T14, top 5 percent, answering questions Forum

[thecilent]

I'm always surprised when people say they only needed to study 4-5 hours a day or something like that. I was studying hard-core and felt like I could barely keep up a lot of days.

True, true; I hear ya.

Question regarding supplements: Do you think it all depends on the prof? Or are there any you would recommend in general?

Very few of them, especially once you get the hang of LS. I wasted way too much time and money on supplements. People think they are a magic substitute for preparing for class and paying attention (i.e. not g-chatting and facebooking) in class. They are not.

That being said:

Torts
No recommendation

Property
Gilbert Law Summary
One of the books with future estates problems in them.

Civil Procedure
Glannon Guide
Intro to Civ Pro by Freer
E&E

Contracts
U.C.C. Hornbook by White & Summers

Con Law
Chemerinsky

Crim Law
Dressler Black Letter Law Outline

Very cool; thanks. VW, interested to hear your opinion on supps to if you have a chance..

[DiscoveryDeadline]

Are you a 2L now?

Yes. Transferred from T14 to HLS after successful 1L.

To each his own. I'm just talking about what worked for me.

I think that this is the first time a lot of people are in a classroom competing against people in the same intelligence range as them, and that's not to be taken lightly.

The biggest thing I would say is to make the most of your study time, however long it may be. If it is five hours, don't let that be two hours interspersed with three hours of G-chat.

Like I said, I was up early, for one reason, because I had a SO to carve out time for and wasn't just making my own flexible, on-the-fly schedule. That might alter the dynamic some.

But the bottom line is that it is easy to get complacent and fall behind.

[Kobe_Teeth]

Obviously few people are going to replicate OP's efforts but obviously it worked. Why hate?

My question for OP though, looking back, what did you do that you now look back and say "maybe that was overkill?" Or to put it another way - now that you're a 2L and an experienced LS test-taker, what part of your regimen are you scaling back?

[DiscoveryDeadline]

Obviously few people are going to replicate OP's efforts but obviously it worked. Why hate?

My question for OP though, looking back, what did you do that you now look back and say "maybe that was overkill?" Or to put it another way - now that you're a 2L and an experienced LS test-taker, what part of your regimen are you scaling back?

Supplements. Absolutely supplements. Big waste of time and money and energy. I would see someone with some supplement, and get this icy fear that they were gaining an edge that I was missing, then go out and buy it.

You learn law by figuring it out and thinking it through, not by having it spoon fed to you by a supplement that might not present the material the same way as your professor.

[let/them/eat/cake]

Why wouldn't you, though?

What's the downside?

You mean other than wasting time, overworking yourself, and missing out on having a life when you have a chance to if you're responsible enough about your studies? Kinda like this:

I'm always surprised when people say they only needed to study 4-5 hours a day or something like that. I was studying hard-core and felt like I could barely keep up a lot of days.

different strokes, obviously, but it's definitely more than possible to keep up and understand the material very well doing only 5 hours of work outside of class a day, on average. Very good friend of mine is just outside top 10% and my group of friends was at the complete polar opposite end of spectrum when it comes to approaches to LS. Like, take this approach, and do the exact opposite lol

but idk, if you are gunning for SCOTUS clerkships or prestige is super super important to you, then by all means, one should "leave it all on the field." And there is something to be said about the stress mitigation factor: though finals weren't all that stressful (law school material is not that hard, and don't let anyone fool you into thinking it is), the OCI process certainly was. It was, in fact, probably the most anxiety-ridden 6 weeks of my life. It may have been worth working harder so as to do better just to relieve some of that stress. That being said, there's also the arbitrariness of law school grading and exams (which prof u get, what day they are grading your paper, etc.) to consider--i.e., working harder may not have helped me do any better. But i do know that for many people, the approach promoted ITT could lead to some serious burnout, and burnout 2 weeks before exams is something to avoid at all costs. Balance, for some people, is necessary.

[SilverE2]

Wow lot of haters in this thread.

[DiscoveryDeadline]

Why wouldn't you, though?

What's the downside?

You mean other than wasting time, overworking yourself, and missing out on having a life when you have a chance to if you're responsible enough about your studies? Kinda like this:

I'm always surprised when people say they only needed to study 4-5 hours a day or something like that. I was studying hard-core and felt like I could barely keep up a lot of days.

different strokes, obviously, but it's definitely more than possible to keep up and understand the material very well doing only 5 hours of work outside of class a day, on average. Very good friend of mine is just outside top 10% and my group of friends was at the complete polar opposite end of spectrum when it comes to approaches to LS. Like, take this approach, and do the exact opposite lol

but idk, if you are gunning for SCOTUS clerkships or prestige is super super important to you, then by all means, one should "leave it all on the field."

The thing is, though, I would gun for an A-plus, and end up with an A-minus. For me, "gunning for SCOTUS clerkships or prestige" is the only way to at least try to ensure success at all. There's a James Cameron quote I love about how you may overreach and fail, but you've still attained more than everyone else.

And I wholeheartedly agree about the anxiety of OCI. Thank god that is over with. I actually cried when it was over. Just an emotional release from the past year-plus.

[DiscoveryDeadline]

I think some of you are putting too much stock into the time portion of my posts.

What is really important is paying attention in class instead of Internet surfing, and keeping up throughout the semester rather than trying to scramble at the end.

Again, the important thing is to flip the switch from learning the law to applying the law before the rest of the class does the same. How you get there depends on the individual.

[vanwinkle]

Very cool; thanks. VW, interested to hear your opinion on supps to if you have a chance..

I think the best advice on supplements is to either 1) ask your prof during office hours if they recommend one, or 2) ask people who took your prof previously which supplement to use. However, there are two that are nearly universal: For Civ Pro use Glannon's E&E (or the Glannon Guide, which I found more useful, but by the same author), and for Con Law use Chemerinsky's massive treatise.

I do strongly concur with OP on some points, particularly paying attention in class and taking good notes. My two highest grades were in classes where I barely touched a supplement and made my outline myself using nothing but my in-class notes, the casebook, and Wikipedia. The more you focus on what the professor taught you the more you'll be able to hit the issues he/she wants you to on the exam, for the most part.

But unlike OP I was able to do that and still make free time for myself. Downtime is important, and I've even seen studies suggesting that you never retain more than 20 minutes of knowledge no matter how long you study. I'd constantly study in small chunks; I might be studying all day long, but it'd be 20-30 minutes of studying, go hang out with someone, 20-30 minutes, catch up on House or watch a movie, 20-30 minutes, play Rock Band with friends...

It wasn't until November I was in full time study mode, and I think hitting things in small bursts over and over through the semester kept me fresh enough in the material that I could make it all coalesce at the end easily in a mass studyfest.

It's not that I'm saying OP's method won't work, it's that I don't think it's necessary to be in it all the time as much as he suggests from day one, and that it's certainly possible to succeed while having a life in law school.

[vanwinkle]

I think some of you are putting too much stock into the time portion of my posts.

What is really important is paying attention in class instead of Internet surfing, and keeping up throughout the semester rather than trying to scramble at the end.

Again, the important thing is to flip the switch from learning the law to applying the law before the rest of the class does the same. How you get there depends on the individual.

See, I agree with you here, my point was just that it's possible to do all that without putting in as much time as you did.

[keg411]

I think that having a serious SO/being married is more of an effect than you think on things like social life. OP didn't have to worry as much about the social pressures in law school, but had to spend time to study and spend time with the SO. This approach kind of reminds me of the Xeoh thread (he didn't appear to have much work/life balance in the way that is often thought of either and his schedule was pretty intense as well; in fact, I think it sounds like OP got more sleep).

If you're single, however, there is definitely more social pressure (even if it's internal). I think the "I didn't socialize" part is being taken too seriously and is missing the point of most of the advice (i.e.: don't fall behind, remember it's your professor's way of teaching the class, take timed PT's, etc., which seem pretty conventional if you read most of the "How I Did Well..." threads).

Thanks for the advice OP .

[lawblahblah]

I think that having a serious SO/being married is more of an effect than you think on things like social life. OP didn't have to worry as much about the social pressures in law school, but had to spend time to study and spend time with the SO. This approach kind of reminds me of the Xeoh thread (he didn't appear to have much work/life balance in the way that is often thought of either and his schedule was pretty intense as well; in fact, I think it sounds like OP got more sleep).

Thanks for the advice OP .

As a married 1L, I totally agree with this. It is a different experience with different pressures if you have a SO.

[td6624]

you sound like a total dick.

i'd rather be unemployed.

edit: that's probably unfair. you're probably not a dick. but. meh.

[DiscoveryDeadline]

you sound like a total dick.

i'd rather be unemployed.

First, I'm not a dick.

Second, you wouldn't rather be unemployed than work hard. Trust me. You wouldn't.

I'm just trying to stress that for the vast majority of people, law school takes a lot of hard work. And smart work, too.

You are being graded on a curve against people of mostly equal or greater intelligence than you. Everyone is smart. Everyone works hard, at least during 1L. You have to make every effort to storm out of the gate. I know OCI seems like it is light years away for you right now, but it comes fast, and you don't want to be the one walking in there justifying your poor performance.

Having gone through 1L now and succeeded, you do not want to half-ass this. You don't want to just assume that you'll be all right. Try to put away the video games and the Netflix. It's one year of your life. One.

[doyleoil]

Coming from someone who did well at a good school, you do not need to completely give your life away as a 1L. You really don't. I do think you should be in class every day (and plugged in to class - not surfing the net). Other than that, there's some extremism in this thread that I think is a little over the top.

ETA: you have to know when, and how, to "turn it on." I saw people spinning their wheels in the library for HOURS a day during the first five-six weeks of class. That's insanity. And leads to burn out. And the vast majority of those people, well, ....you get my drift.

[hiromoto45]

.

[flightcontrol]

I think there's a lot of paranoia on this website, and threads like this just make me cringe.

I am at the top of my class at CCN, with offers at nearly every firm I interviewed at, and I did not work 1/10 as hard as this guy. I'm not saying what he did didn't help; I'm saying it is not a necessary condition to do well. Do your reading, go to class, and then go drinking. Poke your head past the books and talk to people. Talk to them about the law, and talk to them about life. Both help you do well.

I just want to say that it is 100% possible to have strong grades and enjoy your 1L year.

[Unemployed]

I think there's a lot of paranoia on this website, and threads like this just make me cringe.

I am at the top of my class at CCN, with offers at nearly every firm I interviewed at, and I did not work 1/10 as hard as this guy. I'm not saying what he did didn't help; I'm saying it is not a necessary condition to do well. Do your reading, go to class, and then go drinking. Poke your head past the books and talk to people. Talk to them about the law, and talk to them about life. Both help you do well.

I just want to say that it is 100% possible to have strong grades and enjoy your 1L year.

I'm sure OP means well but the funny thing about law school is that you can be even more committed than OP and still end up median-pwned. And of course, slackers get top grades all the time.

While it would be stupid to hang your hat on the off chance that your brain is wired for law school, the optimal effort level is far below what OP suggests IMHO.

[98234872348]

I think there's a lot of paranoia on this website, and threads like this just make me cringe.

I am at the top of my class at CCN, with offers at nearly every firm I interviewed at, and I did not work 1/10 as hard as this guy. I'm not saying what he did didn't help; I'm saying it is not a necessary condition to do well. Do your reading, go to class, and then go drinking. Poke your head past the books and talk to people. Talk to them about the law, and talk to them about life. Both help you do well.

I just want to say that it is 100% possible to have strong grades and enjoy your 1L year.

I'm sure OP means well but the funny thing about law school is that you can be even more committed than OP and still end up median-pwned. And of course, slackers get top grades all the time.

While it would be stupid to hang your hat on the off chance that your brain is wired for law school, the optimal effort level is far below what OP suggests IMHO.

I think the best advice you can give anyone, besides "apply the law to the facts on exams" is that there are a lot of different strategies to success in law school, you've got to find which one works for you, which one helps you grasp the material, and then employ that method. Everyone learns differently.

[DiscoveryDeadline]

People are throwing the baby out with the bath water here and concentrating on the one portion of my answers that seem to really rub a raw nerve at TLS: Sacrificing your personal life, even a degree, for 1L success.

I'm not some crazy, wild gunner. Like I said, I have a serious SO. I see threads on here all the time: "Should I break up with my SO for law school?" I'm not advocating anything that ridiculous. I never missed an Ohio State or Bengals game on the weekend. Watched them all. I didn't go to professors' office hours. I didn't podium gun after class.

But I did stay on top of things to what maybe some would consider an irrational degree. I probably was in the 95th percentile of amount of work put in. Like I've said, some of it was wasted time: Too much time with supplements without enough returns. I saw other people spending time that I thought was wasted on things like non-functional outlining or issue-spotting without writing the practice exam. I'm trying to tell you what worked for me - as well as what didn't. But I knew coming in that I was a borderline T14 admit: 3.3, 169.

On the lifestyle thing, I'm just saying not to get sucked into your undergrad ways. You're a big boy/girl now. If you are seeking "balance" because you don't want to burn out late in the semester, that's reasonable. But, for me at least, the idea that exams were approaching helped give my studying a shot of adrenaline and prevent burn out at least a little bit. If you are seeking "balance" because Oprah tells you that it's important, that's not a good enough reason.

Again, this is one year of your life.

I'm just saying when it's time to buckle down, buckle down. Put down the video game. Log off Facebook. Time can honestly get away from you really, really fast, especially late in the semester when you are trying to cram review and keep up with your daily reading.

[MPMP]

With classes starting to kick into gear at most places and the initial shock over with, figured I might make myself of service to those still getting adjusted.

Fire away, and I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

I'm a little worried that the things we are covering now will fade out of my memory a little bit as my classes start to cover more advanced topics. Any suggestions for how to keep everything fresh? Just review notes? CALI lessons?

Also, if you had to pick the most important thing to look for in every case, what would you focus on? Holding? Or are the questions in the end the most important part to think about?

[ChardPennington]

I'm guessing this guy doesn't get laid very often.

[ChardPennington]

You:

you sound like a total dick.

i'd rather be unemployed.

edit: that's probably unfair. you're probably not a dick. but. meh.

and you:

I'm guessing this guy doesn't get laid very often.

Knock it off.

Allow me a brief elaboration:

There is never a time in one's legal career when you don't need to work hard. Sure, 1L is pretty damn important for getting a big firm offer. But 2L grades are pretty important too if he wants to clerk, and something tells me that OP has his eye on an Article III clerkship. And what about when he starts as a biglaw associate? Surely he's not thinking that the work will let up then, at least not if he hopes to make partner. And on, and on, and on.

Obviously there are some times when one must work harder than others, and 1L is one of those times (theoretically), but the idea of "Sacrificing your personal life just for the year" is repugnant to Yours Truly for the following two reasons:

(1.) There will never be a year when you don't have to work hard, so life is about balance - every year, including 1L. If you can't work hard and get results without socializing more than once a month, you're doing something very, very wrong and you're going to hate your life at a firm when the demands are far in excess of what 1L professors demand.

(2.) You never know when you're going to be hit by a bus, and when/if that happens, you want to look back at your life in those two seconds between impact and the moment that you bleed out in a ditch and think to yourself "Hey, no worries, I lived well." I for one would not think such a thing if I'd spent all of law school in the library. I'd think something more along the lines of "Oh fuck, a bus."

So, I reiterate my implied suggestion that, however much sex OP has been having, he should have more, and ideally work less.

[spondee]

You never know when you're going to be hit by a bus, and when/if that happens, you want to look back at your life in those two seconds between impact and the moment that you bleed out in a ditch and think to yourself "Hey, no worries, I lived well." I for one would not think such a thing if I'd spent all of law school in the library. I'd think something more along the lines of "Oh fuck, a bus."

Haha. I don't think lots of sex will change this. No matter what I did the year before, I'd be thinking, "Oh fuck, a bus."

[Shaggier1]

Thanks for the advice and insight, OP. Helpful.