Got an F - Dropping out.... Forum

[Jack Smirks]

More people should get Fs in law school. Getting a JD is easy as hell these days. If it were harder to get a JD, maybe the job market wouldn't be so shit these days.

Excellent analysis.

[geoduck]

More people should get Fs in law school. Getting a JD is easy as hell these days. If it were harder to get a JD, maybe the job market wouldn't be so shit these days.

Are you volunteering?

[NYC Law]

More people should get Fs in law school. Getting a JD is easy as hell these days. If it were harder to get a JD, maybe the job market wouldn't be so shit these days.

Or... instead of failing people out after collecting all $50k+ in tuition dollars, they could just be more selective in who they let in.

[Corwin]

OP's thread seems entirely reasonable to me. Outside of T20 or so, F's are not rare at many schools.

OP claims to be at a T25 (or T25-30).

And F's are exceedingly, tremendously, Leprechaun-ishly rare at these schools.

F's happen at UT every semester. They're rare, but they sure happen more than Leprechaun sightings.

Mandatory Grading policy for 1L Large Sections: "at least 5% of grades must be C+, C, D, or F."

F's given per semester:
Fall 2010: 2
Spring 2010: 8
Fall 2009: 3
Spring 2009: 1
Spring 2008: 3
Fall 2007: 5

By those numbers, less than 1% of the student body at UT receives an F on average each semester. That is pretty damn rare. Also, I'd be really interested in how many of those Fs are actually for unique students. I'm guessing the spike in Spring 2010 can probably be explained by a single student failing all of his/her classes for whatever reason. Finally, the raw number of Fs at a school don't tell the whole story. I'm not a law student, but I assume that you receive an F if you are caught cheating? Fs can also result from students that drop out but don't formally withdraw. What we really need to know in order to assess the OP's claim is how frequent it is that a student receive an F in a class given that the student put forth a good faith effort.

[Hadlendale]

More people should get Fs in law school. Getting a JD is easy as hell these days. If it were harder to get a JD, maybe the job market wouldn't be so shit these days.

Or... instead of failing people out after collecting all $50k+ in tuition dollars, they could just be more selective in who they let in.

T25 schools are plenty selective. He still failed.

[3ThrowAway99]

Would you care to go in depth about what you did wrong so at least us 0Ls can try to learn from your mistakes?

Read newb: OP clearly states, "I don't know how it happened. Still dumbfounded."

Edit: Anyway, OP you go to a top law school. A little adversity and you're just going to quit? If becoming a lawyer is your dream, your passion, then buckle that f'ing chin strap and get to it. As cliche as this may sound, when there is a will there is a way. Retake the class, beg the prof, challenge the grade, just do everything in your power to fix this shit. And even if you can't... remember, they still call the last guy who graduates in your class a lawyer.

OP got a 0.0 for a class. His GPA is now dead.

He's making the right move imo, a 50k loss isn't so bad in the long run.

Don't some law schools let you retake a class you flunked? If so, the situation might not be quite so grim. There is also something to be said for perservering through difficulty, but in your case it sounds like you have other good options, and it is true that an F is pretty rough. If your school does have a retake policy, then the F could end up being better than a D though. I think at my school there are no mandatory Fs (and I am really surprised if there are at a T25), which means that it is entirely discretionary what the prof gives at the low end of the range (C, D, or F/E).



Thinking this is a flame though. Very low post count... And as much as I do feel that grades can be arbitrary and are not always fair in law school, an F at a T25 where you made a good faith effort on an exam just doesn't sound probable to me.

[Naked Dude]

Welcome to the legal field. You fuck up big enough even 1 time, in school or in practice, and your career is effectively over.

this is hardly unique to the law. you fuck up big enough in any field and your career is effectively over.

If this were true, hardly none of our national level politicians would be employed.

Heck, the CEO of the most valuable technical company was effectively kicked out of the company that he had founded, before having a successful comeback years later.

If you're talking about Steve Jobs, he fucked up in terms of office politics (burning bridges among senior executives and board members, trying to oust the current CEO and having it backfire). It was political-he wrestled for more control and to have someone whose leadership he didn't like removed and it backfired on him. It had nothing to do with his knowledge of computers or consumer electronics, or his competency in general.

Failing a class on the other hand, is arguably the latter, a failure in terms of competency (with all due respect). People will put up with a knowledgeable and brilliant and effective pain in the ass (latter day Jobs), but not someone who doesn't know their shit or fucks up majorly.

There's a difference between being an arrogant or obnoxious jag off who's so good at what they do they can't be ignored, and someone who's less than incredible who fucks up majorly.

[TheFutureLawyer]

More people should get Fs in law school. Getting a JD is easy as hell these days. If it were harder to get a JD, maybe the job market wouldn't be so shit these days.

Or... instead of failing people out after collecting all $50k+ in tuition dollars, they could just be more selective in who they let in.

what are you, some sort of socialist?

[Knock]

Your school doesn't force profs to give out F's right? this professor has to be a huge A-hole to give anyone an F who gave a good faith effort

Seriously. I don't think i've ever heard of something like this before .

[haus]

If you're talking about Steve Jobs, he fucked up in terms of office politics (burning bridges among senior executives and board members, trying to oust the current CEO and having it backfire). It was political-he wrestled for more control and to have someone whose leadership he didn't like removed and it backfired on him. It had nothing to do with his knowledge of computers or consumer electronics, or his competency in general.

Failing a class on the other hand, is arguably the latter, a failure in terms of competency (with all due respect). People will put up with a knowledgeable and brilliant and effective pain in the ass (latter day Jobs), but not someone who doesn't know their shit or fucks up majorly.

There's a difference between being an arrogant or obnoxious jag off who's so good at what they do they can't be ignored, and someone who's less than incredible who fucks up majorly.

You are correct that Jobs was not the CEO at the time (he obviously is now), but he is a founder and the CEO at time was in large part brought in with the help of Jobs. I have no doubt that he has an ego the size of all out doors, and that some of the choices that he made rubbed people the wrong way. But if those in power trusted his judgment regarding product direction, there would have been no need to isolate him, leading to his eventual departure. Without a doubt this was a far larger reprimand than receiving a failing grade on a course.

Failing a class, it is nearly impossible to say, without seeing the graded exam. Professors are humans, they are capable of making errors in judgment, perhaps the exam deserved a harsh grade, then again maybe it did not. This is of course dependent on the events that the OP has claimed actually have occurred.

[vamedic03]

Completely agreed. Unless exam is closed book, I don't get how people would even profit from cheating.

who knows, maybe it's something as simple as wikapeding something that wasn't on their outline, whatever it is the curve is so volatile that even a small bit of cheating can help/hurt. if i personally witnessed someone doing this i would have no problem reporting them.

EXACTLY.

NOT EVERYONE copies and pastes. Just saying.

What? Of course not; that's why it's cheating--because some do it and some don't.

(1) People don't cheat. Those who do are pieces of crap who don't belong at UVA.

(2) Copying and pasting is not a good idea even independent of honor. Professors, generally, want analysis, not rule statements.

[Naked Dude]

If you're talking about Steve Jobs, he fucked up in terms of office politics (burning bridges among senior executives and board members, trying to oust the current CEO and having it backfire). It was political-he wrestled for more control and to have someone whose leadership he didn't like removed and it backfired on him. It had nothing to do with his knowledge of computers or consumer electronics, or his competency in general.

Failing a class on the other hand, is arguably the latter, a failure in terms of competency (with all due respect). People will put up with a knowledgeable and brilliant and effective pain in the ass (latter day Jobs), but not someone who doesn't know their shit or fucks up majorly.

There's a difference between being an arrogant or obnoxious jag off who's so good at what they do they can't be ignored, and someone who's less than incredible who fucks up majorly.

You are correct that Jobs was not the CEO at the time (he obviously is now), but he is a founder and the CEO at time was in large part brought in with the help of Jobs. I have no doubt that he has an ego the size of all out doors, and that some of the choices that he made rubbed people the wrong way. But if those in power trusted his judgment regarding product direction, there would have been no need to isolate him, leading to his eventual departure. Without a doubt this was a far larger reprimand than receiving a failing grade on a course.

Failing a class, it is nearly impossible to say, without seeing the graded exam. Professors are humans, they are capable of making errors in judgment, perhaps the exam deserved a harsh grade, then again maybe it did not. This is of course dependent on the events that the OP has claimed actually have occurred.

I amended my point about his earlier title-I misread your sentence and it's douchetastically nitpicky. All I mean is that Jobs was not all but kicked out due to incompetence. No one is irreplaceable (except maybe someone like a post-1997 Jobs). In 1985, Jobs was influential and well-known, and a figurehead, but he had not established himself as a good product manager. A visionary, obviously, enthusiastic, brilliant, but more of a start-up and then let the suits handle it kind of perception on the part of management. Not to mention the fact that he had recently been part of a team (the Lisa) that failed miserably at market, and he had not yet proven himself infallible. Come to think of it, if you approach it from that direction, the fuck up and then later redemption it makes sense. Whatever, it's hairsplitting anyway. I think an F is more akin to Bush II running an oil company into the ground than the fuckups Steve Jobs had that are a natural part of innovation and risk taking in a highly competitive industry.

[yinz]

If you're talking about Steve Jobs, he fucked up in terms of office politics (burning bridges among senior executives and board members, trying to oust the current CEO and having it backfire). It was political-he wrestled for more control and to have someone whose leadership he didn't like removed and it backfired on him. It had nothing to do with his knowledge of computers or consumer electronics, or his competency in general.

Failing a class on the other hand, is arguably the latter, a failure in terms of competency (with all due respect). People will put up with a knowledgeable and brilliant and effective pain in the ass (latter day Jobs), but not someone who doesn't know their shit or fucks up majorly.

There's a difference between being an arrogant or obnoxious jag off who's so good at what they do they can't be ignored, and someone who's less than incredible who fucks up majorly.

You are correct that Jobs was not the CEO at the time (he obviously is now), but he is a founder and the CEO at time was in large part brought in with the help of Jobs. I have no doubt that he has an ego the size of all out doors, and that some of the choices that he made rubbed people the wrong way. But if those in power trusted his judgment regarding product direction, there would have been no need to isolate him, leading to his eventual departure. Without a doubt this was a far larger reprimand than receiving a failing grade on a course.

Failing a class, it is nearly impossible to say, without seeing the graded exam. Professors are humans, they are capable of making errors in judgment, perhaps the exam deserved a harsh grade, then again maybe it did not. This is of course dependent on the events that the OP has claimed actually have occurred.

I amended my point about his earlier title-I misread your sentence and it's douchetastically nitpicky. All I mean is that Jobs was not all but kicked out due to incompetence. No one is irreplaceable (except maybe someone like a post-1997 Jobs). In 1985, Jobs was influential and well-known, and a figurehead, but he had not established himself as a good product manager. A visionary, obviously, enthusiastic, brilliant, but more of a start-up and then let the suits handle it kind of perception on the part of management. Not to mention the fact that he had recently been part of a team (the Lisa) that failed miserably at market, and he had not yet proven himself infallible. Come to think of it, if you approach it from that direction, the fuck up and then later redemption it makes sense. Whatever, it's hairsplitting anyway. I think an F is more akin to Bush II running an oil company into the ground than the fuckups Steve Jobs had that are a natural part of innovation and risk taking in a highly competitive industry.

Typical TLS thread spun out of control--who cares about Steve Jobs.

[geoduck]

Typical TLS thread spun out of control--who cares about Steve Jobs.

As a shareholder, I do! But not at all in the context of this thread.

[haus]

As a shareholder, I do! But not at all in the context of this thread.

By all means, please return to talking about the fake event, that occurred to factious person, which I can only assume was a poorly thought out effort to scare people who have never had a need to face any real setbacks in their life.

[BaiAilian2013]

I thought most Fs were due to being absent too many times or stuff like that.

[theturkeyisfat]

Welcome to the legal field. You fuck up big enough even 1 time, in school or in practice, and your career is effectively over.

this is hardly unique to the law. you fuck up big enough in any field and your career is effectively over.

If this were true, hardly none of our national level politicians would be employed.

Heck, the CEO of the most valuable technical company was effectively kicked out of the company that he had founded, before having a successful comeback years later.

If you're talking about Steve Jobs, he fucked up in terms of office politics (burning bridges among senior executives and board members, trying to oust the current CEO and having it backfire). It was political-he wrestled for more control and to have someone whose leadership he didn't like removed and it backfired on him. It had nothing to do with his knowledge of computers or consumer electronics, or his competency in general.

Failing a class on the other hand, is arguably the latter, a failure in terms of competency (with all due respect). People will put up with a knowledgeable and brilliant and effective pain in the ass (latter day Jobs), but not someone who doesn't know their shit or fucks up majorly.

There's a difference between being an arrogant or obnoxious jag off who's so good at what they do they can't be ignored, and someone who's less than incredible who fucks up majorly.

steve jobs fucked up and paid for it - he was pushed out. but then he continued to be successful (at pixar), so apple welcomed him back.

[theturkeyisfat]

also, this guy has only posted in this thread...


flame?

[geoduck]

steve jobs fucked up and paid for it - he was pushed out. but then he continued to be successful (at pixar creating a new startup called NeXT), so apple welcomed him back purchased NeXT for its operating system when it became painfully obvious that they were no longer able to make a decent OS and brought him back on as a condition of the sale.

FTFY

[Naked Dude]

also, this guy has only posted in this thread...


flame?

I am a pretty cynical guy, but I don't think this always means a flame. There are plenty of people who only use TLS casually, when they need it, not as a social networking site like some in the lounge do. My roommate's been a TLS member for about 6 months and has ~25 posts, posting only when he needs to ask a question on something. Most people who use TLS aren't power users, and I'm willing to believe that there ARE plenty of non-flames who register just to ask for advice on a single thread and disappear into the ether.

[OG Loc]

Sorry disbarred. Recently went through a similar thing -- was top 1/3 at a t25 right up until my last two grades, a B- (that I completely didn't understand) and a C (from an old bat who should've stopped teaching decades ago), that will drop me solidly below median.

These are the perils of getting into a profession where hiring is based on grades and grades are based on one 3-8 hour exam curved against people of similar intelligence and work ethic as you. Grading isn't exactly roulette, but it's pretty damn similar when all is said and done, at least in my experience. I did LEEWS, knew how to write an exam, knew the law pretty well, am reasonably intelligent, and it still went wrong.

I still think I want to be a lawyer, and that I would be good at it... but it's a frustrating position to be in when your dreams are coming together one day and in serious doubt the next, all based on a combined 7 hours of exams you thought you did pretty well on.

[Holly Golightly]

Your school doesn't force profs to give out F's right? this professor has to be a huge A-hole to give anyone an F who gave a good faith effort

Seriously. I don't think i've ever heard of something like this before .

Agreed, the worst thing I worry about are discretionary C's.

[MauveDinosaur]

Umm...so I've been scouring the forums over the past day or so to find a TLS'er who experienced a similar predicament. Unfortunately, this thread has become painfully, horrifyingly relevant to my needs. I'm a T30 rising 2L and just found out I got an "F" in one of my classes. I felt mediocre about the exam (which was taken in the wake of my dad getting into a serious car accident ) but I never in my wildest dreams would have envisioned this happening, esp. since profs at the caliber of schools I attend typically don't fail students who put forth a good faith effort--which I thought I did.

I was informed by the Dean that I would have to retake the course, which would erase the "F" from my transcript, but I could not receive anything higher than a "C" on the retaken exam. This is a TOTAL aberration compared to the rest of my transcript. I ended up with a B/B+ average the fall semester, which was not terrible considering my career goals (total bleeding heart PI gunner here; not interested in BigLaw in the slightest) I did get an "A" in Ks, so I obviously have the potential to succeed. I also desire a career in law and have absolutely LOVED the pro bono work I did last year and my summer gig so far, which makes the situation even more difficult--if I despised the study and practice of law, I would have cut my losses and left without hesitation.

Please help...I've been like numb for the past 24 hours from the shock...

[bceagles182]

Based on the comments ("It's okay. You shouldn't drop out because you'll still be a lawyer if you finish"), I'm guessing that a lot of the people on here are 0Ls, in which case you people need to get out of the law student forum.

As for the OP, if you are still around, you have my condolences, but I would drop out if I was you.

Regarding the rarity of Fs, there were a few in my 1L section but those people weren't allowed to sit for the exam because they had too many absences. The lowest grade anyone who actually took the exam received was a D.

[Nova]

Based on the comments ("It's okay. You shouldn't drop out because you'll still be a lawyer if you finish"), I'm guessing that a lot of the people on here are 0Ls, in which case you people need to get out of the law student forum.

As for the OP, if you are still around, you have my condolences, but I would drop out if I was you.

Regarding the rarity of Fs, there were a few in my 1L section but those people weren't allowed to sit for the exam because they had too many absences. The lowest grade anyone who actually took the exam received was a D.

Thread is 2 years old