. jr. grade
gs-9 = captain or full navy lt.
gs-11 = major or navy lt. commander
gs-13 = lt. colonel or navy commander
gs-15 = colonel or full navy captain

this was the structure when i was an hr person at dod (dmdc-west) in 1995

it may be different now, and you may be right

i will try to find a link, as one person told me that a lt jr. grade (0-2) is now a gs-12 equivalent in "pay" due to extra combat pay and separation pay...and that may be true since we didn't have this huge war when i was at dod in the mid-90s

edit:

here's the update and link, and there seems to be some significant increases on the military side which is good

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IB10089.pdf

and here's a link on military pay vs. civilian pay as congress voted on it:

--LinkRemoved--

[Patrick Bateman]

For GS v. Military Grade:
Department of Defense (DoD) Instruction 1000.1, Table 4.1 (Page 2 of the PDF)
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_repo ... .chap4.pdf

In summary
O-1 (2nd Lt/Ensign) = GS-7
0-2 (1st Lt/Lt JG) = GS-8, GS-9
0-3 (Capt/Lt) = GS-10, GS-11
0-4 (Maj/Lt. Cmd) = GS-12
0-5 (Lt. Col./Cmd) = GS-13, GS-14
0-6 (Col/Capt) = GS-15

The General Schedule v. Military Rank parallel is merely for protocol purposes and determining one's base salary. There are myriad extra allowances and benefits depending on the individual's circumstances.

To Calculate Military Pay (this is quite useful b/c it considers the tax implications of non-taxable BAH/BAS and has up to date BAH based on cost of living)
--LinkRemoved--

[thespinstartshere]

Are there any loan reduction benefits or similar programs for JAG service that would ease the burden of paying 100k+ in loans with a 70-80k salary?

[Patrick Bateman]

Are there any loan reduction benefits or similar programs for JAG service that would ease the burden of paying 100k+ in loans with a 70-80k salary?

Through the JAG Corps, not that I am aware of.

The newly passed College Cost Reduction Act extends to the military and I think would be a benefit to you if you were willing to put the statutory time in (10 years I think but don't quote me on it).

Also your law school's LRAP program. In that most LRAP programs only look at your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) for a determination of you eligibility and only your Basic Pay appears on your W-2 (BAH/BAS are allowances and not taxable/reflected in your AGI). Therefore, while your take home with tax breaks and perks may be in the $65/70K range, your AGI will only be your basic pay ($36-40K), which is even lower when you take your various deductions.
In short, many JAGs can qualify for LRAP.

[thespinstartshere]

Pat - as always, thanks for the information. I had assumed that I would not qualify for LRAP because of the salary after BAH/BAS. Certainly worth looking into.

[Patrick Bateman]

Pat - as always, thanks for the information. I had assumed that I would not qualify for LRAP because of the salary after BAH/BAS. Certainly worth looking into.

Happy to help. I have zero finance/accounting background so my analysis of the LRAP/AGI probably is not water tight. I need to talk to a CPA about all this at some point.

Also, if you have not seen:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =3&t=31543

There are a bunch of other JAG related posts there.

[sherman]

For GS v. Military Grade:
Department of Defense (DoD) Instruction 1000.1, Table 4.1 (Page 2 of the PDF)
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_repo ... .chap4.pdf

In summary
O-1 (2nd Lt/Ensign) = GS-7
0-2 (1st Lt/Lt JG) = GS-8, GS-9
0-3 (Capt/Lt) = GS-10, GS-11
0-4 (Maj/Lt. Cmd) = GS-12
0-5 (Lt. Col./Cmd) = GS-13, GS-14
0-6 (Col/Capt) = GS-15

The General Schedule v. Military Rank parallel is merely for protocol purposes and determining one's base salary. There are myriad extra allowances and benefits depending on the individual's circumstances.

To Calculate Military Pay (this is quite useful b/c it considers the tax implications of non-taxable BAH/BAS and has up to date BAH based on cost of living)
--LinkRemoved--

wow, batman, that's it

i am so glad that there have been some changes on most of the ranks except for col/capt (from my days at dmdc in '95) and i hope it's a good enough incentive to keep college graduates in the military and recruit new ones

for those who think that military service after law school can hurt, one is still a very young person after all of this and has plenty of time to prove themselves in the civilian sector...age 25 at bar passage on average, and age 29 after 4 years of minimum service

i am doing 1L in my mid-40s and there are some students older than me that i have met in law school

[J-Rod]

So, for anyone who was still wondering, this is what the hiring partner I know told me:



With respect to your question about job prospects after JAG, I have a couple of thoughts. It is my opinion that experience in JAG, as any military experience, is an asset in that you learn discipline and detail. The downside, however, is that when you leave JAG your employment options in a non-government job may be somewhat limited as you will be interviewing outside of the normal law school interview process and will essentially be interviewing as a lateral hire (although probably without a substantive civil area of expertise other than general litigation). Accordingly, you will need to send out resumes on your own and hope that the law firms have openings for a third or fourth year associate with litigation experience, but not necessarily substantive expertise. You may be more attractive for a government job such as an Assistant U.S. Attorney, however.

I would therefore make your decision based upon your desire to serve your country and let the chips fall where they may.

It seems that basically, it's harder to get a corporate job, but not impossible. It would be much easier to get a job as a U.S. Attorney, or another government job.

[Palomita]

Ok, so you apply and you get accepted: let's bring it back to the nuts and bolts, you may be a lawyer but you are first and foremost in the millitary. Can anyone share what the nature of the physical training is for Navy JAG? What does 'basic training' consist of?

[Patrick Bateman]

Ok, so you apply and you get accepted: let's bring it back to the nuts and bolts, you may be a lawyer but you are first and foremost in the millitary. Can anyone share what the nature of the physical training is for Navy JAG? What does 'basic training' consist of?

I'll preface this by stating that in that I am going Air Force, most of my knowledge is Air Force based. You might want to do some research for yourself. http://www.usnavyocs.com/ is not a bad place to start.

You start out at Officer Development School (ODS) in Newport, Rhode Island. It is 5 weeks long. This is just like the AF's Commissioned Officer's Training (COT). It is no longer the "Salute School" that it was in years past but it is hardly demanding if you are athletic. You learn how to conduct yourself as a Naval Officer, reporting statements, etc. Basically how to function in the Navy.
You must meet the minimum requirements for crunches (curl ups), pushups, and a 1.5 mile run. Your crunches and pushups are the number you can crank out in 2 minutes.
Assuming you are a 25-29 year old male, the absolute lowest score that would be allowed is:
47 crunches (23.5 each minute)
38 pushups (19 each minute)
13:45 on the run (9 minute mile pace, 6.5 mph give or take).

There is also sometimes a swim requirement but I am 90% sure you do not need to swim at ODS. I would imagine before you pulled a ship tour (6-9 month deployment on a destroyer, carrier, etc) that you might need to meet the swim test.

See: --LinkRemoved--

See also: http://www.jag.navy.mil/careers/careers/jagpath.html

After ODS, you spend 9 or so weeks at the Naval Justice School (NJS). That is law school all over again but specific to the issues you will encounter as a Navy JAG. This parallels the AF's Judge Advocate Staff Officer Course (JASOC).

After that, you are good to go for your first tour.

[Palomita]

Thanks patrick

[themoffman]

^^^^ this is what to expect. I'm sure there are other ways, but a Navy JAG would typically deploy as part of a DESRON, PHIBRON, etc ie some type of carrier/destroyer strike group?
If one were to do this now, I'd say you could expect to go to sea ~twice for eight months at a time within that 4 years
To compare the lifestyle of almost any enlisted or JO to a carrier strike group's only JAG isn't really fair is it? A small ship would be different maybe but I'd imagine on a carrier you would rate fairly high.
thoughts?

[erick2naive]

haha a t16 school. this is just so funny.

[1981be]

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[wrichcirw]

Dudez I lik totaly got da smilee fase avatar so u guyz wud feel mor comfurtable talking 2 me! lolz !&# anD no bodi iz answerving me i am sadd


No takers huh? It's JAG, right? There's got to be other people interested in this!

where....is....my....gun...?

lulz