Making the Most of Tiers 3/4 Forum

[LurkerNoMore]

Do you want to stay in West Virginia?

If so, ignore most of the "advice" you have been given. Going in state when you want to work for the local DA's office is a completely reasonable path to take. The big problem will be debt -- though IBR will help if you are successful in working for the gov't.

The thing that does standout is that you didn't seem to follow any particular method of study for the LSAT. The LSAT is a test that can be gamed and scoring in the 150s means that you can raise your score considerably by learning some of the tricks of the trade. With a higher score you will get more money, and more money means less pressure and more options when you graduate. I would highly recommend taking a year off to see if you can get your LSAT raised -- it could be worth a year's salary or more.

If you do attend a school in WV, I would recommend that you join the student bar association as soon as possible. Also look into the Inns of Court. Attend CLE courses in the area (usually made available to student bar members at a discount rate). Speak to local attorneys as often as possible. Mock Trial would be an on campus activity you would want to look into. See if your school has any extern programs with the local DA's office or USAO. Look into summer internships with those offices or local judges (including state and federal judges in WV) for your 1L summer. Focus on making connections outside of school as soon as possible, preferably in ways that will allow these people to see the quality of your work.

If you want to stay local, there is no problem with going to a local school -- you just need to make sure that you are doing the things from day 1 that will put yourself in the best position upon graduation (and that includes minimizing your debt).

Good luck!

[homestyle28]

I'm going to echo what some of the above posters have said. If you want to stay in WV or OH, WVU or Dayton is a fine choice. Here's what I would suggest: Investigate who the DAs or county prosecutors are near you, then look to see where they went to school, where the assistant prosecutors went to school, etc.

I live in SE Ohio, All but one of our prosecutors are tier 3/4 folks. The only tier-1's in town are here for other reasons. My point is that it matters as much where you want to work as the kind you'd like to do. If you have your heart set on being a fed prosecutor or big city DA, then yeah, you probably do need to upgrade your schools, if not go to the t3/4 and work hard.

In my opinion, if you opt for the changing schools route, I'd seriously think about sitting this year out and trying to up the LSAT. It seems like there is a lot less scholarship money available for transfer students than for new students. Get your LSAT up to mid 160's and you can get some cash at some tier-1's.

[gdh]

This post is about seizing opportunities and having realistic goals based on the cards you're dealt.

I think the predominant opinion on this board (especially right now during hiring freezes for many law firms) is that only those best suited to be lawyers should commit themselves to law school, thus the T14 talk. If you realistically think the LSAT does not accurately measure how good of a lawyer you will be, go for T3/T4, but don't be shocked if you don't make it. Law school is not college, it's a completely different style of learning, and the grading measures for most classes resemble the environment of the LSAT (one test, 3 hours).

That being said, I think you are at least realistic about where you would want to go afterwards and about the incredible challenge it presents, so good luck.

Well, scholarship in hand and not much to lose, there is only one way to find out. I'm quite excited to sell my soul to LS. Thank you!

In light of the T14 J.D. or NO J.D. attitude, believe it or not, some of us (including a fraction of the very best students) are motivated by the potential differences we can make in our communities/states as opposed to the $ almighty dollar $. Therefore, especially with scholarships, why NOT attend T3/T4 schools? After all, some "unfortunate" T3/T4 grad has to ensure the violent criminals are kept off our streets. Otherwise, how will our T1/T2 big shots safely make it to their BMWs at 1 am when they get off work at their respective law firm?

You know, I've seen this thought process before and it never ceases to amaze me. You are trying to justify the mediocrity of attending a T3/T4 school by claiming that your desire to make a difference in the community is met (arguably best met) by choosing those schools. Further implied is that most T1/T2 students 1) do not care about their community and 2) are solely motivated by money. Has the thought not occured to you that perhaps by going to a T1/T2 school you could get a better education than at a T3/T4 school thus enabling you to affect an even greater difference in your community? It is funny because your justification for attending a T3/T4 school (wanting to make an impact in the community) is directly contradicted or at least lessened by attending a T3/T4 school (in that the education you receive is of bottom rung quality). Furthermore if you go to bad enough of a law school, your education, or lact thereof could actually make you a liability to the community (in that you screw up in trial and the criminals get off). Just some food for thought...

[wakefield]

This post is about seizing opportunities and having realistic goals based on the cards you're dealt.

I think the predominant opinion on this board (especially right now during hiring freezes for many law firms) is that only those best suited to be lawyers should commit themselves to law school, thus the T14 talk. If you realistically think the LSAT does not accurately measure how good of a lawyer you will be, go for T3/T4, but don't be shocked if you don't make it. Law school is not college, it's a completely different style of learning, and the grading measures for most classes resemble the environment of the LSAT (one test, 3 hours).

That being said, I think you are at least realistic about where you would want to go afterwards and about the incredible challenge it presents, so good luck.

Well, scholarship in hand and not much to lose, there is only one way to find out. I'm quite excited to sell my soul to LS. Thank you!

In light of the T14 J.D. or NO J.D. attitude, believe it or not, some of us (including a fraction of the very best students) are motivated by the potential differences we can make in our communities/states as opposed to the $ almighty dollar $. Therefore, especially with scholarships, why NOT attend T3/T4 schools? After all, some "unfortunate" T3/T4 grad has to ensure the violent criminals are kept off our streets. Otherwise, how will our T1/T2 big shots safely make it to their BMWs at 1 am when they get off work at their respective law firm?

Some of us are also interested in gov or public interest work and are going to a T14 or T1. In this economy, you can count on competition coming from better ranked schools and "the very best students" no matter what kind of job you're looking for. If you think every single person attending a top law school is gunning for biglaw, think again. You may manage to work your way into the top 5%, but don't be surprised if you're up against a top 5% student from a T1 school.

I understand where you're coming from, because I'm also considering a local T3/4 school. Just don't make the mistake of assuming you'll be all set if you graduate at the top of your class.

[Cole S. Law]

My advice:

Go to a school with extensive externship programs. Then do every criminal law externship. Public defender, prosecutor, USAO, Federal Public defender. Ask a respected judge where you want to work for an internship. A judge (esp. one that is a former prosecutor) can give you a total hookup. Most can pick up the phone and find you a job in a half an hour if they want to. Contrary to what the uninformed masses will tell you, big city DA offices are not filled with Harvard diplomas. Smaller offices most definitely are not. I have researched this carefully and I can assure you that outside New York City, presitigious degrees are the rare exception at most DAs offices. They want to see: 1. Good grades(perfect not needed) 2. A strongly demonstrated committment to Crim law. Personal connections are huge. If your targeted prosecutor is up for reelection, volunteer on his/her campaign. Call ADA alumni from your school and ask them to lunch. 9/10 times they will say yes. I've been seen in the DA's office so many times that the senior trial counsel thought that I already worked there. When it comes time for me to apply for a job, there will be little doubt. It definitely pays to go to school where you want to practice.

[MTal]

LOL holy shit, this video is right on point with this thread.

--LinkRemoved--

[Cole S. Law]

LOL holy shit, this video is right on point with this thread.

--LinkRemoved--

How's peddling mutual funds working out?

[MTal]

LOL holy shit, this video is right on point with this thread.

--LinkRemoved--

How's peddling mutual funds working out?

If you think that's all I do, you would be sadly mistaken. As for my job, it's going quite well, thank you for asking. I have an excellent salary with full benefits, little debt, and great potential for upward mobility. I am very happy with where I am right now.

[Mr. Matlock]

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[Snooker]

Law is an extremely prestige oriented field, so school and grades matter a lot here, whereas in other fields it's largely irrelevant. Posters on this board will tell you that if faced between going to a T10 school and a rank 50s school, you should go to the top ranked school. Why? It's not because the education is better. In fact, all the evidence indicates lower ranked schools provide better instructional quality than the scholar-ship oriented higher ranked schools. The main reason is because the higher ranked school is more prestigious. A Columbia degree would typically get 90% of the class a prime job, whereas a rank 50s school would have to settle for top 25%. But your LSAT/GPA only predicts 60% of your grade. Lower school means less prestige. Fortunately for you, the LSAT has only a 2% qualification with actual lawyering skills (producing memos, oral advocacy, negotiation etc.) so when you graduate, you will probably be more qualified than a Harvard graduate. (at least your T3 moot court team will cream the crap out of Harvard) (Caveat, I am doing well at a top school, above the GPA cutoff for all OCI at my school)

Is the way legal employers select recruits rational, does it make sense? There are plenty of justifications out there, but in the end legal professionals are poor decision makers. (the only compelling justification I know of is that firms have such little information about graduates, but that doesn't fully explain it) Economists studying lawyers can't help but chuckle at the way we do things. We're trained to litigate cases, not make smart economic decisions. We're willing to throw 160k at kids with no real professional skills simply because they got a high score on a test that doesn't measure professional aptitude and/or got good grades, which only slightly predict professional success. The clients themselves are willing to pay several hundred thousand a year in legal fees for this group of basically kids.

None of it is terribly logical at all, but that's how the legal culture works.

[A'nold]

The advice in this thread is purely mindboggling.

Hello? I know many of you are spewing conventional wisdow, but....uh......you look absolutely idiotic. Post about what you know you guys.

OP: Do NOT go outside of WV for any school less than a monster regional in your general area OR a national school. If you want to work in freaking WV in local government, got a scholarship and have in-state tuition, go to freaking WVU law. The ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding. The end.

[NotMyRealName09]

This place is full of people who love the smell of their own T1/T2 farts, but aren't admitting that the best job they can land after graduating in the 60th percentile is with a small local practitioner.

That said - go to the best school you can. Do as well as you can. Hope fate smiles on you. Expect to make $50,000 a year, and be ecstatic when / if you do better than that.

"Prestige" matters only to the 3% of insular douchebags who wouldn't dream of affiliating with anyone outside of T14.

Of course they all work together, and pat each other on the back and tell each other how wonderful they are as they give mutual reacharounds. Its no surprise they look down their noses at anyone who isn't them. Sure, the "top" law firms only hire those people, and attract supremely rich clients, but there is simply a shit ton of legal work in the world, and you can make a six-figure living working for clients who didn't happen to go to Yale. Maybe not 160k, but that 160k comes with several strings attached, and you'll end up with a much wider anus.

Don't let the "prestige" douchebags infect you with their myopic world view. The VAST majority of happy and successful legal practitioners did NOT go to a t14. The law is egalitarian - Skadden is not.

[gregw8705]

The advice in this thread is purely mindboggling.

Hello? I know many of you are spewing conventional wisdow, but....uh......you look absolutely idiotic. Post about what you know you guys.

OP: Do NOT go outside of WV for any school less than a monster regional in your general area OR a national school. If you want to work in freaking WV in local government, got a scholarship and have in-state tuition, go to freaking WVU law. The ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding. The end.

I think the point of the advice was to try and get into that monster regional school or national school. It's not like she's moving to WV for the first time and will want to go to school there to establish regional ties.

OP might benefit from contacting her local DA or the DA in the type of city or county she'd like to work in and asking which schools they usually hire from and where they might recommend someone go to law school if they wanted to enter that area of the law in WV. That way, the DA can say, "Oh we love WVU grads" or "Pitt's the best school we recruit from" etc. and that can help guide the decision making process.

[A'nold]

The advice in this thread is purely mindboggling.

Hello? I know many of you are spewing conventional wisdow, but....uh......you look absolutely idiotic. Post about what you know you guys.

OP: Do NOT go outside of WV for any school less than a monster regional in your general area OR a national school. If you want to work in freaking WV in local government, got a scholarship and have in-state tuition, go to freaking WVU law. The ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding. The end.

I think the point of the advice was to try and get into that monster regional school or national school. It's not like she's moving to WV for the first time and will want to go to school there to establish regional ties.

OP might benefit from contacting her local DA or the DA in the type of city or county she'd like to work in and asking which schools they usually hire from and where they might recommend someone go to law school if they wanted to enter that area of the law in WV. That way, the DA can say, "Oh we love WVU grads" or "Pitt's the best school we recruit from" etc. and that can help guide the decision making process.

Not everyone can score a 170+, even if they put in years of study. This website is vastly skewed towards people that are very intelligent or grew up privileged enough to afford a good education in a stable home (note I say it is skewed, not EVERYONE is intelligent or grew up privileged). I know people at my school that will probably fail out at the end of the year. I have met people that have taken class after class of LSAT prep and could not even get a good enough score for the lowest of the t4 schools.
The point? OP wants to work in WV for the local government. Let's say she worked her butt off for a year and got her LSAT score up to a 165......where is she going to go? Maybe GW? Maybe, MAYBE WUSTL? Do you think she will be going "for free" like she will be at WVU? She could graduate from WVU, theoretically, with less than 40k in debt and have a MUCH better chance of landing an ADA job with a local county if she networks and does all of the things that the helpful posters have mentioned than if she attended, say, USC (a long shot of long shots) and racks up 200k in debt. Why on earth would she go anywhere but WVU if she is certain that she wants to be an ADA in WV? Go to a lesser ranked good regional school near WV you say? No scholly and W&L or WM = a CRAP TON of debt for job prospects in the area that she wants to work that are likely WORSE than graduating from WVU.....how does this make any sense you guys? Think about it.

And don't come in with the whole "options" argument. Some people, believe it or not, don't need or want options, they want to live in WV, NM, ME, MT, whatever and they want a simple life. People should be giving "advice" that actually helps the OP meet her goals, not our goals.

*steps down from soapbox*

[futurelawstudent10]

This post is about seizing opportunities and having realistic goals based on the cards you're dealt.

I think the predominant opinion on this board (especially right now during hiring freezes for many law firms) is that only those best suited to be lawyers should commit themselves to law school, thus the T14 talk. If you realistically think the LSAT does not accurately measure how good of a lawyer you will be, go for T3/T4, but don't be shocked if you don't make it. Law school is not college, it's a completely different style of learning, and the grading measures for most classes resemble the environment of the LSAT (one test, 3 hours).

That being said, I think you are at least realistic about where you would want to go afterwards and about the incredible challenge it presents, so good luck.

Well, scholarship in hand and not much to lose, there is only one way to find out. I'm quite excited to sell my soul to LS. Thank you!

In light of the T14 J.D. or NO J.D. attitude, believe it or not, some of us (including a fraction of the very best students) are motivated by the potential differences we can make in our communities/states as opposed to the $ almighty dollar $. Therefore, especially with scholarships, why NOT attend T3/T4 schools? After all, some "unfortunate" T3/T4 grad has to ensure the violent criminals are kept off our streets. Otherwise, how will our T1/T2 big shots safely make it to their BMWs at 1 am when they get off work at their respective law firm?

You know, I've seen this thought process before and it never ceases to amaze me. You are trying to justify the mediocrity of attending a T3/T4 school by claiming that your desire to make a difference in the community is met (arguably best met) by choosing those schools. Further implied is that most T1/T2 students 1) do not care about their community and 2) are solely motivated by money. Has the thought not occured to you that perhaps by going to a T1/T2 school you could get a better education than at a T3/T4 school thus enabling you to affect an even greater difference in your community? It is funny because your justification for attending a T3/T4 school (wanting to make an impact in the community) is directly contradicted or at least lessened by attending a T3/T4 school (in that the education you receive is of bottom rung quality). Furthermore if you go to bad enough of a law school, your education, or lact thereof could actually make you a liability to the community (in that you screw up in trial and the criminals get off). Just some food for thought...

Firstly, and obviously, who on this forum in his or her right mind would turn down a top school for a T3/T4? Seriously, who DOESN'T want the best?

My big point: Attending a regional T3/T4 school may not be the most "prestigious" opportunity, but one can most certainly receive a quality education/experience if the hard work is put in and valuable networking opportunities are taken advantage of. Especially if one wants to stay in his or her respective region.

I agree that a terrible lawyer can potentially cause more harm than good, obviously. However, this counselor can feasibly come out of any law school - not just the ones you're labeling as the "mediocre programs." Perhaps, an individual is hired solely due to his law school's reputation. This graduate may have felt he didn't need to work as hard, thus he passed with straight C's hoping to cash in on LS reputation. He most likely was able to pass exams due to his high genius level iq - the iq that resulted in the 175 LSAT score that got him accepted. This is absolutely not the description of the majority of top students, but it's still possible.

Finally, you feel I implied that all top students are motivated by money/don't care about their community. You're incorrect. I specifically said above that "some of us (including a fraction of the very best students) are motivated by the potential differences we can make in our communities/states as opposed to the $ almighty dollar $." Read b/w the parenthesis. I know there are some fine individuals, who will better our society, at top schools Yet, in light of the T14 or bust attitude of this forum, it seems that most of the individuals on TLS are out for $cash$ only. Maybe I'm incorrect, hopefully I am, but they can't seem to fathom making $50 - 70 grand per year as a graduate of a T3 school working for regional government. Even those offered scholarships blame debt as a sole deterrent. What debt? You have a scholarship! I think these individuals need to ask themselves a question: passion or rich lifestyle? You can't always have both.

[futurelawstudent10]

When you try to transfer, the schools you apply to won't look at your LSAT. They are going to look at how you performed during your 1L. You won't have an opportunity to make a better impression with just a higher LSAT.

How much preparation did you do before taking your LSAT? You seem to excuse your low score as a result of not being a good test taker. Most people who do well on the LSAT do a LOT of preparation, even if they are good test takers. My wife put in over 500 hours of preparation and brought her score up from the mid 150's to a 164 (and that was the low end of her practice scoring range near the end - she was scoring in the 168-170 on 7 of her last 10 practice tests). She also has a good GPA - 3.64, and as a result of her hard work on the LSAT prep she is going to a top 30 school.

She did everything to practice. She did all the bibles, many practice tests, went to a weekend prep class - and then realized she needed to do even more work because she still wasn't regularly above 160. She then enrolled in a longer 6 week course and put in hundreds of additional hours. That is the definition of dedication and hard work, and making that kind of effort to get a better LSAT score is your best shot to getting in a higher ranked school.

Take another year and kick that test's ass! Consider it a 'free' do-over. How many times do you get one of those in life?

It the smart thing to do.

Valuable advice. I should have put more time into it. I will consider taking a year off and working hard towards a better LSAT through a class. I was jaded by my husband who earned a 163 with no preparation. Darn genius...screwing up my perceptions.

[A'nold]

Ambien induced coma edit.......

[Mattalones]

If you're really as hard working and motivated as you claim, you would have gotten in to a better school.

Douchey!

[homestyle28]

LOL holy shit, this video is right on point with this thread.

--LinkRemoved--

How's peddling mutual funds working out?

If you think that's all I do, you would be sadly mistaken. As for my job, it's going quite well, thank you for asking. I have an excellent salary with full benefits, little debt, and great potential for upward mobility. I am very happy with where I am right now.

Because as any reader of Mtal can tell, that guy is happy! I would sure hate to seem him unhappy!

[snootles76]

At the risk of being flamed, I think I'll put my 2 cents in. I graduated in May 2009 from a T3/T4 school where I was offered a full scholarship. Graduated in the top 15% of my class and got a summer associate position at a mid-law (yes they exist) firm where the other students in my summer class were from MUCH higher ranked schools. I knew that I didn't want to go to NY/Chicago/LA and was going to stay in a secondary market to stay close to my family.

I'm currently a first year associate at the firm I summered at, making 100k+ and living a comfortable lifestyle as I have no student loans. Just know going in, that you'll need a higher rank than other students at other law schools to get your foot in the door. In my opinion, once you get your summer position, you're on equal footing to prove yourself. Frankly, I got an offer at the end of the summer when other summers who went to better schools didn't. Other posters on here will say that I'm the exception to the rule, but it DOES happen...

[wakefield]

At the risk of being flamed, I think I'll put my 2 cents in. I graduated in May 2009 from a T3/T4 school where I was offered a full scholarship. Graduated in the top 15% of my class and got a summer associate position at a mid-law (yes they exist) firm where the other students in my summer class were from MUCH higher ranked schools. I knew that I didn't want to go to NY/Chicago/LA and was going to stay in a secondary market to stay close to my family.

I'm currently a first year associate at the firm I summered at, making 100k+ and living a comfortable lifestyle as I have no student loans. Just know going in, that you'll need a higher rank than other students at other law schools to get your foot in the door. In my opinion, once you get your summer position, you're on equal footing to prove yourself. Frankly, I got an offer at the end of the summer when other summers who went to better schools didn't. Other posters on here will say that I'm the exception to the rule, but it DOES happen...

For me, the problem is that it's seemingly impossible to predict your LS grades/class rank. I don't want to go to a T3/T4 school and graduate at the median. If I'm going to graduate at the median, I'd rather be at a T14. It also makes me wonder if I'll be able to keep the awesome T3/T4 scholarship by staying in the top x%.

[snootles76]

At the risk of being flamed, I think I'll put my 2 cents in. I graduated in May 2009 from a T3/T4 school where I was offered a full scholarship. Graduated in the top 15% of my class and got a summer associate position at a mid-law (yes they exist) firm where the other students in my summer class were from MUCH higher ranked schools. I knew that I didn't want to go to NY/Chicago/LA and was going to stay in a secondary market to stay close to my family.

I'm currently a first year associate at the firm I summered at, making 100k+ and living a comfortable lifestyle as I have no student loans. Just know going in, that you'll need a higher rank than other students at other law schools to get your foot in the door. In my opinion, once you get your summer position, you're on equal footing to prove yourself. Frankly, I got an offer at the end of the summer when other summers who went to better schools didn't. Other posters on here will say that I'm the exception to the rule, but it DOES happen...

For me, the problem is that it's seemingly impossible to predict your LS grades/class rank. I don't want to go to a T3/T4 school and graduate at the median. If I'm going to graduate at the median, I'd rather be at a T14. It also makes me wonder if I'll be able to keep the awesome T3/T4 scholarship by staying in the top x%.

Definitely understandable. But I can only speak from my experience. Law school wasn't exactly hard. It's just alot of work. If you're intelligent, as it appears that most people on this site are, and are committed to putting in the hours necessary to do well -- then most likely you'll do well. Not to knock the students I went to school, as I was pleasantly surprised how many students at my "TTT" were VERY intelligent and went to Ivies for UG like me, but there were also the fair share of slackers as well. It made it a little easier to do well when everything is curved. Okay, back to billing hours.

[mjs92983]

It seems really odd that many people on here are, at the same time, confident of their brilliance and yet think that there is NO WAY to predict their LS rank. It would seem like if you're bright and work hard, got accepted to a great school, and then go to a 3rd tier that you should expect that you have a good chance at being near the top of your class.

[270910]

It seems really odd that many people on here are, at the same time, confident of their brilliance and yet think that there is NO WAY to predict their LS rank. It would seem like if you're bright and work hard, got accepted to a great school, and then go to a 3rd tier that you should expect that you have a good chance at being near the top of your class.

You do realize how fine the distinction between a candidate destined for the T14 and one who will never break the second tier can be, right? 5 LSAT questions and a bad semester does not mean all of the students wind up being mouthbreathing morons who could never pass for 'competition' to your brilliant, going-to-a-lower-tier-school-than-admitted-to self.

[summerstar]

PM'd ya