Paying back loans with BigLaw salary- how long? Forum

[Renzo]

That avatar explains why you follow me around so much Renzo--you have a thing for Black guy's--it all makes sense now! Sorry man that's not my thing but I'm flattered! That's so ironic you actually might like Atlanta more than NYC!

Atlanta is a fucking hellhole of traffic and urban sprawl. It still beats L.A., but that's no accomplishment.

[Connelly]

Atlanta is a fucking hellhole of traffic and urban sprawl. It still beats L.A., but that's no accomplishment.

Although I agree, much of that can be avoided in Atlanta. Living in town cuts out all of the traffic and keeps the Tea Partiers away.

[SuichiKurama]

Atlanta is a fucking hellhole of traffic and urban sprawl. It still beats L.A., but that's no accomplishment.

Although I agree, much of that can be avoided in Atlanta. Living in town cuts out all of the traffic and keeps the Tea Partiers away.

If you're living in midtown etc. Atlanta is pretty liberal. I'm pretty sure that it just won "best city for gays" or something of that nature. Atlanta is known for having a large contingent of Black gays--that's why I recommended it to Renzo.

[romothesavior]

ITT: Weird discussion ensues.

[sdv]

so before this thread turned into offensive attacks on the quality of mid-size cities and entire regions of the country, I was very interested in what was being said, mostly because of my own decision:

I chose Vandy with a 3/4 scholly over Columbia at sticker (3.76, 174 FWIW). My numbers were definitely Columbia-worthy and a toss up at Harvard, but I'm going to Vandy. About half the posters ITT will laud my frugality and say I made a smart decision for the debt, the other half will say I foolishly turned down much better prestige and opportunity. I do feel better about avoiding debt and having a much lower COL, but the fact is I'm going to Vandy largely to be closer to my girlfriend (would-be fiancee, but I can't afford the ring yet). I justified this decision using the same logic I've read here, that employment prospects aren't that much better at CLS than VLS, etc. I feel the need to correct and clarify a few blanket statements I've read here:

1. the generalized statement "ITE lower ranked schools are more affected than higher ranked schools" isn't true. Logically it makes sense, but Vandy was the only T20 whose NLJ hiring actually went UP last year, while everyone else's plummeted. I believe Vandy's was even higher than Penn's.

2. It's true that CLS grads have a huge leg up in ny. But I'd wager that their lofty ranking compared to the other top schools is helped largely by their position in the biggest law market in the country - of course they're going to have higher "placement stats", because the 20th best firm in the city is going to be "ranked" higher than the vast majority of firms in every other city, etc. It's pretty common to see threads about how southern schools are underrepresented in the rankings because southern biglaw (Atlanta, mostly) doesn't have many firms in the NLJ250 even though they pay to scale. The only way CLS wins the debate hands down is if one's goal is ny biglaw or bust. Any other scenario, and a million other factors come into play.

3. Vandy does fine in clerkship placements - 8 federal appeals clerks and a SCOTUS clerk this year were part of their 40 or so clerkships. I don't know what Columbia's numbers are (they're surely better), but one wouldn't be SOL attending Vandy instead, for whatever reason. And for one interested in a life of clerking and federal work, one would think minimizing debt might be a good option...

4. The distinction between the schools, other than location, is largely due to the breakdown of the classes. Columbia is solid all the way through with smart, intelligent people. I've heard it said about Vandy in multiple places and from multiple sources that the upper half of the class is brilliant and there's no discernable difference between those students and the top students in the country, while a clearer distinction can be made from the bottom half or so. Basically, if you can stay in the top half at Vandy, you have the same opportunities as you would going to any higher rated school, minus some elite opportunities that are generally reserved for h/y/s grads. And I do agree that if you can't finish in the top half at Vandy, you wouldn't finish in the top 70% at CLS.

Granted, this still isn't the exact topic the OP presented. But it is preferable to the obnoxious sabre rattling about how much "better" ny is than any other city known to man, or how big cities are better than small ones, or how the south is terrible, etc.

[SuichiKurama]

so before this thread turned into offensive attacks on the quality of mid-size cities and entire regions of the country, I was very interested in what was being said, mostly because of my own decision:

I chose Vandy with a 3/4 scholly over Columbia at sticker (3.76, 174 FWIW). My numbers were definitely Columbia-worthy and a toss up at Harvard, but I'm going to Vandy. About half the posters ITT will laud my frugality and say I made a smart decision for the debt, the other half will say I foolishly turned down much better prestige and opportunity. I do feel better about avoiding debt and having a much lower COL, but the fact is I'm going to Vandy largely to be closer to my girlfriend (would-be fiancee, but I can't afford the ring yet). I justified this decision using the same logic I've read here, that employment prospects aren't that much better at CLS than VLS, etc. I feel the need to correct and clarify a few blanket statements I've read here:

1. the generalized statement "ITE lower ranked schools are more affected than higher ranked schools" isn't true. Logically it makes sense, but Vandy was the only T20 whose NLJ hiring actually went UP last year, while everyone else's plummeted. I believe Vandy's was even higher than Penn's.

2. It's true that CLS grads have a huge leg up in ny. But I'd wager that their lofty ranking compared to the other top schools is helped largely by their position in the biggest law market in the country - of course they're going to have higher "placement stats", because the 20th best firm in the city is going to be "ranked" higher than the vast majority of firms in every other city, etc. It's pretty common to see threads about how southern schools are underrepresented in the rankings because southern biglaw (Atlanta, mostly) doesn't have many firms in the NLJ250 even though they pay to scale. The only way CLS wins the debate hands down is if one's goal is ny biglaw or bust. Any other scenario, and a million other factors come into play.

3. Vandy does fine in clerkship placements - 8 federal appeals clerks and a SCOTUS clerk this year were part of their 40 or so clerkships. I don't know what Columbia's numbers are (they're surely better), but one wouldn't be SOL attending Vandy instead, for whatever reason. And for one interested in a life of clerking and federal work, one would think minimizing debt might be a good option...

4. The distinction between the schools, other than location, is largely due to the breakdown of the classes. Columbia is solid all the way through with smart, intelligent people. I've heard it said about Vandy in multiple places and from multiple sources that the upper half of the class is brilliant and there's no discernable difference between those students and the top students in the country, while a clearer distinction can be made from the bottom half or so. Basically, if you can stay in the top half at Vandy, you have the same opportunities as you would going to any higher rated school, minus some elite opportunities that are generally reserved for h/y/s grads. And I do agree that if you can't finish in the top half at Vandy, you wouldn't finish in the top 70% at CLS.

Granted, this still isn't the exact topic the OP presented. But it is preferable to the obnoxious sabre rattling about how much "better" ny is than any other city known to man, or how big cities are better than small ones, or how the south is terrible, etc.

Preach brother, preach.

[270910]

Vandy was the only T20 whose NLJ hiring actually went UP last year, while everyone else's plummeted. I believe Vandy's was even higher than Penn's.

Those numbers are extremely out of date. They were published in 2010. They represent the class of 2009. The class of 2009 spent their summer at law firms in 2008. They were hired for their jobs in FALL OF TWO THOUSAND AND SEVEN. They represent some people getting no-offered from large law firms, which was much more even in affecting schools. They do not represent the hiring done in Fall 2008 or Fall 2009, which are the times when the disproportionate impact was observed.

I don't necessarily disagree with your decision, but you flat out misinterpreted that data.

Everything else you say is fine though, and I think ~75% schooly at vandy vs. sticker at CCN is a legitimately tough choice. It would depend on one's career goals, especially whether or not big law / NYC big law was at the top of the priority list. It sounds like your overall assessment was sound and you made the right choice for you.

[Geist13]

Vandy was the only T20 whose NLJ hiring actually went UP last year, while everyone else's plummeted. I believe Vandy's was even higher than Penn's.

Those numbers are extremely out of date. They were published in 2010. They represent the class of 2009. The class of 2009 spent their summer at law firms in 2008. They were hired for their jobs in FALL OF TWO THOUSAND AND SEVEN. They represent some people getting no-offered from large law firms, which was much more even in affecting schools. They do not represent the hiring done in Fall 2008 or Fall 2009, which are the times when the disproportionate impact was observed.

I don't necessarily disagree with your decision, but you flat out misinterpreted that data.

Everything else you say is fine though, and I think ~75% schooly at vandy vs. sticker at CCN is a legitimately tough choice. It would depend on one's career goals, especially whether or not big law / NYC big law was at the top of the priority list. It sounds like your overall assessment was sound and you made the right choice for you.

If the most recent data available is not a good indication of the present market (which I agree with), what numbers do you suggest people use? Surely we can't use even older data (as some people in this thread used when claiming that despite the most recent numbers, CLS "traditionally" places 70% in NLJ250).

[SuichiKurama]

Vandy was the only T20 whose NLJ hiring actually went UP last year, while everyone else's plummeted. I believe Vandy's was even higher than Penn's.

Those numbers are extremely out of date. They were published in 2010. They represent the class of 2009. The class of 2009 spent their summer at law firms in 2008. They were hired for their jobs in FALL OF TWO THOUSAND AND SEVEN. They represent some people getting no-offered from large law firms, which was much more even in affecting schools. They do not represent the hiring done in Fall 2008 or Fall 2009, which are the times when the disproportionate impact was observed.

I don't necessarily disagree with your decision, but you flat out misinterpreted that data.

Everything else you say is fine though, and I think ~75% schooly at vandy vs. sticker at CCN is a legitimately tough choice. It would depend on one's career goals, especially whether or not big law / NYC big law was at the top of the priority list. It sounds like your overall assessment was sound and you made the right choice for you.

If the most recent data available is not a good indication of the present market (which I agree with), what numbers do you suggest people use? Surely we can't use even older data (as some people in this thread used when claiming that despite the most recent numbers, CLS "traditionally" places 70% in NLJ250).

Exactly, this data is as good as it's going to get for quite some time (when the class of 2010 numbers come out).

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Outside of this most people are trying to use overall US News rank (although they try to act like their not) as the defacto source for placement. That might work with HYS but after that it gets too hazy down to 18 to make staunch statements.

[doyleoil]

after that it gets too hazy down to 18

no

[ZXCVBNM]

disclaimer: i skipped pages 2-5. Paying approx $2K/month for 30 years is a lot but pretty doable. Good luck buying a house on top of that but if your only concern is paying it back, if you land BigLaw you should be ok. Keep in mind that you will have to stay there and make partner, also not easy, or else you will take a big hit lateraling into gen counsel or gov't. Columbia gives you a better shot at biglaw than just about any other school. So don;t take a scholarship to save some money now if it really hurts BIglaw chances.

[SuichiKurama]

after that it gets too hazy down to 18

no

To clarify I'm not talking about the difference between Columbia and Texas, but I am talking about differences like NYU and Michigan or Duke and Penn. Contrary to how people try to make it out, US News overall rank does not necessarily indicate placement differences.

[sdv]

after that it gets too hazy down to 18

no

To clarify I'm not talking about the difference between Columbia and Texas, but I am talking about differences like NYU and Michigan or Duke and Penn. Contrary to how people try to make it out, US News overall rank does not necessarily indicate placement differences.

depends on what differences are important to you. I'd say the principal reason Columbia is at the top of the "national schools that aren't HYS" ranking is that the most sought after jobs are NY biglaw, and Columbia is the best at placing into NY biglaw of these schools. If this is your stated goal, Columbia is going to be the best at doing what you want to do. If you'd rather practice in Chicago, though, or DC, or LA, etc, other factors become important and it's much more difficult to justify paying more money to Columbia because of its rank and astronomical COL. Incidentally, I'd say the same thing about schools like Penn and Cornell that practically funnel grads to NY, though with the potentially lower cost through scholarship and much lower COL make them more viable.

It's a complicated algorithm, though, and those with good #s don't always find worthwhile scholarships available at lower-ranked schools. I was fortunate to get good money from Vandy and Duke, but yield protection is real and some schools (Emory, for instance) don't offer as much to those with numbers much higher than their medians while others (Pitt, Penn State) make it a practice of not offering ANYONE large scholarships. In a case where the scholarship pickings are slim for whatever reason, taking the prestige of Columbia isn't such a bad thing.

[sdv]

also, I appreciate the defense of the VLS data. It's the most recent data available, and anyone who rejects it must also reject the blanket "the economy hit lower ranked schools harder than higher ranked schools" argument out of hand, which was more my point - no one can possibly make that statement with any facts to back them up, especially when the most recent numbers available fly in the face of that sentiment.

[SuichiKurama]

after that it gets too hazy down to 18

no

To clarify I'm not talking about the difference between Columbia and Texas, but I am talking about differences like NYU and Michigan or Duke and Penn. Contrary to how people try to make it out, US News overall rank does not necessarily indicate placement differences.

depends on what differences are important to you. I'd say the principal reason Columbia is at the top of the "national schools that aren't HYS" ranking is that the most sought after jobs are NY biglaw, and Columbia is the best at placing into NY biglaw of these schools. If this is your stated goal, Columbia is going to be the best at doing what you want to do. If you'd rather practice in Chicago, though, or DC, or LA, etc, other factors become important and it's much more difficult to justify paying more money to Columbia because of its rank and astronomical COL. Incidentally, I'd say the same thing about schools like Penn and Cornell that practically funnel grads to NY, though with the potentially lower cost through scholarship and much lower COL make them more viable.

It's a complicated algorithm, though, and those with good #s don't always find worthwhile scholarships available at lower-ranked schools. I was fortunate to get good money from Vandy and Duke, but yield protection is real and some schools (Emory, for instance) don't offer as much to those with numbers much higher than their medians while others (Pitt, Penn State) make it a practice of not offering ANYONE large scholarships. In a case where the scholarship pickings are slim for whatever reason, taking the prestige of Columbia isn't such a bad thing.

I'm not sure about the bolded. If you look at HYS all of them tend to send a huge portion of their top grads to DC; really the amount that Stanford sends to DC (20 percent) is somewhat stunning when you look at the school's locale.

[sdv]

I'm not sure about the bolded. If you look at HYS all of them tend to send a huge portion of their top grads to DC; really the amount that Stanford sends to DC (20 percent) is somewhat stunning when you look at the school's locale.

I'd argue semantics here - DC work might be the most prestigious or the most difficult to obtain (depending on the work - I'm talking SCOTUS clerks, Federal Gov positions, firms specializing in SCOTUS work, etc), but I'd be pretty confident that a larger number of people pursue ny biglaw as a career goal (and there are more jobs to be had).

[SuichiKurama]

I'm not sure about the bolded. If you look at HYS all of them tend to send a huge portion of their top grads to DC; really the amount that Stanford sends to DC (20 percent) is somewhat stunning when you look at the school's locale.

I'd argue semantics here - DC work might be the most prestigious or the most difficult to obtain (depending on the work - I'm talking SCOTUS clerks, Federal Gov positions, firms specializing in SCOTUS work, etc), but I'd be pretty confident that a larger number of people pursue ny biglaw as a career goal (and there are more jobs to be had).

Credited.

[BunkMoreland]

Do BIGTEXAS laterals have sway outside of the South? If I wanted to work in DC or something after escaping the rat race, would that be enough, or do those types have the same biases I have against former texas big lawyers (IE south is full of religious morons, etc.)? I think the main issue is whether you "escape" the south into a decent position after your big law stint is over. If so, I wouldn't mind serving my time there over NYC.

[JG Hall]

.

[romothesavior]

Bump, only because OCI /offers makes my crushing debt and impending poverty even more tragic...

160k, + maybe 10k in bonus, takes home what? 90kish? That's 7.5 a month take home, - 2or 3k in loan payments, which brings us to 5k, and then savings/insurance amount to how much?

Fuck, I'm going to have to live with roommates. Or worse... in Bklyn.

Have we not been over this 100 times already?

[XxSpyKEx]

Before I get yelled at, I just used one of the random finaid calculators to give a ballpark.

To pay off in 10 years:

Loan Balance: $280,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $280,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 10 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $3,222.25
Number of Payments: 120

Cumulative Payments: $386,669.87
Total Interest Paid: $106,669.87

Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 119 payments of $3,222.25 plus a final payment of $3,222.12.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $386,670.00 to be able to afford to repay this loan.

30 years:

Loan Balance: $280,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $280,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 30 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $1,825.39
Number of Payments: 360

Cumulative Payments: $657,141.02
Total Interest Paid: $377,141.02

Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 359 payments of $1,825.39 plus a final payment of $1,826.01.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $219,046.80 to be able to afford to repay this loan.

You didn't account for the fact that over half of these loans will be GRADPLUS and therefore at the 8.5% rate not the 6.8% stafford rate.

according to my calculations you will be paying at least $3350 per month in loans for ten years. Over the course of a ten year payment plan, you will pay back over $400,000.

On a 25 year payment plan you will pay about 2,100 per month for 25 years. Over the course of the entire period you will pay over $630,000.

These numbers do not include the amount of interest that will accrue, and therefore need to be paid off, on the UG loan that is deferred while you are in law school.

In addition to the last quote, you, like the OP, fail to account for interest accumulated while in school. Just because you borrow $280K total across 7 years, doesn't mean you only owe $280K when you leave law school (i.e. while it doesn't compound, there is still interest added each year to your loans, except $10,500 /year in stafford loans). I'm not taking the time to calculate this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually closer to $350K by the time OP is done.