Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours? Forum

[dresden doll]

I work at a pretty well known firm on the west coast and the hours are no biggie compared to finance. I'm usually out of the office by six most days, and today was the first Saturday I've worked all summer, then again I am just a summer associate.

In my previous field I went months working 9-11pm, 6 days a week, I also made twice as much as I make now, but biglaw hours are definitely not that bad compared to other fields.

Outted as not working at Cravath.

Even at Cravath a summer could probably get away with that. We (summer associates in general) are basically useless, so if you were really good at looking busy, you could probably skate from my firm early a lot (and I work at a verifiable sweatshop).

Oh, I just happen to know a Cravath SA that has definitely been withstanding some serious torture. I do of course agree with the general proposition that summers don't usually suffer all that much.

[Renzo]

Oh, I just happen to know a Cravath SA that has definitely been withstanding some serious torture. I do of course agree with the general proposition that summers don't usually suffer all that much.

I agree it could happen with bad luck. On the other hand, I have a classmate that told me two weeks ago that she hadn't left the office before 9:30 once all summer. She's an idiot who does it to herself, and no one likes her.

[dresden doll]

Oh, I just happen to know a Cravath SA that has definitely been withstanding some serious torture. I do of course agree with the general proposition that summers don't usually suffer all that much.

I agree it could happen with bad luck. On the other hand, I have a classmate that told me two weeks ago that she hadn't left the office before 9:30 once all summer. She's an idiot who does it to herself, and no one likes her.

She just wants to let you know how awesomely hardworking she is, kind of like our buddy ilItuneChi here.

[swfangirl]

Maybe I just have kept true to my roots unlike her but I count my blessings that I have the opportunities currently afforded to me by my law school education.

Working long hours in an air conditioned office reading and writing (even if they are mundane and boring) is alot sweeter than 99.999% of other jobs in the world. Sure it would be cooler to be a big time pro athlete, movie actor, or heir to the British crown. But instead of pitying my life by comparing myself to the few people on the planet who make more while working less, I just count my blessings that I'm doing better than 99.9% of humanity.

Thats the perspective that coming from a humble background brings. Unlike the spoiled brat perspective that runs rampant among biglaw associates who believe they are owed a 6 figure salary.

Can't be sure, but I remember talking like this around the age of 13. Anyone else suspect this may be the summer project of a bored 7th/8th grader? (all emphasis mine...other than the "all caps" and the statistical hyperbole)

?

[thecilent]

wow

welcome to the real world buddy.....life's a b*tch

Maybe its just me but I don't like whiners. Whining gets us nowhere. If you can't stand biglaw then quit. If you aren't gonna quit then STFU....do your job.....and live on. We all know biglaw has drawbacks. That isn't the point articulated by people all time. People just use it as an excuse to vent.

Life is full of tradeoffs. It's not unreasonable to point out the drawbacks to something, even if has got good benefits.

You're arguing against a straw man argument of "oh poor me, I make 160K and I have to work for it" that nobody is asserting.

I think we all know by the now the drawbacks to biglaw.Someone doesn't get into this job without knowing what the job entails. If you haven't done your due diligence then you have only yourself to blame. If however you did your due diligence and still take a biglaw job then you have no right to complain. We all know the drawbacks so your not telling us anything we haven't heard already.

You realize that I'm not in biglaw (yet), right? I'm frankly undecided re: biglaw because I don't know enough about it to say. My only argument in this entire thread is that you're a douche for insensitively doubting dresden, and accusing people of things they haven't said. For example: You just accused me of being someone in biglaw whining about it and not appreciating it, when I'm actually an 0L, who never defended nor attacked biglaw at all.

ATL, it's pretty obvious he wasn''t accusing you of being in biglaw. Looks like he was just saying those things in general about people going into the profession
/whiteknighting

[dresden doll]

ATL, it's pretty obvious he wasn''t accusing you of being in biglaw. Looks like he was just saying those things in general about people going into the profession
/whiteknighting some dude i dont even know

Whether or not he was using you in a general sense is comparatively irrelevant. Her chief point to him still stands.

[thecilent]

ATL, it's pretty obvious he wasn''t accusing you of being in biglaw. Looks like he was just saying those things in general about people going into the profession
/whiteknighting some dude i dont even know

Whether or not he was using you in a general sense is comparatively irrelevant. Her chief point to him still stands.

Well then there should be a new "For example:"

Kidding kidding. yeah liltune maybe little too far itt, but still agree with him on a lot of points.

[thecilent]

This douche fight has me all conflicted inside.

lol tyft

[swittig]

after factoring debt? accounting, dentistry, pharmacy, certain types of engineering, etc.

None of those fields (except maybe dentistry) have the same potential earning power down the line. I'll have less disposable income, accounting for debt and CoL as a lawyer than as an engineer, but in 10 years when my debts are paid off I'll have a legitimate career track in-house or something instead of still making ~100k until retirement.

Not true. My dad pulls in over 300K a year as a CPA. Given he's head of the tax department at a Fortune 500 company and he's been in the field for over 20 years, but there is room for quick advancement in the field.

[jared6180]

Might be off subject, but...

With some talking about what their parents have done, I just thought I would contribute. I come from a family of two extremes. My grandfather was a barber until the day he died, he worked Mon-Sat 7a-7p for 35 years and in the last 15 years "lightened his load" by working Tues-Sat 7a-6p. But he was the most successful and well respected barber in town. In addition he was able to pull down close to $100k/year...with $12-13 hair cuts...the man worked his backside off, but he LOVED being at his barber shop!

My grandfather's son...My Dad, on the other hand, had the opportunity to make GREAT money with Goodyear and could have retired 5 years ago with a fat retirement...had he just been willing to work 40-45 hours a week, but no, he couldn't handle it, and now he is always broke and sitting in a trailer park driving a car my uncle bought for him. He claims the reason he never went back to work was because it would cost to much for him to hire a baby sitter for the 3 kids he married into, so his wife works and he stays home...even though the kids have now been gone for almost 4 years...

Here I sit, with a wife and an 8 year old bringing in a little money from VA disability, and I am chomping at the bit to get through school and start law school. I have had the opportunity to spend lots of time with my wife and kid, and while my geography will not allow me to work for NYC BigLaw, I would LOVE to get on at Kansas City BigLaw! Even if they don't pay $160k, thats fine with me, I look forward to KC BigLaw work, and if I have to work 7-7 or 8-8 than I am all for it, because the way I look at it, is I have to pay to play, and in Kansas/Missouri you can do a lot of playing on $100-130k/year. I have had the opportunity to see a HARD worker who was on his feet for over 50 YEARS, and I have seen a lazy individual do nothing but sit around and dream about his inheritance, and may I say I WILL be a worker, so that I can fulfill my own dreams.

Another interesting tidbit is what my wife found in her Professional Ethics book for her Paralegal class. It says in there that the average attorney drinks 5-6 "drinks" a day. I am not a drinker at all, used to be but I have been clean for over 5 years now, and may I say that drinking has never helped be understand the law better. I can't understand why attorneys drink so much more than the average american, but I think it impacts their firm in a negative way, and in the end contributes much more stress to the situation than it relieves. Just my thought...

[ToTransferOrNot]

Might be off subject, but...

With some talking about what their parents have done, I just thought I would contribute. I come from a family of two extremes. My grandfather was a barber until the day he died, he worked Mon-Sat 7a-7p for 35 years and in the last 15 years "lightened his load" by working Tues-Sat 7a-6p. But he was the most successful and well respected barber in town. In addition he was able to pull down close to $100k/year...with $12-13 hair cuts...the man worked his backside off, but he LOVED being at his barber shop!

My grandfather's son...My Dad, on the other hand, had the opportunity to make GREAT money with Goodyear and could have retired 5 years ago with a fat retirement...had he just been willing to work 40-45 hours a week, but no, he couldn't handle it, and now he is always broke and sitting in a trailer park driving a car my uncle bought for him. He claims the reason he never went back to work was because it would cost to much for him to hire a baby sitter for the 3 kids he married into, so his wife works and he stays home...even though the kids have now been gone for almost 4 years...

Here I sit, with a wife and an 8 year old bringing in a little money from VA disability, and I am chomping at the bit to get through school and start law school. I have had the opportunity to spend lots of time with my wife and kid, and while my geography will not allow me to work for NYC BigLaw, I would LOVE to get on at Kansas City BigLaw! Even if they don't pay $160k, thats fine with me, I look forward to KC BigLaw work, and if I have to work 7-7 or 8-8 than I am all for it, because the way I look at it, is I have to pay to play, and in Kansas/Missouri you can do a lot of playing on $100-130k/year. I have had the opportunity to see a HARD worker who was on his feet for over 50 YEARS, and I have seen a lazy individual do nothing but sit around and dream about his inheritance, and may I say I WILL be a worker, so that I can fulfill my own dreams.

Another interesting tidbit is what my wife found in her Professional Ethics book for her Paralegal class. It says in there that the average attorney drinks 5-6 "drinks" a day. I am not a drinker at all, used to be but I have been clean for over 5 years now, and may I say that drinking has never helped be understand the law better. I can't understand why attorneys drink so much more than the average american, but I think it impacts their firm in a negative way, and in the end contributes much more stress to the situation than it relieves. Just my thought...

cool story bro

[fingersxd]

In my previous field I went months working 9-11pm, 6 days a week, I also made twice as much as I make now.

84 hours a week for 320k/yr? Sign me up! 2-3 years of that and I can go do w/e the fuck else I want.
Seriously... I'll send you my resume. Hook it up.

[Renne Walker]

Since a number of people on this thread are familiar with BigLaw, I’d like inquire about Communications Law.

Due to family ties, I had a bird’s eye view of the inner workings of what the street calls FCC Attorneys (these attorneys do not work for the government, but rather interact with the FCC). They hammer out the negotiations between the Buyer and Seller (everything from Letter of Intent, non-disclosure, due-diligence, etc., to the actual Asset Purchase Agreement). Rarely do they ever litigate (when litigation is necessary they often bring in litigators).

The big fees (usually 4-5% of the deal) are secured through negotiating contracts. Even simple contracts generate a hefty fee. My uncle use to say, without the attorneys we would have this deal done by tomorrow, everyone apparently has accepted a delay for attorney fee generation!

I imagine that there is a fair amount of mundane work, such as keeping clients appraised of changing FCC rules, regs, etc.

To me, this is a BigLaw question since some of the largest firms have a communications division, That said, there are a number of smaller firms and solo practitioners dedicated to this field. Either way, I cannot imagine that a +40 hour work week is standard.

Given this economy I am relieved that I am an OP, rather than someone coming out of law school today, given that the credit market needs to be in good shape for deals to transpire. There are still big deals occurring, just not as many.

Since there is little (that I can find on TLS) regarding communications law (or FCC attorneys), anything you can add would be appreciated!

[thesealocust]

Re: summer hours: My understanding is that Cravath works summers like more-or-less first year associates, are upfront about it, and are (fairly) unique in that regard. Plenty of firms just as good as cravath have more summer camp / kid gloves programs that still bring the hurt to 1st year associates.

[nothing important]

I grew up in a war ravaged country and spent a portion of my childhood in the midst of war. We lacked electricity for months and had to stand in long lines for water more often than I care to recall. My mother never managed to get employed again after her firm was bombed to the ground and my father wound up working third shifts at a hotel to pull us through financially.

You want to babble perspective? Talk to someone else. And try to dismount the high horse when you do so.

Greatest. TLS exchange. Ever.

ITT we find out that the grass is not greener on the other side

in fact, there is no grass, green or otherwise, just endless fields of jagged, shit stained rocks (Also that lawyers are overpaid)

Also great.

[elmagic]

In my previous field I went months working 9-11pm, 6 days a week, I also made twice as much as I make now.

84 hours a week for 320k/yr? Sign me up! 2-3 years of that and I can go do w/e the fuck else I want.
Seriously... I'll send you my resume. Hook it up.

Ya bro, that's why I'm dropping out and heading back.

[rayiner]

Relevant to this thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/i ... worker_in/

[BunkMoreland]

Can we get perspective from someone who's actually worked in BIGLAW with wife/kids/etc? How badly did the job threaten to wreck your marriage/relationship with kids and how did you handle it?

[Shammis]

I'm the son of a BigLaw lawyer so from my perspective...I didnt spend that much time with my dad and he made a concerted effort to try to. He worked/works all the time (he owns his own firm now but still works like a dog - though he is happier). He works less now, but not by much. When I was younger he would get home between 830 - 1030 (a couple of times a week he'd make it home for dinner)We had plenty of vacations canceled because of a deal closing, but you learn to expect that (which I now realize is sad lol). When we did go on vacation he worked in the car/plane...called into the office etc. It is a grueling life, make no mistake. We had Friday nights for dinner and a movie as a family...Sat/Sunday he worked at least half the day at home. There have been plenty of times where I find him working at 2AM on a Sunday. He tried to make it to soccer games etc. but was there for maybe half of them. With all that being said, I have a great relationship with him because we utilize what time we do have together. Growing up with it though, It's a major ? whether I'm going to go down the same path - through my Dad's experience I just dont think I want to do that to my kids. It's not easy. My other friends' experiences with their BigLaw families are worse than mine fwiw.

[rayiner]

I'm the son of a BigLaw lawyer so from my perspective...I didnt spend that much time with my dad and he made a concerted effort to try to. He worked/works all the time (he owns his own firm now but still works like a dog - though he is happier). He works less now, but not by much. When I was younger he would get home between 830 - 1030 (a couple of times a week he'd make it home for dinner)We had plenty of vacations canceled because of a deal closing, but you learn to expect that (which I now realize is sad lol). When we did go on vacation he worked in the car/plane...called into the office etc. It is a grueling life, make no mistake. We had Friday nights for dinner and a movie as a family...Sat/Sunday he worked at least half the day at home. There have been plenty of times where I find him working at 2AM on a Sunday. He tried to make it to soccer games etc. but was there for maybe half of them. With all that being said, I have a great relationship with him because we utilize what time we do have together. Growing up with it though, It's a major ? whether I'm going to go down the same path - through my Dad's experience I just dont think I want to do that to my kids. It's not easy. My other friends' experiences with their BigLaw families are worse than mine fwiw.

Doesn't sound that different from my dad, who isn't a lawyer but works similar hours. He'd usually get home for dinner around 8, but he went to work pretty early. Would work half the weekend, but would have all his meals with us. The thing that he had to do a lot that lawyers don't was travel (weeks at a time for about 3-4 months out of the year). That is really a hard thing to put the kids/wife through.

Aside from the travel, I personally couldn't be happier with how much time we had/have with him. I think the big thing is that Americans structure and regimentize their family time, creating immense conflict with work schedules. Kids have soccer on MWF at 4:30 pm, dinner is served promptly at 7 pm, vacations are planned months in advance. Being Bengali, our idea of "dinner time" was 8-9 pm anyway, and extracircular activities meant running around the neighborhood until you got tired. Vacations meant getting away to a house in West Virginia for a weekend, not elaborate trips involving airfare and activities. My dad made me breakfast in the morning, called me when I came home from school, was home in time to make sure I did my homework, and would drag me on errands on the weekends. Frankly as a kid that's more than you want to see your dad, lol.

[Renzo]

Can we get perspective from someone who's actually worked in BIGLAW with wife/kids/etc? How badly did the job threaten to wreck your marriage/relationship with kids and how did you handle it?

I am not a biglaw lawyer yet, but I'm a summer associate with all of those things (who also worked a long-hours job before law school), and I'm not incredibly worried about it.

It's mostly a matter of time management and discipline; and if you are the kind of person who would otherwise want to work in biglaw for the long-haul, then you are likely the kind of person who can discipline yourself to make sure you make time for your family. I think jstubbs' example is spot-on; you just put the family on your calendar like everything else you need to do, and you make it work.