JAG Exit Options if you went to a T16 school? Forum

[candlelight01]

and that you have selected to suspend your personal ethics and ability to make rational decisions until your time is done.

As opposed to Biglaw where your personal ethics and rational decisions as a junior associate make a huge impact on the direction of the firm?

[MNlawdog]

I'm in the middle of applying for the Navy JAG as well, (2L) and it seems like there are a couple things you should be straight about: 1) although it is a 4 yr commitment, there is also an additional 4 yrs in "inactive" status, which means you can be recalled if something goes down. With the way things are headed in Iran/Syria/North Korea/China it might not be that long of a shot that you actually end up with 8 years in, not 4. 2) I've spoken to two former Navy JAGs, and both have had no problem going into prosecutor/solo work, but both expressed a little displeasure about going to biglaw. This may just be their two personalities, but the impression I got is that after 4 years of respect, being an Officer, having large responsibilities, etc. neither wanted to be at the bottom rung again. If you think you won't have a problem doing that, that's one thing, but your mind might be a little different after 4 yrs of people saluting you.
Hope that helps.

[Haribo]

although it is a 4 yr commitment, there is also an additional 4 yrs in "inactive" status, which means you can be recalled if something goes down. With the way things are headed in Iran/Syria/North Korea/China it might not be that long of a shot that you actually end up with 8 years in, not 4.

Ok, anything is possible, but it's a HUGE long shot that people will get called off of inactive reserve in the next few years, particularly in the AF or Navy. The Air Force is actually letting people leave their commitments early because they over-recruited. Especially with a new president, pretty much the only way a lawyer is going to get called back from inactive reserve is if a major country invades the US.

[Aeneas]

I'm in the middle of applying for the Navy JAG as well, (2L)

I'm just wondering if you could give me some insight into your thought process? For example, why do you want to do JAG? What do you think you'll get out of it? What makes you think it's worth it? How long do you plan to do it?

[MNlawdog]

I come from a Navy family, so I've always wanted to serve as a naval officer. Legally, it's hard to beat - not many places to do criminal AND civil law, getting to jump right in, and switch jobs and locations every 2-3 years. The pay/benefits are nice enough - I'm not looking for 100 hrs/week and $200k. Travel is a plus, and getting to wear a uniform a big plus too. As far as time goes, I think my ideal would be 8-10 years. Enough time to get up to LCDR, maybe go get an LLM at some point, and do sea or abroad duty. Talking to the Captain I interviewed with, he said about 50% of JAGs stop after their 4, and 50% stay on - so I don't think a strong feeling either way is necessary.

[Aeneas]

I come from a Navy family, so I've always wanted to serve as a naval officer. Legally, it's hard to beat - not many places to do criminal AND civil law, getting to jump right in, and switch jobs and locations every 2-3 years. The pay/benefits are nice enough - I'm not looking for 100 hrs/week and $200k. Travel is a plus, and getting to wear a uniform a big plus too. As far as time goes, I think my ideal would be 8-10 years. Enough time to get up to LCDR, maybe go get an LLM at some point, and do sea or abroad duty. Talking to the Captain I interviewed with, he said about 50% of JAGs stop after their 4, and 50% stay on - so I don't think a strong feeling either way is necessary.

Are you afraid of the debt you may incur from law school? I expect to have at least 100K or so; how would I go about dealing with that?

[MNlawdog]

Re: debt.
The College Savings Cost Reduction Act (or whatever the official title is) that passed in Oct. should help there. According to that Act, which I believe takes effect in 09, the most you are charged for federal repayment is 15% of your discretionary income per month. If you do public service (military included), they forgive the rest of your debt after 10 years. (otherwise 20).
I'm also going to come out with about 100k debt, but it's all federal loans, so the Act will make them a lot easier to pay off. If you have private loans, it might be tougher to make it work.

[Aeneas]

Let me ask you a Q: how do you feel about military service in general nowadays? Do you believe it is a noble thing to do? How do you feel America and its perspective on the service has changed in the last 50 years?

Sometimes I feel confused- I personally believe that service is a noble thing to do and sometimes I feel like every young man should do a 6 month commitment or something, but since I live in Los Angeles at other times I get the impression that when you say, "I'm in the military," other people just kind of shrug and say, "eh... blech."

Maybe that's just a product of where I've lived most of my life, I'm not really sure what the rest of America is like. My friend, who lives in Oklahoma, tells me that LA should *not* be considered a "normal" city- places like NY and CA are actually American "deviants," as it were.

[candlelight01]

Maybe that's just a product of where I've lived most of my life, I'm not really sure what the rest of America is like. My friend, who lives in Oklahoma, tells me that LA should *not* be considered a "normal" city- places like NY and CA are actually American "deviants," as it were.

Yes, indeed. Seemingly unbeknownst to those who live in LA and NY, there are about 3000 miles and 200 million people and untold stretches of wide open country between the two, all of which is worth experiencing. Perhaps bizarrely, many if not most of these strange people who populate these lands are quite content with never living in LA or NY and never having to deal with the pretentious attitudes of those who do. Perhaps these hinterlanders are just as content with the concept of "flyover" country as New Yorkers and LAers are, for almost the same reasons.

[hbb]

Now this purley anecdotal, but I think having a JAG background will help you, mainly because somebody else has trained you on how to practice law.

Bear in mind that this training will revolve around courts-martial conducted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice in most cases, which is highly specialized and not relevant to the majority of legal work you might be expected to perform working for a private firm or government agency outside of the military.

[Aeneas]

Maybe that's just a product of where I've lived most of my life, I'm not really sure what the rest of America is like. My friend, who lives in Oklahoma, tells me that LA should *not* be considered a "normal" city- places like NY and CA are actually American "deviants," as it were.

Yes, indeed. Seemingly unbeknownst to those who live in LA and NY, there are about 3000 miles and 200 million people and untold stretches of wide open country between the two, all of which is worth experiencing. Perhaps bizarrely, many if not most of these strange people who populate these lands are quite content with never living in LA or NY and never having to deal with the pretentious attitudes of those who do. Perhaps these hinterlanders are just as content with the concept of "flyover" country as New Yorkers and LAers are, for almost the same reasons.

I laughed because this is so true- you know sometimes I'm afraid that if I leave LA, my Amazon.com shipments might like never arrive or something! It's stupid but it's this weird feeling like you're in the middle of the known universe. I wonder if someday I'll live somewhere else!

[Patrick Bateman]

Now this purley anecdotal, but I think having a JAG background will help you, mainly because somebody else has trained you on how to practice law.

Bear in mind that this training will revolve around courts-martial conducted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice in most cases, which is highly specialized and not relevant to the majority of legal work you might be expected to perform working for a private firm or government agency outside of the military.

Consider the last two words of UCMJ: Military Justice. That is the only practice area that is confined by the rules of UCMJ (which are strikingly similar to the Federal Rules regardless); in short, prosecuting/defending courts-martial.

There are a ton of different practice areas in which JAGs practice.

[nipplehead]

how difficult is it to get a JAG job?

i'm interested in doing so as well, mainly because i just want to serve my country and all that lame patriotic shit. sounds stupid to some, but whatever.

let's say coming out of Columbia or Virginia, what % do you think you'd have to be to snag such a job?

[Aeneas]

how difficult is it to get a JAG job?

i'm interested in doing so as well, mainly because i just want to serve my country and all that lame patriotic shit. sounds stupid to some, but whatever.

let's say coming out of Columbia or Virginia, what % do you think you'd have to be to snag such a job?

from my research I understand that the Navy JAG, for instance, only accepts about 70 students direct commissioning into it per year. The competition is actually "quite keen," according to the Navy JAG website, especially since there are probably hundreds of people applying each year. Overall though I think that in general, everyone has a 20-25% chance of getting accepted. If you think about it, that's not so bad! Imagine having a 25% chance of getting into Yale law or something- not bad at all! It's not easy though, and they appear to take a very holistic and whole-person approach to their process, which means that you'll find guys from Harvard to Cooley in there. Obviously, finishing well at a top school is great, but going to a lower ranked school does not seem to preclude anybody from being competitive for the JAG corp.

Nevertheless, applying can't hurt you, because it doesn't obligate you to anything, and plus, if they reject you, then you just go on and do whatever you want to. If they accept you, then you need to choose pretty quick whether or not that's what you want to do at the end of law school.

During law school, you talk to a recruiter, fill out the application, and wait. If the application is accepted, then basically you get to finish law school generally stress-free, because pretty much in your second/third year of law school you get commissioned as an inactive Ensign officer rank in the navy. But you don't have to train or do any work at all- all you do is accept it. It's not like ROTC or anything, because you don't have to do any military related stuff. As far as I understand, even your summers are free- you can choose to work at a firm, or if you want you can work for the Navy JAG in the summers and be paid the salary of an Ensign. When you graduate and pass the bar, then you go to special training and all that stuff, and get promoted to Lieutenant Junior Grade and begin actual active duty. After 6-12 months, you're promoted to Lieutenant, where you serve the remainder of your 3-3 1/2 years of active duty.

If you don't want to apply during law school, that's fine too. You can actually go off and work at a firm and later try to apply through the Direct program. The problem is that then it's SUPER competitive and they only take like 3-5 people a year, so it's better to try to get in as a Student.

I'm PRETTY sure from all my research that this stuff is accurate but anybody please correct me, I could be missing the target somewhere.

[nipplehead]

so you apply during 1L year? is it possible to apply later, as a 2L or a 3L?

what i thought was cool about the Navy JAG position (reading the link provided on the first page) was that only about 70 JAGs are sent to Iraq out of 750, and the site implied that all of those are volunteers only. i don't really want to end up in Iraq; i'd go if i had to, but i'd prefer to serve my team doing trials in a courtroom, not a battlefield.

[Aeneas]

so you apply during 1L year? is it possible to apply later, as a 2L or a 3L?

what i thought was cool about the Navy JAG position (reading the link provided on the first page) was that only about 70 JAGs are sent to Iraq out of 750, and the site implied that all of those are volunteers only. i don't really want to end up in Iraq; i'd go if i had to, but i'd prefer to serve my team doing trials in a courtroom, not a battlefield.

BTW I edited my earlier post a tad, in case you were interested.

As for your question, this is how it seems to work:

you need to FINISH your total first year of law school. once you have all the grades from the entire first year, you can go talk to a recruiter and fill out the application. Whether that's in the 1L summer or not I'm not sure but it's approximately either there or at the beginning of 2L. However, if you want to put it off, you can do that too and wait until 2L summer/ 3L and apply then. Doesn't really seem to make a difference. Although I'm guessing (just a guess) that if your 2L app is rejected you can always try again next year. Not sure if that's true though.

There MAY be slight pay-grade differences depending on if you accepted the stuff in 2L or 3L but it doesn't seem to make a real marked difference or anything. You still get the same rank and the same pay sooner or later.

[Aeneas]

And also, it's worth noting that you serve 4 years of active duty and then 4 years of inactive reserve afterwards, which could interfere with a civilian career if the world starts to end and collapse on itself.

Anyhow, I personally am kind of torn between trying and not trying. I think it's worth just applying, but sometimes I think of all the money I will be giving up for those first 4 years! But then I ask myself if being someone's glorified secretary doing document review for 4 years and $150K is really the life I want as opposed to [what seems like] "Tintin Goes to Law School"

[Patrick Bateman]

so you apply during 1L year? is it possible to apply later, as a 2L or a 3L?

what i thought was cool about the Navy JAG position (reading the link provided on the first page) was that only about 70 JAGs are sent to Iraq out of 750, and the site implied that all of those are volunteers only. i don't really want to end up in Iraq; i'd go if i had to, but i'd prefer to serve my team doing trials in a courtroom, not a battlefield.

Applying as 3L involves the Direct Appointment Program (DA/DAP). If accepted, you are automatically awarded your commission (directly appointed as a 1st Lt/Lt Junior Grade) once you graduate and pass the bar.

I know Air Force JAG only accepts 7%-9% of applicants for Direct Appointments each year. DAs make up the vast majority of the active duty Judge Advocates for the AF. The rest are filled in by the OYCP (law school ROTC) or active duty guys in the FLEP/ELP programs.

[nipplehead]

how did you apply, Patrick? as a 3L?

[Patrick Bateman]

I was part of the civilian law clerk program during my 2L summer and then applied with the Direct Appointment board in August of my 3L. I was accepted and will start my Commissioned Officer's Training in either Oct 2008/Jan 2009 depending when I get my bar results.

That is another difference between AF and Navy JAG: the AF has multiple accession (hiring) boards throughout the year whereas I believe the Navy only has one giant one in May.

[casper13]

I just read that if i were to become a JAG after law school ill get a direct commision as a Major. If i go to reserve route. I can still retire in 10 years after that. Wonder if I could go reserve get major then go active. That would be nuts

[MNlawdog]

That is another difference between AF and Navy JAG: the AF has multiple accession (hiring) boards throughout the year whereas I believe the Navy only has one giant one in May.

This part isn't accurate; there are three-four boards for the student program per year. March, May, August, October last year. Earlier acceptance is also a little better, because you have a better chance of being stationed where you want to be. (Of course, still no guarantee - but the Capt. I interviewed with said there is no problem going to the big bases, Seattle, San Diego, DC, Norfolk, and Groton).
As for acceptance rates, generally 20-25% is right, but I heard that lately it's been a little lower, in the neighborhood of 15%.

[Patrick Bateman]

That is another difference between AF and Navy JAG: the AF has multiple accession (hiring) boards throughout the year whereas I believe the Navy only has one giant one in May.

This part isn't accurate; there are three-four boards for the student program per year. March, May, August, October last year. Earlier acceptance is also a little better, because you have a better chance of being stationed where you want to be. (Of course, still no guarantee - but the Capt. I interviewed with said there is no problem going to the big bases, Seattle, San Diego, DC, Norfolk, and Groton).
As for acceptance rates, generally 20-25% is right, but I heard that lately it's been a little lower, in the neighborhood of 15%.

"5. Application Procedure. A selection board meets once annually and its application deadline is the first Friday in June of each year. Application materials, instructions, and deadlines are available on the Careers section of our website. Please contact the JAG Corps Accessions Detailer (PERS 4416E)."

--LinkRemoved--

[CaptainDirtyBird]

and that you have selected to suspend your personal ethics and ability to make rational decisions until your time is done.

As opposed to Biglaw where your personal ethics and rational decisions as a junior associate make a huge impact on the direction of the firm?

I thought it was a given that your ethics are sold as a junior associate

[Upgrayedd]

I know one ex-Jag, and he is a prosecutor in a gang unit.

I can see the Jag degree being directly applicable to working for the government or becoming a defense lawyer. I really doubt however that it will increase your chances of working in a corporate firm. You don't learn anything appicable, and the fact that you've been removed from the corporate law world so long is not likely to help you.

Sounds like you're really into it though... why not just write an email to the JAG program asking these questions?