-delete Forum

[mootness]

TBF, I interned for a judge who had hired 2 Chicago 1Ls as interns the previous summer and they had done such a terrible job of writing anything he nearly gave up on hiring interns at all. One of my comrade interns that same year was a Chicago student who said that her Bigelow taught her nothing, and in fact, the third quarter they met twice - once to get the assignment and once to turn it in. So I would not presume that all Bigelows are incredibly dedicated to teaching (or know anything about how to do it). The situation is the same at the top schools as at the lesser - luck of the draw.

Also, while there are plenty of bad LRW profs, I think one of the problems is that lots of students who go to law school are the type who wrote pretty intuitively in college, and who could pull an all-nighter to write something the night before it was due and get an A, and that doesn't usually work with legal writing, because it's not intuitive. Learning a new writing style/format can be a bit like learning a new language. Again, that's not to say that no LRW prof needs to improve their teaching, but sometimes it's just that legal writing doesn't make a lot of sense when you first encounter it.

That's really interesting what you say about "intuitive" writing and legal writing. Can you explain more about the difference?

[mootness]

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[fats provolone]

OP you seem a little aspie and control freakish. maybe worry less about whether other ppl are doing their jobs properly and just keep your head down and do the best you can.

Why do you think I'm aspie? Is it the way I'm typing? I just typed somewhat professionally, or at least started out typing somewhat professionally, so people would take me seriously and give better advice.

based on the draft email and the entire situation as you've described it

[mootness]

/

[fats provolone]

OP you seem a little aspie and control freakish. maybe worry less about whether other ppl are doing their jobs properly and just keep your head down and do the best you can.

Why do you think I'm aspie? Is it the way I'm typing? I just typed somewhat professionally, or at least started out typing somewhat professionally, so people would take me seriously and give better advice.

based on the draft email and the entire situation as you've described it

No seriously, I don't get it, can you explain in more detail?

i'm just an oracle. really though the second sentence of my post is the one you should focus on.

[mootness]

OP you seem a little aspie and control freakish. maybe worry less about whether other ppl are doing their jobs properly and just keep your head down and do the best you can.

Why do you think I'm aspie? Is it the way I'm typing? I just typed somewhat professionally, or at least started out typing somewhat professionally, so people would take me seriously and give better advice.

based on the draft email and the entire situation as you've described it

No seriously, I don't get it, can you explain in more detail?

i'm just an oracle. really though the second sentence of my post is the one you should focus on.

Also, why am I a control freak?

[A. Nony Mouse]

TBF, I interned for a judge who had hired 2 Chicago 1Ls as interns the previous summer and they had done such a terrible job of writing anything he nearly gave up on hiring interns at all. One of my comrade interns that same year was a Chicago student who said that her Bigelow taught her nothing, and in fact, the third quarter they met twice - once to get the assignment and once to turn it in. So I would not presume that all Bigelows are incredibly dedicated to teaching (or know anything about how to do it). The situation is the same at the top schools as at the lesser - luck of the draw.

Also, while there are plenty of bad LRW profs, I think one of the problems is that lots of students who go to law school are the type who wrote pretty intuitively in college, and who could pull an all-nighter to write something the night before it was due and get an A, and that doesn't usually work with legal writing, because it's not intuitive. Learning a new writing style/format can be a bit like learning a new language. Again, that's not to say that no LRW prof needs to improve their teaching, but sometimes it's just that legal writing doesn't make a lot of sense when you first encounter it.

That's really interesting what you say about "intuitive" writing and legal writing. Can you explain more about the difference?

This is my theory/impression and not scientific, but a lot of people don't get very good training in writing and they write based on the kind of writing they see around them, in whatever they read (fiction/newspapers/textbooks etc.) - they just pick up what works. Legal writing has a very specific format and purpose that your average law student has never encountered before. It's kind of like how you learn your native language by speaking it, without really thinking about it, intuitively. But then when you take a foreign language, you have to figure out how grammar works first (so, for example, you have to know what the different verb tenses are to be able to know whether you use the simple past or the past perfect). It can be really frustrating to take that step back from knowing automatically what words to use, to having to stop and think about each step.

[xael]

Also, I'm curious about what LRW instructors at T10 schools are like. Anyone know firsthand?

sounds a lot like my lrw instructor.

[totesTheGoat]

Also, why am I a control freak?

Because badgering a LRW professor to the point of them getting "emotional" is not normal.

Nor is writing a passive-aggressive response email after badgering the LRW professor.

Nor is airing all of this dirty laundry in a way that practically outs yourself on a public forum where your LRW professor could quite possibly be lurking.


Seriously, keep your head down, do your work, and stop pissing off your professor. Shit professor or no, they're the one who gets to assign you a grade.

[mootness]

Also, why am I a control freak?

Because badgering a LRW professor to the point of them getting "emotional" is not normal.

Nor is writing a passive-aggressive response email after badgering the LRW professor.

Nor is airing all of this dirty laundry in a way that practically outs yourself on a public forum where your LRW professor could quite possibly be lurking.


Seriously, keep your head down, do your work, and stop pissing off your professor. Shit professor or no, they're the one who gets to assign you a grade.

I definitely considered that she or other faculty could be lurking, but it's very unlikely. Even so, when making this thread, I had fully intended to have it deleted within a few days. I'm either going to ask the mods or just edit everything out. I also have to add that I see this professor become emotional, to varying degrees, in class -- but in response to other students, not me. I think it kind of reached a new level last week. Another student asked a question and you could see that she was visibly agitated. She even muttered "what now" sort of under her breath after she answered the question.

[fats provolone]

again, instead of mapping out plans for dealing with the second and third order effects of this thread, why not must ask "what am I doing here?"

[mootness]

again, instead of mapping out plans for dealing with the second and third order effects of this thread, why not must ask "what am I doing here?"

I'm getting advice and clarity.

[mootness]

Honestly, some of what goes down in her class is surreal and I'm left in shock. I've pretty much only had positive interactions with instructors and had only seen other students, at least openly, interact with profs in a positive way. Guessing from the way some other students talk to her... I can sense tension and frustration.

[pancakes3]

If it's really that bad, have you thought of dropping out?

[mootness]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

If this is the first time you've had a bad professor, you should consider yourself lucky - you and your classmates are all in the same boat, put your head down and get through it, and focus your energy on things you have more control over.

For the record, we don't delete threads on request, though you're always free to go back and edit your posts in any way you see fit.

[mootness]

If this is the first time you've had a bad professor, you should consider yourself lucky - you and your classmates are all in the same boat, put your head down and get through it, and focus your energy on things you have more control over.

For the record, we don't delete threads on request, though you're always free to go back and edit your posts in any way you see fit.

I didn't say I never had a bad professor prior to law school... I said: I've pretty much only had positive interactions with instructors and had only seen other students, at least openly, interact with profs in a positive way. Guessing from the way some other students talk to her... I can sense tension and frustration.

[totesTheGoat]

Guessing from the way some other students talk to her... I can sense tension and frustration.

1) Every school has a few shit professors. I have a handful just this semester. It's something you need to deal with. Why? Because you may end up working for at least one shitty lawyer and because I guarantee you will work for at least one shitty client. You can't go sit in your partner's office and tell them what a shit job they did giving you instructions. They'll laugh you out of the firm.

2) They have end of semester evaluations for a reason. The admin may not make massive changes due to these evaluations, but professors ARE taken to task if they're getting consistently poor reviews. I've written page-and-a-half scathing reviews for certain classes. It's nice because it's therapeutic and because they just might read part of it.

3) Your defensiveness in this thread makes me (and i'm sure some other posters as well) scratch my head and think about who is the bigger problem in this story. You've received rather mild criticism in this thread for the actions you took/wanted to take, and you've spent post after post sniping at minor quibbles instead of taking to heart the theme that everybody is trying to get across: you're on the bottom of the authority ladder, and your grade in LRW is more important that being "right."

Overcome the shitty prof, do the work, and once you get your grade you can count your blessings that you never have to go through that again. That's what thousands of law students do every semester in law schools around the world.

[lymenheimer]

I could see that you felt emotional

Please send this and post her reply.

Also, ask her if she's menstruating next time you go to office hours. That may help clear things up.

[mootness]

Guessing from the way some other students talk to her... I can sense tension and frustration.

1) Every school has a few shit professors. I have a handful just this semester. It's something you need to deal with. Why? Because you may end up working for at least one shitty lawyer and because I guarantee you will work for at least one shitty client. You can't go sit in your partner's office and tell them what a shit job they did giving you instructions. They'll laugh you out of the firm.

2) They have end of semester evaluations for a reason. The admin may not make massive changes due to these evaluations, but professors ARE taken to task if they're getting consistently poor reviews. I've written page-and-a-half scathing reviews for certain classes. It's nice because it's therapeutic and because they just might read part of it.

3) Your defensiveness in this thread makes me (and i'm sure some other posters as well) scratch my head and think about who is the bigger problem in this story. You've received rather mild criticism in this thread for the actions you took/wanted to take, and you've spent post after post sniping at minor quibbles instead of taking to heart the theme that everybody is trying to get across: you're on the bottom of the authority ladder, and your grade in LRW is more important that being "right."

Overcome the shitty prof, do the work, and once you get your grade you can count your blessings that you never have to go through that again. That's what thousands of law students do every semester in law schools around the world.

I don't understand the purpose of your post. Have you followed the thread? I said quite a few posts ago that I was going to apologize and move on. Then people starting talking about their LRW experiences, which I found pretty interesting. If you have an interesting LRW experience or insight into LRW, I'd love to hear it. Let's not try to derail the thread again.

[Winter is Coming]

Everyone in your class has the same crappy professor, that's what the curve is for. LRW is an exercise in being able to follow instructions even when there are ambiguities (or you think they don't make sense). It is practice for real-life practice. A lot of local court rules are incredibly asinine but can really screw you if you don't follow them. Sometimes assignments from partners are incredibly vague even after asking a bunch of follow-up questions.

Going off on what you think a teacher should be doing as a 1L or lecturing them on pedagogy and demanding that they come up with "master documents" makes you sound a little aggressive. Just chill out and do your work. 1L isn't the greatest time in the world but adding this amount of stress for LRW is so counterproductive.

[totesTheGoat]

I don't understand the purpose of your post.

I've noticed. The purpose of my post was that even after your apology, you're still hung up on this shitty LRW professor. I'm trying to get you off of that and get you focused on not further sabotaging your LRW grade.

My LRW experience was not particularly fun. I talked with my prof about it, and I got stonewalled like you. Thankfully she didn't take it personally when I told her that the curriculum was quite burdensome on the evening students, and she certainly seemed willing to do everything in her power to help out. However, at some point I realized that nothing was going to change, and I was only going to damage my chances in the class by further complaining. Vent to your classmates, vent to your friends, but don't stick out in class for negative reasons or the prof may single you out for negative consequences.

Then people starting talking about their LRW experiences, which I found pretty interesting. If you have an interesting LRW experience or insight into LRW, I'd love to hear it.

My LRW sucked because it's designed with deadlines and workload meant for day students, and the accommodations for evening students were almost non-existent. No matter how much we told the prof that we couldn't make certain deadlines because we had no time between tuesday and thursday to actually do the work, assignments were still compressed waaaay too close together (to be fair, it wasn't the prof's fault... LRW was a common curriculum across all sections).

Beyond that, most of the "teaching" consisted of learning the absolute basics of Westlaw and reading students' submissions from prior years' assignments, While the expectations were clear on our open memo/brief, we weren't really taught the "how and why," we only learned the "what, when, and where." Overall, LRW is a curriculum that is in desperate need of redesign at my school.

I'm taking an advanced legal research class this semester because my research skills were so laughable that I felt like I would be a poor lawyer if I didn't get more experience.

Let's not try to derail the thread again.

kk, I'll drop it.

[raspberries]

I asked her to make a master document in which she spells out clear instructions and expectations for every section of the next assignment.

As for the mistakes she refused to acknowledge... I read one of her comments on an unmarked version of my assignment to mean that she wanted me to add another theory to an IRAC. I did this for the graded assignment and was penalized. I told her about the misleading comment on the ungraded version, and she would not even countenance how her comment could have been misinterpreted.

We both agreed that your teaching method involves giving scattered information here and there. You said this was to mimic the style of a law firm. I was never informed that legal writing class was intended to be a clinical experience.

Why are you under the impression that professors should customize their style of teaching to your preference? It might not be something you're aware of but your style of conversation seems to demand rather than request. You act as though this professor has conspired to make things difficult for you in specific. TBF, you seem to think yourself to be more important than you are (in the grand scheme of things). "I was never informed that Legal writing was intended to be a clinical experience". Well that's too damn bad. Just do your work and be practical. Figure out what the best approach to passing her class would be-- given the circumstances and your perception of things.

[mootness]

I asked her to make a master document in which she spells out clear instructions and expectations for every section of the next assignment.

As for the mistakes she refused to acknowledge... I read one of her comments on an unmarked version of my assignment to mean that she wanted me to add another theory to an IRAC. I did this for the graded assignment and was penalized. I told her about the misleading comment on the ungraded version, and she would not even countenance how her comment could have been misinterpreted.

We both agreed that your teaching method involves giving scattered information here and there. You said this was to mimic the style of a law firm. I was never informed that legal writing class was intended to be a clinical experience.

Why are you under the impression that professors should customize their style of teaching to your preference? It might not be something you're aware of but your style of conversation seems to demand rather than request. You act as though this professor has conspired to make things difficult for you in specific. TBF, you seem to think yourself to be more important than you are (in the grand scheme of things). "I was never informed that Legal writing was intended to be a clinical experience". Well that's too damn bad. Just do your work and be practical. Figure out what the best approach to passing her class would be-- given the circumstances and your perception of things.

I'm paying thousands of dollars for this course.

[A. Nony Mouse]

honey, that doesn't mean you dictate how the prof teaches.