-delete Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

I actually think criminal and family law are fairly decent fields for employment, in that there's a pretty inexhaustible demand. It's just that getting a job in those fields is very different from getting a job in biglaw, and a little harder to generalize about. But for criminal you'd want to intern for the DA/PD as much as you could, and do the criminal courses/clinics at your school. Family law, you probably want to look for local firms and try to get a student gig with them (family law tends to solos or small local firms - you don't have national family firms, in part because family law is all state law). You may well also have a family law clinic in your school; also, legal aid programs tend to do a lot of domestic stuff.

[AReasonableMan]

I attend a T30 Strong Regional

Almost every LRW (LMW) professor I've heard about has similar style including my own. It's just the way it is. At my school students are getting mad and organized but do you really want to be that person? Think about it, her job is to train you on real life, I clerked as a 0L (long story) at a respected law firm in a small city. Every attorney there had the EXACT same style. You don't know what they want or how they want it, you just do what you think you need to do to get by. Often that is the best answer to these problems. You are a professional now, sending that email will hinder you in political ways that are just unnecessary. Play nice, smile and try to figure it out. It is exactly the same in real life.

If she is able to see which papers are yours (there are ways) do you want to be the C in your class for being 'brave'?

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I've decided that I'm going to just send an apology and move on. But I still have to disagree that her job is to train me for real life. I signed up for this program, requesting training in legal writing. But this is a useless point anyway, and I'd only bring it up if I were to file a complaint with other students. Also, I'm curious about what LRW instructors at T10 schools are like. Anyone know firsthand?

Isn't training you for legal writing and training you for real life the same thing? That's like saying a journalism course shouldn't prepare students for how to work for a newspaper, but should teach them as if they will always operate in a vacuum.

Also, writing is subjective. It would be physically impossible for your professor to tell you every single minute detail she will be evaluating when she grades your work: there's an infinite number of possibilities.

Also, even if she is "hiding the ball" (as the phrase goes), that is essentially what all law professors do in all classes, not just LRW. It is not the professor's job—in any class, including legal writing—to help you figure out how to get a good grade. It's their job to make sure you are prepared to be an attorney. And that's what it sounds like she's doing.

They are generally very smart and very nice. They tend to be more recent hires and don't earn as much as other professors. Although this was not my experience at all, one would imagine that because of where they are in the hierarchy despite having similar qualifications to more esteemed professors, they might be particularly sensitive to being disrespected. So don't disrespect them. Don't write a long winded apology, because expecting a superior to read your 5 page half-hearted apology is also disrespectful. Write a 30 word or less apology, and move on.

[mootness]

They are generally very smart and very nice. They tend to be more recent hires and don't earn as much as other professors. Although this was not my experience at all, one would imagine that because of where they are in the hierarchy despite having similar qualifications to more esteemed professors, they might be particularly sensitive to being disrespected. So don't disrespect them. Don't write a long winded apology, because expecting a superior to read your 5 page half-hearted apology is also disrespectful. Write a 30 word or less apology, and move on.

That's interesting what you say about hierarchy and respect. I think I've been lucky in my workplace experiences. I worked for a large company prior to school. I was the lowest person in this team's hierarchy, had three managers and a boss. Everyone acted like equals. The boss would talk to us for hours about work and personal stuff, gave very clear instructions, and took us out for lunch regularly. "Respect" was never an issue for anyone. They trained me for a whole new project while I was there, because I learned so quickly. I guess a law firm isn't like this and I've been spoiled.

[SFSpartan]

They are generally very smart and very nice. They tend to be more recent hires and don't earn as much as other professors. Although this was not my experience at all, one would imagine that because of where they are in the hierarchy despite having similar qualifications to more esteemed professors, they might be particularly sensitive to being disrespected. So don't disrespect them. Don't write a long winded apology, because expecting a superior to read your 5 page half-hearted apology is also disrespectful. Write a 30 word or less apology, and move on.

That's interesting what you say about hierarchy and respect. I think I've been lucky in my workplace experiences. I worked for a large company prior to school. I was the lowest person in this team's hierarchy, had three managers and a boss. Everyone acted like equals. The boss would talk to us for hours about work and personal stuff, gave very clear instructions, and took us out for a lunch regularly. "Respect" was never an issue for anyone. They trained me for a whole new project while I was there, because I learned so fast. I guess a law firm isn't like this and I've been spoiled.

I would be really suprising if a significant plurality of biglaw firms act consistently with your prior experiences re: respect and hierarchy.

Also, what JG said above is spot on. Would add that being able to discern what the people you work for are looking for re: writing is a hugely important real-life writing skill, and being able to do it will make practice quite a bit easier.

[AReasonableMan]

They are generally very smart and very nice. They tend to be more recent hires and don't earn as much as other professors. Although this was not my experience at all, one would imagine that because of where they are in the hierarchy despite having similar qualifications to more esteemed professors, they might be particularly sensitive to being disrespected. So don't disrespect them. Don't write a long winded apology, because expecting a superior to read your 5 page half-hearted apology is also disrespectful. Write a 30 word or less apology, and move on.

That's interesting what you say about hierarchy and respect. I think I've been lucky in my workplace experiences. I worked for a large company prior to school. I was the lowest person in this team's hierarchy, had three managers and a boss. Everyone acted like equals. The boss would talk to us for hours about work and personal stuff, gave very clear instructions, and took us out for lunch regularly. "Respect" was never an issue for anyone. They trained me for a whole new project while I was there, because I learned so quickly. I guess a law firm isn't like this and I've been spoiled.

Yes but you were probably about 22, didn't graduate on law review from Harvard or the like and practice law in a high stakes atmosphere for 5 years before you started the job. I'm not saying that the people treat each either as not being equal in either a law firm or a law school, but it's implied when you have responsibility A vs. B, and earn half the salary of the person with responsibility B. In addition, most law professors at a given school have fairly similar credentials. I'm not saying LRW profs have a Napoleon complex about this, but that it would be understandable if they cared about being respected.

[totesTheGoat]

That's interesting what you say about hierarchy and respect. I think I've been lucky in my workplace experiences. I worked for a large company prior to school. I was the lowest person in this team's hierarchy, had three managers and a boss. Everyone acted like equals. The boss would talk to us for hours about work and personal stuff, gave very clear instructions, and took us out for lunch regularly. "Respect" was never an issue for anyone. They trained me for a whole new project while I was there, because I learned so quickly. I guess a law firm isn't like this and I've been spoiled.

It's not really a question of equals, but of job role. Law is still very much an apprenticeship based practice, and you are constantly being mentored to take on more responsibility. In doing so, you are expected to actually learn from those who are ahead of you. That doesn't necessarily mean to expect unclear instructions and no personal connections, but it does mean that you have to respect seniority.

I think I've been lucky in my workplace experiences. I worked for a large company prior to school. I was the lowest person in this team's hierarchy, had three managers and a boss. Everyone acted like equals.

I've worked in a law firm that was a bit like that. It was very informal and open-door. People would just come by and chat for an hour. Partner, associate, staff... it didn't matter. They were all friends, and their families all knew each other, and they spent a lot of time together outside of work.

It wasn't for me. I'm not one for excessive socializing at work. It was just a bit too informal for me, and this is coming from a guy who used to be able to wear t-shirts and gym shorts to his engineering job before law school.

[anonymous5491]

I don't even know what legal writing would entail if not to prepare you for practice.

Practice? We're talking about practice, man.

[mootness]

I would be really suprising if a significant plurality of biglaw firms act consistently with your prior experiences re: respect and hierarchy.

What gives you the impression I'm set on or even want biglaw?

[SFSpartan]

I would be really suprising if a significant plurality of biglaw firms act consistently with your prior experiences re: respect and hierarchy.

What gives you the impression I'm set on or even want biglaw?

Ok, fine. My experience is that lawyers in law firms (regardless of size) generally don't act in a manner that reflect your previous experience.

[mootness]

I would be really suprising if a significant plurality of biglaw firms act consistently with your prior experiences re: respect and hierarchy.

What gives you the impression I'm set on or even want biglaw?

Ok, fine. My experience is that lawyers in law firms (regardless of size) generally don't act in a manner that reflect your previous experience.

How many law firms have you worked in and what were their sizes / purposes? I'm not saying I need or even expect the law firm I may or may not work in in the future to be similar to my previous workplace -- I just want to get the story straight re: law firm atmosphere and size.

[SFSpartan]

I would be really suprising if a significant plurality of biglaw firms act consistently with your prior experiences re: respect and hierarchy.

What gives you the impression I'm set on or even want biglaw?

Ok, fine. My experience is that lawyers in law firms (regardless of size) generally don't act in a manner that reflect your previous experience.

How many law firms have you worked in and what were their sizes / purposes? I'm not saying I need or even expect the law firm I may or may not work in in the future to be similar to my previous workplace -- I just want to get the story straight re: law firm atmosphere and size.

I work in midlaw- about 100 attorneys. Practice group is 3 attorneys who are essentially completely siloed off from the rest of the firm. I've also worked with solos and had enough interaction with biglaw folks to know what's up. My experience is that small firms/solos were generally bigger assholes because there was no larger org. to check their behavior/no one to judge them.

[NotMyRealName09]

I would be really suprising if a significant plurality of biglaw firms act consistently with your prior experiences re: respect and hierarchy.

What gives you the impression I'm set on or even want biglaw?

Ok, fine. My experience is that lawyers in law firms (regardless of size) generally don't act in a manner that reflect your previous experience.

How many law firms have you worked in and what were their sizes / purposes? I'm not saying I need or even expect the law firm I may or may not work in in the future to be similar to my previous workplace -- I just want to get the story straight re: law firm atmosphere and size.

I work in midlaw- about 100 attorneys. Practice group is 3 attorneys who are essentially completely siloed off from the rest of the firm. I've also worked with solos and had enough interaction with biglaw folks to know what's up. My experience is that small firms/solos were generally bigger assholes because there was no larger org. to check their behavior/no one to judge them.

Not to mention far less room for error / slowness / lost client(s).

[mootness]

I would be really suprising if a significant plurality of biglaw firms act consistently with your prior experiences re: respect and hierarchy.

What gives you the impression I'm set on or even want biglaw?

Ok, fine. My experience is that lawyers in law firms (regardless of size) generally don't act in a manner that reflect your previous experience.

How many law firms have you worked in and what were their sizes / purposes? I'm not saying I need or even expect the law firm I may or may not work in in the future to be similar to my previous workplace -- I just want to get the story straight re: law firm atmosphere and size.

I work in midlaw- about 100 attorneys. Practice group is 3 attorneys who are essentially completely siloed off from the rest of the firm. I've also worked with solos and had enough interaction with biglaw folks to know what's up. My experience is that small firms/solos were generally bigger assholes because there was no larger org. to check their behavior/no one to judge them.

Yeah, makes complete sense the small firms / solos would be "bigger assholes".