1L Summer Employment Forum

[romothesavior]

Lastly, 1Lolololoci is a joke at almost all schools so plan on finding your job on your own.

Hey, at least you get some interviewing practice, right? Or are you saying you don't even get interviews.

I didn't land a single interview, and I had better grades after fall semester than I do now. A few people got jobs out of it, and even fewer got firm jobs. I would say do it for sure, but don't expect much without stellar grades, strong connections to a market, or something you can bring to the table like diversity or work experience (and I had none of the above).

Honestly, the key is simply to find something that you will enjoy and can spin into a positive experience during 2L OCI. I want to litigate, so I worked for a law department in the city I was targeting. I loved my job, loved the people I worked with, and had a lot of good things to talk about in OCI. Basically, I was doing real litigation work every single day (memos, research, going to depos and court proceedings, and I even got to write an appellate brief from research to final draft). You are going to get questions at OCI like, "What was the most rewarding assignment you had all summer?" and "What were some challenges you faced during your summer experience?" and "What did you take away from your work this summer?" I was able to talk about researching an appellate brief from start to finish and being able to craft creative arguments, arguing the facts rather than the law since the law was against us, blah blah blah. Did employers say, "WOW! This kid is ready to jump right into the mix, let's hire his ass!" after they heard about my experience? No. But it was a solid enough answer that it didn't look like I screwed around all summer, and it certainly sounded better than what some of my peers were able to do. So IMO, don't try to find the most prestigious gig you can. Try to find something that will give you something to talk about and sell well in an interview, and maybe something that will actually teach you a thing or two about the real practice of lawl.

Also, I have heard a few lawyers say that "work work" > judicial internships. I have a friend who worked for a federal DCT judge in a very prestigious circuit and didn't like it. She went the entire summer without even really talking to her judge. Not saying judicial internships will be harmful in 2L OCI, but personally, I think I got a lot more out of working in a real legal work environment than I would have in a judicial setting. I think I would even take an RA job over a judicial internship, depending on the prof. If you can RA with a well-respected professor who has ties to the area, they will often go to bat for you and make you some very sick connections for 2L year. 0LNewbie, PM me and I'll give you the names of a few profs who I would recommend at WUSTL.

[03121202698008]

Also, I have heard a few lawyers say that "work work" > judicial internships. I have a friend who worked for a federal DCT judge in a very prestigious circuit and didn't like it. She went the entire summer without even really talking to her judge. Not saying judicial internships will be harmful in 2L OCI, but personally, I think I got a lot more out of working in a real legal work environment than I would have in a judicial setting. I think I would even take an RA job over a judicial internship, depending on the prof. If you can RA with a well-respected professor who has ties to the area, they will often go to bat for you and make you some very sick connections for 2L year. 0LNewbie, PM me and I'll give you the names of a few profs who I would recommend at WUSTL.

FWIW, my judicial internship (fed dct) seemed to play better than friends firm jobs did for oci. Find a judge who is hands on and sell the experience. I learned a ton and wrote real orders now on Westlaw. I spent a good deal of each interview talking about it.

[69Coronet]

Glad to see I'm not the only one pondering this whole thing.

I feel like the whole "Don't come to CSO until 11/1, and don't think about a 1L summer gig until 12/1 at least" thing is really awful advice. I am not a fan of doing things in huge groups, I much prefer to be ahead of the pack.

I've drafted up a new cover letter and completely revamped my resume in preparation for sending both of them off.
I went online to my school's CSO website, found all of their sample cover letters and resumes, tailored mine to that format and then had a couple of close friends in hiring positions in different companies (non-legal, unfortunately) take a look at both of them.

My main problem is that I can't decide whether I want to try to focus on a mid/small law gig or a judicial gig.

I *should* be able to nab something in mid/small law based on some good strong undergraduate connections/networking I've been making/doing.

Additionally, my undergraduate school is particularly big in one area courthouse and there are several district and superior court judges in that courthouse that I *should* be able to get internships with based on my UG alma mater.
Obviously, shoulds don't equal jobs, but my real problem is that I am not sure whether to focus on one possibility or the other.
My goal is to at least take a shot at biglaw jobs for my 2L summer, so I'm leaning toward the mid/small law option, but I'm not sure which will look better on my 2L resume.

[FlanAl]

anyone know what is up with really selective firms having 1L summers? One firm I looked at only has 6 associates in an office taking 1L summers.

[TheFutureLawyer]

Its pretty obvious where i go to school...

Although I would love to work for a firm, I doubt that is going to happen. What type of judicial internships should I be targeting?? Should i bother with the federal level or focus on state courts?

+1

Yep.

Also, this has kinda been asked already, but how late is too late in applying for jobs? I was thinking it'd be nice to start after finals.

[rocon7383]

Well, this post is going to be anticlimactic. Cade had PM's in response to my earlier post in this thread about me knowing a decent chunk of 1L's who got biglaw summer clerkships. So here's my response:

I didn't do a biglaw summer clerkship. (So take my advice about landing one with a grain of salt.) I wanted to do a judicial internship for my 1L summer and I waited to apply to those spots right after finals. I had the grades to try and apply for 1L biglaw SA spots, but I didn't even try because 1) I wanted to do a judicial internship more, 2) I didn't care too much about the money (though I don't think I fully took into consideration how much money it would actually be), and 3) I thought it would be a waste of time because I had heard they were so incredibly rare (after I started seeing a decent amount of classmates get one, I started to realize that while they might be somewhat rare, they are definitely attainable).

Splitting my summer between a judicial internship and as biglaw 1L summer SA actually seemed like a dream scenario, but the timing for that was off since 1) I didn't apply early for biglaw and 2) I had two interviews not too long after sending my judicial internship apps out and I said yes to both and split my summer between two judicial internships.

Do I regret not applying to firms for 1L summer? No, because I am very happy with how 2L OCI worked out for me. My answer might be different though if things went differently. And it was definitely more stressful to not have a safety net. I know some people who only applied to 4-5 firms because they were really happy with their 1L summer firm and had an offer to come back before 2L OCI screening interviews actually started happening.

With all that said, my advice to those wanting to get 1L summer biglaw job:
-Send your apps out on December 1st. I know some people who did this with alright grades and ended up with a biglaw summer SA. People were already scheduling screening interviews before finals were over.

so these grades are undergrad grades then?

[thescienceguy]

I applied to 30-ish firms during the last week of winter break (mid-January, I think) and still got 3 callbacks from law firms in February. Ended up 1L summering at a V50. I think the key is to be persistent and write a good, sincere cover letter. Didn't apply to major markets, but for smaller markets, they seemed to really care about ties more than anything. Don't stress.

[ilovesf]

for those 2Ls or beyond that had summer clerkships, how did you decide what courts/judges to apply to? thanks!

[Helmholtz]

for those 2Ls or beyond that had summer clerkships, how did you decide what courts/judges to apply to? thanks!

I just sent an app to every single federal district / circuit court judge in the area.

[shock259]

^^

That's my plan (except with everything in my state). Dare I ask what your response rate was? And did you get them out on Dec 1?

Thanks.

[ilovesf]

for those 2Ls or beyond that had summer clerkships, how did you decide what courts/judges to apply to? thanks!

I just sent an app to every single federal district / circuit court judge in the area.

Great, thanks!

[Helmholtz]

^^

That's my plan (except with everything in my state). Dare I ask what your response rate was? And did you get them out on Dec 1?

Thanks.

I waited until near the end of winter break to have everything sent out, which was probably a huge mistake. Most judges had already filled their internship spots by then, so my response rate was not good. It was also an extremely competitive market. I ended up with something good but I feel like a lot of it came down to the strength of my school's name.

[ilovesf]

^^

That's my plan (except with everything in my state). Dare I ask what your response rate was? And did you get them out on Dec 1?

Thanks.

I waited until near the end of winter break to have everything sent out, which was probably a huge mistake. Most judges had already filled their internship spots by then, so my response rate was not good. It was also an extremely competitive market. I ended up with something good but I feel like a lot of it came down to the strength of my school's name.

Thanks for the advice. I'm also aiming for a popular market (SF), but I don't have the best name recognition in the region (I go to Hastings), so I'm going to try to send things out Dec 1. How did you handle preparing your writing samples? I won't even get my third memo back until January.

[ph14]

^^

That's my plan (except with everything in my state). Dare I ask what your response rate was? And did you get them out on Dec 1?

Thanks.

I waited until near the end of winter break to have everything sent out, which was probably a huge mistake. Most judges had already filled their internship spots by then, so my response rate was not good. It was also an extremely competitive market. I ended up with something good but I feel like a lot of it came down to the strength of my school's name.

Thanks for the advice. I'm also aiming for a popular market (SF), but I don't have the best name recognition in the region (I go to Hastings), so I'm going to try to send things out Dec 1. How did you handle preparing your writing samples? I won't even get my third memo back until January.

Besides firm jobs, what are the best summer jobs? I realize this is very subjective but I'm just trying to start or narrow my search.

[Helmholtz]

^^

That's my plan (except with everything in my state). Dare I ask what your response rate was? And did you get them out on Dec 1?

Thanks.

I waited until near the end of winter break to have everything sent out, which was probably a huge mistake. Most judges had already filled their internship spots by then, so my response rate was not good. It was also an extremely competitive market. I ended up with something good but I feel like a lot of it came down to the strength of my school's name.

Thanks for the advice. I'm also aiming for a popular market (SF), but I don't have the best name recognition in the region (I go to Hastings), so I'm going to try to send things out Dec 1. How did you handle preparing your writing samples? I won't even get my third memo back until January.

I sent out my resume and a cover letter via snail mail, and then mentioned in my cover letter that I would be more than happy to provide a writing sample. I think my judge hired me without even seeing my writing sample. I had one long writing project, and I sent that out to a few judges who asked for it. I just edited it down and left in the portions that best showcased my writing ability. I don't know how much the writing sample matters (it's not like you're going to be doing a bunch of substantive writing as a 1L intern.

[Helmholtz]

^^

That's my plan (except with everything in my state). Dare I ask what your response rate was? And did you get them out on Dec 1?

Thanks.

I waited until near the end of winter break to have everything sent out, which was probably a huge mistake. Most judges had already filled their internship spots by then, so my response rate was not good. It was also an extremely competitive market. I ended up with something good but I feel like a lot of it came down to the strength of my school's name.

Thanks for the advice. I'm also aiming for a popular market (SF), but I don't have the best name recognition in the region (I go to Hastings), so I'm going to try to send things out Dec 1. How did you handle preparing your writing samples? I won't even get my third memo back until January.

Besides firm jobs, what are the best summer jobs? I realize this is very subjective but I'm just trying to start or narrow my search.

Judging from my own experience and conversations I've had with a bunch of other law students, I really think that you can't go wrong working for a judge in a federal court. Typically, the judges are extremely competent, good mentors, and there are so many interesting things going on in major-market federal district courts (I saw my fair share of terrorism and mob trials over the summer—pretty thrilling stuff). I've also heard really good things from people who went the DOJ/USAO route.

[ph14]

I waited until near the end of winter break to have everything sent out, which was probably a huge mistake. Most judges had already filled their internship spots by then, so my response rate was not good. It was also an extremely competitive market. I ended up with something good but I feel like a lot of it came down to the strength of my school's name.

Thanks for the advice. I'm also aiming for a popular market (SF), but I don't have the best name recognition in the region (I go to Hastings), so I'm going to try to send things out Dec 1. How did you handle preparing your writing samples? I won't even get my third memo back until January.

Besides firm jobs, what are the best summer jobs? I realize this is very subjective but I'm just trying to start or narrow my search.

Judging from my own experience and conversations I've had with a bunch of other law students, I really think that you can't go wrong working for a judge in a federal court. Typically, the judges are extremely competent, good mentors, and there are so many interesting things going on in major-market federal district courts (I saw my fair share of terrorism and mob trials over the summer—pretty thrilling stuff). I've also heard really good things from people who went the DOJ/USAO route.

Great thanks. I would love to work for a federal judge during the summer.

[Grizz]

I enjoyed my time at USAO a lot.

[DarkwingDick]

So I applied on 12/1 last year but I had classmates who mailed their stuff out 11/30, and when I found out, I kicked myself. Probably doesn't matter at all, though.

[shock259]

Question: how much less prestigious is a state court internship? I'm trying to decide if I should narrow my search because my results are getting unwieldy. At the moment, I'm compiling judge information for all of the courts in the state, minus the small claims ones. So, my list includes all judges from all state trial courts, state appeals courts, state supreme court, federal trial courts, and federal court of appeals. In total, I'm guessing there are going to like 250 people on this list.

Although if I axe the state trial court judges, I'll probably only be left with like 50 people. There's only about 10 federal judges in the district court.

Harumph.

My career path is JAG. There is only one summer internship program, which begins processing apps on Feb 1. A JAG recruiter told me to do something public service-related for my first summer if I couldn't get into a JAG internship. My primary goal is to either get the Navy JAG summer internship or a judicial internship. Secondary goal is nonprofit or private practice.

Thanks guys.

[Helmholtz]

Question: how much less prestigious is a state court internship? I'm trying to decide if I should narrow my search because my results are getting unwieldy. At the moment, I'm compiling judge information for all of the courts in the state, minus the small claims ones. So, my list includes all judges from all state trial courts, state appeals courts, state supreme court, federal trial courts, and federal court of appeals. In total, I'm guessing there are going to like 250 people on this list.

Although if I axe the state trial court judges, I'll probably only be left with like 50 people. There's only about 10 federal judges in the district court.

Harumph.

My career path is JAG. There is only one summer internship program, which begins processing apps on Feb 1. A JAG recruiter told me to do something public service-related for my first summer if I couldn't get into a JAG internship. My primary goal is to either get the Navy JAG summer internship or a judicial internship. Secondary goal is nonprofit or private practice.

Thanks guys.

It really doesn't matter that much career-wise. I know a number of people who did things like worked for non-"prestigious" public interest organizations over their 1L summer and are heading to a V5 or elite boutique firm next summer. I can see it making a difference if your pre-1L resume screams one thing and you want to go into something different—then it might help to spend your 1L summer doing that different thing to show some kind of commitment. But what do I know.

Also, almost without fail when you're interviewing for jobs, your interviewer will say something to the effect of "so, tell me about your summer." That's when it helps to have something that's inherently interesting and that gave you some good hands-on experience. But even then, it's easy to spin almost any summer experience to sound interesting and useful. I think there is something to be said about the value of the actual experience that you may get in terms of working big-market federal court versus small-market state court (speaking in very general terms), but don't fret it.

The only thing that you may run into is that turning down judges who accept you for an internship spot can be considered a little taboo. The late deadline for JAG sort of puts you in a bind there.

[shock259]

Extremely helpful, as always. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll have to give the whole situation some more thought. On the one hand, a Navy JAG internship could be extremely helpful for a future application. Possibly near determinative if I got a stellar recommendation from a CO. On the other hand, the last Navy recruiter I spoke to mentioned that the selection rates for the 1L summer internship hovered around 15%. Big gamble. And I won't have my grades back until mid January.

Maybe for now I'll plan on applying to all of the courts and hope I don't hear back until I get my grades back. If grades are amazing/good, I may hold out for the JAG internship. If less so, I'll take whatever judicial internship I get.

Eek.

Edit: finished compiling it all. 224 names in total. Now to just figure out the logistics of preparing 224 envelopes, stamps, letters, and resumes.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Well, this post is going to be anticlimactic. Cade had PM's in response to my earlier post in this thread about me knowing a decent chunk of 1L's who got biglaw summer clerkships. So here's my response:

I didn't do a biglaw summer clerkship. (So take my advice about landing one with a grain of salt.) I wanted to do a judicial internship for my 1L summer and I waited to apply to those spots right after finals. I had the grades to try and apply for 1L biglaw SA spots, but I didn't even try because 1) I wanted to do a judicial internship more, 2) I didn't care too much about the money (though I don't think I fully took into consideration how much money it would actually be), and 3) I thought it would be a waste of time because I had heard they were so incredibly rare (after I started seeing a decent amount of classmates get one, I started to realize that while they might be somewhat rare, they are definitely attainable).

Splitting my summer between a judicial internship and as biglaw 1L summer SA actually seemed like a dream scenario, but the timing for that was off since 1) I didn't apply early for biglaw and 2) I had two interviews not too long after sending my judicial internship apps out and I said yes to both and split my summer between two judicial internships.

Do I regret not applying to firms for 1L summer? No, because I am very happy with how 2L OCI worked out for me. My answer might be different though if things went differently. And it was definitely more stressful to not have a safety net. I know some people who only applied to 4-5 firms because they were really happy with their 1L summer firm and had an offer to come back before 2L OCI screening interviews actually started happening.

With all that said, my advice to those wanting to get 1L summer biglaw job:
-Send your apps out on December 1st. I know some people who did this with alright grades and ended up with a biglaw summer SA. People were already scheduling screening interviews before finals were over.

so these grades are undergrad grades then?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. It is my understanding firms didn't make offers until your 1st semester grades are all in, but you can schedule interviews with the firm before this. (I.E. You are from city X and you go to school in city Y. It is pretty common to schedule an interview in city x with firms from city x over your christmas break--so before most, if any, of your grades have been released.) It probably is too late to apply to most biglaw 1L spots if you wait until you get all your grades back (so like Jan/Feb), but maybe someone can correct me on this.

[Why is the guy who did judicial internships (AKA, me) giving 1L biglaw hiring advice? Doublechecks--you carry the torch from here on out.]

[03121202698008]

Question: how much less prestigious is a state court internship? I'm trying to decide if I should narrow my search because my results are getting unwieldy. At the moment, I'm compiling judge information for all of the courts in the state, minus the small claims ones. So, my list includes all judges from all state trial courts, state appeals courts, state supreme court, federal trial courts, and federal court of appeals. In total, I'm guessing there are going to like 250 people on this list.

Although if I axe the state trial court judges, I'll probably only be left with like 50 people. There's only about 10 federal judges in the district court.

Harumph.

My career path is JAG. There is only one summer internship program, which begins processing apps on Feb 1. A JAG recruiter told me to do something public service-related for my first summer if I couldn't get into a JAG internship. My primary goal is to either get the Navy JAG summer internship or a judicial internship. Secondary goal is nonprofit or private practice.

Thanks guys.

State court is not only much less prestigious...it is probably not as great of an experience. Appellate and SC wouldn't be as bad but state trial courts are a zoo and don't tend to involve issues requiring the same level of research and writing as federal court. As for federal, I did a district court and loved the experience. I have friends who did CoA and loved it but I don't think i would have enjoyed it as much.

[FeelTheHeat]

I enjoyed my time at USAO a lot.

I'm REALLY hoping to land this. I'm going to have my cover letter + resume ready to send out on December 1st. Any basic advice on how to differentiate myself for it?