deletd Forum

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

If a student came on here and said that its his goal to practice family law in his hometown somewhere in South Carolina, you really think we would be urging him toward huge debt at a T14 school, assuming that was a possibility for the kid?

good points

[BigZuck]

The elitist thing gets thrown around CONSTANTLY and I don't think I've ever seen one poster actually back up what they mean by that.

I mean, you can probably pull a random post and see El Pollito call Michigan a regional school. There might be someone who will say that they don't think anything not T14 (T13, T10, T6) is worth it (which usually is just a reflection of their own career goals and/or the cost of law school). But this unending stream of elitism that is supposedly such a huge problem? I don't think anyone has ever given any evidence that that is an actual thing that actually exists.

So basically the OP is farting into the wind like so many wind farters before him

[thesealocust]

The problem is the proliferation of shitty law schools gorging themselves on federally-funded non-dischargable loan money. The massive oversupply of lawyers has had ruinous effects across the profession, and the 'elitism' of TLS is nothing more than a collective self-preservation instinct.

[shump92]

The elitist thing gets thrown around CONSTANTLY and I don't think I've ever seen one poster actually back up what they mean by that.

I mean, you can probably pull a random post and see El Pollito call Michigan a regional school. There might be someone who will say that they don't think anything not T14 (T13, T10, T6) is worth it (which usually is just a reflection of their own career goals and/or the cost of law school). But this unending stream of elitism that is supposedly such a huge problem? I don't think anyone has ever given any evidence that that is an actual thing that actually exists.

So basically the OP is farting into the wind like so many wind farters before him

First, I'll acknowledge that I am probably elitist more than I try to be. As far as that claim goes, I think the joke at the end of the first page about the email is a good example of elitism that is common on TLS. It's more belittling certain accomplishments without much thought that brings the thought of elitism to mind.

I'm not saying that this sentiment is inherently bad, but not everyone can score 168 (or insert other high score here)+ or get into top schools. Just because some of those things might be easier for a lot of posters doesn't mean that they have to say those "aren't accomplishments". Those types of posts are relatively common, but that issue probably relates more to what the website itself is. Besides those jokes or like statements, I agree with you.

[Ron Howard]

At times I think that TLS can be harmful, but overall it does more good than harm. Many students to whom this site gives advice are, to put it lightly, quite naive about the nature of law school at various tiers and of the legal profession. We help to change this by detailing the employment prospects of law schools and by giving insight into actual practice. Few sources, on the internet and in the real world, offer advice that is not horribly outdated. We solve this problem by the virtue of our youth, and by our close proximity both to the application process and to entry level employment. And finally many other sources of law school information, including many law school admissions offices, do not really care about the individuals to whom they are giving information. We do care because we often see a bit of our former selves in those who seek help, and we want to do good.

Yet, as I have detailed before, the "methods in which this advice giving occurs are often ill conceived", and, "Sarcastic, demeaning, and fear-mongering posts, while in most [cases] on the right side of reality, are often damaging. In some few cases they disturb some select readers. In others they reduce the credibly of this site" (Howard). From this you may deduce that I am discussing a certain elitism that permeates this site. But, in most cases, this elitism is not manifested as much in the content of posts, as it is in the tone of them. The problem with this site, in other words, lies in the way that the advice is given, not in the advice itself.

References

Howard, Ron, 2015, "A Message to Incoming T-14 Students", Law School Admissions Forum, Top-Law-Schools.

[Desert Fox]

[BigZuck]

The elitist thing gets thrown around CONSTANTLY and I don't think I've ever seen one poster actually back up what they mean by that.

I mean, you can probably pull a random post and see El Pollito call Michigan a regional school. There might be someone who will say that they don't think anything not T14 (T13, T10, T6) is worth it (which usually is just a reflection of their own career goals and/or the cost of law school). But this unending stream of elitism that is supposedly such a huge problem? I don't think anyone has ever given any evidence that that is an actual thing that actually exists.

So basically the OP is farting into the wind like so many wind farters before him

First, I'll acknowledge that I am probably elitist more than I try to be. As far as that claim goes, I think the joke at the end of the first page about the email is a good example of elitism that is common on TLS. It's more belittling certain accomplishments without much thought that brings the thought of elitism to mind.

I'm not saying that this sentiment is inherently bad, but not everyone can score 168 (or insert other high score here)+ or get into top schools. Just because some of those things might be easier for a lot of posters doesn't mean that they have to say those "aren't accomplishments". Those types of posts are relatively common, but that issue probably relates more to what the website itself is. Besides those jokes or like statements, I agree with you.

What email joke are you talking about? I missed that.

Also- mods, please, if we are going to have this thread again can you at least ban Ron Howard from posting in it?

[Ron Howard]

Law was already elitist.

But TLS does sort of fuck over 0Ls by creating an arms race of application quality and LSAT scores.

I think you are a bit overstating the actual reach of this site. I do not think it probable that a significant portion of those individuals who read this site, and see someone in a similar situation being told to retake, actually take the advice for themselves. In reality, they probably just think that their situation is different enough and themselves special enough that the advice does not apply.

[shump92]

The elitist thing gets thrown around CONSTANTLY and I don't think I've ever seen one poster actually back up what they mean by that.

I mean, you can probably pull a random post and see El Pollito call Michigan a regional school. There might be someone who will say that they don't think anything not T14 (T13, T10, T6) is worth it (which usually is just a reflection of their own career goals and/or the cost of law school). But this unending stream of elitism that is supposedly such a huge problem? I don't think anyone has ever given any evidence that that is an actual thing that actually exists.

So basically the OP is farting into the wind like so many wind farters before him

First, I'll acknowledge that I am probably elitist more than I try to be. As far as that claim goes, I think the joke at the end of the first page about the email is a good example of elitism that is common on TLS. It's more belittling certain accomplishments without much thought that brings the thought of elitism to mind.

I'm not saying that this sentiment is inherently bad, but not everyone can score 168 (or insert other high score here)+ or get into top schools. Just because some of those things might be easier for a lot of posters doesn't mean that they have to say those "aren't accomplishments". Those types of posts are relatively common, but that issue probably relates more to what the website itself is. Besides those jokes or like statements, I agree with you.

What email joke are you talking about? I missed that.

Also- mods, please, if we are going to have this thread again can you at least ban Ron Howard from posting in it?

But instead, Megan Schade, Esq. informed you that you may qualify for admission and a full tuition scholarship per year to your namesake, so you couldn't turn it down. Thank you, TLS./quote

Pretty sure that the poster referenced actually ended up in the T14 based on my browsing of other threads. I'm sure when some people get those CRS emails about scholarship opportunities, it's actually a big deal to them since their stats are not amazing. So I'm not even saying that the bashing of those adcomms may not be warranted, but that the "not being able to turn it down" is too far.

[BigZuck]

Can't even make fun of Florida Coastal anymore

Obama's America, ladies and gentlemen

[Ron Howard]

I am simply contributing to this thread as you are, Zuck. But if it really means that much to you, say the word and I will restrain my self from continuing to post in this thread.

[RaceJudicata]

In reality, they probably just think that their situation is different enough and themselves special enough that the advice does not apply.

"Special enough that advice does not apply." No truer words have been spoken. Many of us - including myself - react to accurate information by dismissing it, and saying ya, but I'm great and can overcome that reality. This applies to Admissions, job search, clerkships, etc.

[ManoftheHour]

No.
/thread

[lymenheimer]

But instead, Megan Schade, Esq. informed you that you may qualify for admission and a full tuition scholarship per year to your namesake, so you couldn't turn it down. Thank you, TLS./quote

Pretty sure that the poster referenced actually ended up in the T14 based on my browsing of other threads. I'm sure when some people get those CRS emails about scholarship opportunities, it's actually a big deal to them since their stats are not amazing. So I'm not even saying that the bashing of those adcomms may not be warranted, but that the "not being able to turn it down" is too far.

Yes, he went back and edited his comment to reflect his actual accomplishments (T14 status). I was simply making light of his name "FloridaCoastalorbust" and the fact that I just received one of the aforementioned emails from the honorable lady.

[shump92]

But instead, Megan Schade, Esq. informed you that you may qualify for admission and a full tuition scholarship per year to your namesake, so you couldn't turn it down. Thank you, TLS./quote

Pretty sure that the poster referenced actually ended up in the T14 based on my browsing of other threads. I'm sure when some people get those CRS emails about scholarship opportunities, it's actually a big deal to them since their stats are not amazing. So I'm not even saying that the bashing of those adcomms may not be warranted, but that the "not being able to turn it down" is too far.

Yes, he went back and edited his comment to reflect his actual accomplishments (T14 status). I was simply making light of his name "FloridaCoastalorbust" and the fact that I just received one of the aforementioned emails from the honorable lady.

You're good. That just happened to be an example for my point. I appreciate the response though.

[Kinky John]

Pretty sure that the poster referenced actually ended up in the T14 based on my browsing creeping of other threads.

[Johann]

It's definitely a good thing having a collection of knowledge. However, certain knowledge bases are better than others, and you should always take a grain of salt for people understanding your specific situation.

I'm sure there are definitely some decent LSAT study guides and law school success guides, though I haven't really read them so can't attest.

The interview thread by itbdvorm is probably the best thread on this site. And the loan financing thread is pretty solid with lots of healthy debate.

The main areas where TLS knowledge is lacking:
1) Failure to consider PAYE and PSLF when advising people about law school. A risk benefit analysis without those factors is worthless.
2) Everyone talks about TTTs on here without really understanding them or knowing what the employment is actually like and the type of people that attend those schools. Citing LST is fine, but to pretend to know what kind of chance a TTT gives you to become a lawyer (lotso f people self select out of firm jobs and even legal jobs completely and prefer to work for big corporations as an office monkey etc), how competitive they are to get good grades, the reality of the transfer market completely changing in the last 6 years, etc.
3) When people start should I go to law school threads, nobody actually considers what that person's alternative option. Some people with money to CCN should not go to CCN. Some people should pay sticker to Loyola. If you can't imagine scenarios where this happens, you probably shouldn't be giving life altering advice to someone. Whether or not law school is a good option depends on the person's background, degree, future career without the degree, etc.
4) People on this board are really really risk averse and use their risk aversion to paint things in the black and white, when really everything is gray. Law degrees can be used for lots of different things within the law industry (solo, biglaw, ticket to government, take over family business) and outside the industry (JD advantage is a very real thing now and this board doesn't really understand that there are JD advantage jobs paying more than AmLaw 500 jobs in non major markets - and hell even in major markets very rarely, but much more common in the smaller markets).
5) People on this board are very short sighted in evaluating a lifetime investment. I graduated years ago and I still think it's too early for me to evaluate whether law school and the degree was worth it for me and my peers. I'm sure plenty of people called their coworkers idiots in 1990 for buying Apple stock with their retirement accounts. Even in 2000, 10 years later the stock was still looking very average. There is really no way to know how this all will play out depending on the governments and regulations that come to be, loan forgiveness programs, etc)

Overall, TLS is very bad, even to the point of detriment, at advising specific individuals whether law school is right for them based on their personal circumstances, especially when it comes to non-traditional applicants. Most of the people on this board that give advice still haven't even graduated law school, so LOL at them really knowing anything more than LST (save some areas mentioned above like scholly negotiation and lsat prep).

[to116]

I got almost all of my information about studying for the lsat/ law schools and what they are looking for from this site and it ended up being completely accurate. The career counselors at my undergrad were totally clueless by comparison and if i had listened to them, I definitely would have had a much worse outcome. It seems like a lot of the people who post on here just genuinely want to give back and I'm really appreciative of that.

[lymenheimer]

You're good. That just happened to be an example for my point. I appreciate the response though.

Just wanted to make sure my purpose wasn't misinterpreted by other readers. But I'm glad I could be of service for your example

[Orlandipo]

Yet, as I have detailed before, the "methods in which this advice giving occurs are often ill conceived", and, "Sarcastic, demeaning, and fear-mongering posts, while in most [cases] on the right side of reality, are often damaging. In some few cases they disturb some select readers. In others they reduce the credibly of this site" (Howard). From this you may deduce that I am discussing a certain elitism that permeates this site. But, in most cases, this elitism is not manifested as much in the content of posts, as it is in the tone of them. The problem with this site, in other words, lies in the way that the advice is given, not in the advice itself.

You should probably just be more sympathetic to the knowledgeable megapoasters and how exhausting it can be for them to give good faith explanations to the droves of idiots that regularly filter through this site.

[KMart]

Is Ron Howard an alt?

[BigZuck]

It's definitely a good thing having a collection of knowledge. However, certain knowledge bases are better than others, and you should always take a grain of salt for people understanding your specific situation.

I'm sure there are definitely some decent LSAT study guides and law school success guides, though I haven't really read them so can't attest.

The interview thread by itbdvorm is probably the best thread on this site. And the loan financing thread is pretty solid with lots of healthy debate.

The main areas where TLS knowledge is lacking:
1) Failure to consider PAYE and PSLF when advising people about law school. A risk benefit analysis without those factors is worthless.
2) Everyone talks about TTTs on here without really understanding them or knowing what the employment is actually like and the type of people that attend those schools. Citing LST is fine, but to pretend to know what kind of chance a TTT gives you to become a lawyer (lotso f people self select out of firm jobs and even legal jobs completely and prefer to work for big corporations as an office monkey etc), how competitive they are to get good grades, the reality of the transfer market completely changing in the last 6 years, etc.
3) When people start should I go to law school threads, nobody actually considers what that person's alternative option. Some people with money to CCN should not go to CCN. Some people should pay sticker to Loyola. If you can't imagine scenarios where this happens, you probably shouldn't be giving life altering advice to someone. Whether or not law school is a good option depends on the person's background, degree, future career without the degree, etc.
4) People on this board are really really risk averse and use their risk aversion to paint things in the black and white, when really everything is gray. Law degrees can be used for lots of different things within the law industry (solo, biglaw, ticket to government, take over family business) and outside the industry (JD advantage is a very real thing now and this board doesn't really understand that there are JD advantage jobs paying more than AmLaw 500 jobs in non major markets - and hell even in major markets very rarely, but much more common in the smaller markets).
5) People on this board are very short sighted in evaluating a lifetime investment. I graduated years ago and I still think it's too early for me to evaluate whether law school and the degree was worth it for me and my peers. I'm sure plenty of people called their coworkers idiots in 1990 for buying Apple stock with their retirement accounts. Even in 2000, 10 years later the stock was still looking very average. There is really no way to know how this all will play out depending on the governments and regulations that come to be, loan forgiveness programs, etc)

Overall, TLS is very bad, even to the point of detriment, at advising specific individuals whether law school is right for them based on their personal circumstances, especially when it comes to non-traditional applicants. Most of the people on this board that give advice still haven't even graduated law school, so LOL at them really knowing anything more than LST (save some areas mentioned above like scholly negotiation and lsat prep).

No one should pay sticker at Loyola though

[TheodoreKGB]

.

[03152016]

ya tls is p bad
i remember this one dude saying that divorce lawyers who hang a shingle make $300k in their third year

[krads153]

I don't think it's generally "bad" but I don't think enough practicing attorneys post on here. A lot of the advice is given by 0Ls or law students who have never worked in law, yet they are commenting on hiring in biglaw/public interest, etc. Also I don't think they understand what it means to have DEBT enough and they also don't understand that rankings don't really matter on such a specific scale (like within the T-14 - the "tiers") as they think. I think some stuff ("tiers" or whatever) are magnified to an nth degree on here when it shouldn't be, and also the financial advice given on here is kind of crappy.

It also amuses me when people "plan" on X number of years in biglaw, etc. to pay off loans when it's really not guaranteed. So again, goes back to the bad financial advice.