GULC v. T-7

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GULC v. T-7

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 03, 2020 5:33 pm

Hi all—

I’m a urm from at a school ranked around 45 w a 3.93 gpa. Really happy to say that i was accepted at GULC via early action. I love DC (have family there) and considered it my dream school but wanted to hear if there’s that big of a gap between GULC and the schools in the T-7 (thinking about applying) in terms of career opportunity, etc. I don’t know what kind of law I want to do but do hope to get a federal clerkship and I do have some interest in academia. If I were to be accepted at one of t-7 schools would it be a "no brainer" to attend there over GULC? Would love to hear thoughts or advice. Thank you!

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cavalier1138

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun May 03, 2020 5:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If I were to be accepted at one of t-7 schools would it be a "no brainer" to attend there over GULC?
Yes.

Since finances won't be all that different between schools, you should only be considering hiring prospects. And there is a massive gulf between Georgetown and HYSCCN (and Penn, but most people don't lump them in with that grouping).

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by zg43 » Sun May 03, 2020 6:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all—

I’m a urm from at a school ranked around 45 w a 3.93 gpa. Really happy to say that i was accepted at GULC via early action. I love DC (have family there) and considered it my dream school but wanted to hear if there’s that big of a gap between GULC and the schools in the T-7 (thinking about applying) in terms of career opportunity, etc. I don’t know what kind of law I want to do but do hope to get a federal clerkship and I do have some interest in academia. If I were to be accepted at one of t-7 schools would it be a "no brainer" to attend there over GULC? Would love to hear thoughts or advice. Thank you!
I think if you want to stay in DC then GULC is probably just as good as most outside of YSH.

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cavalier1138

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun May 03, 2020 7:10 pm

zg43 wrote:I think if you want to stay in DC then GULC is probably just as good as most outside of YSH.
The OP wants to shoot for federal clerkships and potentially academia. Their stated reasons for wanting to be in DC are about being close to family and liking the area, not being so devoted to a career in the DC area that they'd forego better career opportunities elsewhere.

So unless "stay in DC" includes every job in DC (i.e. small private practice and less competitive government jobs), then no, GULC is not just as good as other top schools with objectively better numbers in competitive hiring areas.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by zg43 » Sun May 03, 2020 7:15 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
zg43 wrote:I think if you want to stay in DC then GULC is probably just as good as most outside of YSH.
The OP wants to shoot for federal clerkships and potentially academia. Their stated reasons for wanting to be in DC are about being close to family and liking the area, not being so devoted to a career in the DC area that they'd forego better career opportunities elsewhere.
I think this is for OP to answer :)

If OP is willing to leave DC for other opportunities, then any school in the T13 is a better option, obviously.

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zoeharts

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by zoeharts » Mon May 04, 2020 12:35 am

If your interests are in academia and federal clerkships, then a higher ranked school would serve you better.
With a 3.93 GPA from a T1 school, you have a shot at T-6.
You should apply broadly.
Good luck!

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by decimalsanddollars » Mon May 04, 2020 10:04 am

Agree w/ Cav and Zoe. There's a significant gap in placement for clerkships and academia between schools in the top 6 (plus Penn, to a lesser extent) and Georgetown. Georgetown may have some self-selection-based placement edge in DC overall, but not for top positions that leave the possibility for academia open. Because the cost would be the same at each, I would go to a school ranked higher if you can. Yale would be a long shot (they mostly take transfers from other t14-20 schools), but I think you're in play everywhere else.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by plurilingue » Mon May 04, 2020 6:39 pm

GULC is not a consolation prize for someone with your application. I don’t think any of DCNG would necessarily be a better outcome, and maybe not even MVPB. I give >66% odds you will get one of CCN at a minimum. You are very likely to have a very positive outcome at OCI given your GPA, so GULC shouldn’t even be on your list.

I would blanket the T14 (except maybe minus Yale and GULC), see where the chips fall and go to the highest ranked school that is in a place you want to be for at least a few years. After all, you will be paying full freight.

Also, I am still unclear as to why GULC isn’t considered more like UCLA than Cornell/Northwestern give its placement.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by QContinuum » Mon May 04, 2020 8:42 pm

plurilingue wrote:Also, I am still unclear as to why GULC isn’t considered more like UCLA than Cornell/Northwestern give its placement.
That's why a plurality of TLSers have started referring to the T13 instead of the T14. There's a cliff-edge drop in placement power between Cornell and Georgetown. Vandy's BigLaw/fed clerk placement, in recent years, has actually approximated or even exceeded Georgetown's. So there's a very good reason to draw the line between Cornell and Georgetown, and no good reason at all to draw the line between Georgetown and whatever school is ranked #15 (currently UCLA, but was Texas Law last year, IIRC).

Georgetown's still a great school, but its peers are the T20 schools. It's arguably the strongest T20 (its historical prestige is probably stronger than Vandy's, even if Vandy's BigLaw/fed clerk numbers have caught up in recent years, and it also has the advantage of being located in D.C.), but it's more similar to the rest of the T20 than to the T13.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 04, 2020 9:24 pm

OP here.

Thank you all for the candid feedback. I don’t have any family members in the legal profession so this has been very helpful to get some perspective. I do love DC but not married to it—I definitely want to pursue the best opportunity that I can.

Seems like any t-13 school is a consensus no brainer so i’ll apply broadly. Hoping for the best! Also one more q—do people have any advice ab write on competitions? did you do them all? I also just read that for HLS you can participate it in next summer.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by TheChain » Mon May 04, 2020 11:51 pm

I would pick any T13 over GULC, but I think the gap between GULC and some of the T13 schools is exaggerated. Just looking at big law placements doesn't take into account that GULC has: a large PT program (some of those students don't intend to leave their non-BL jobs), a huge number of students that want to do PI, and places the majority of its students in the most competitive market.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by QContinuum » Tue May 05, 2020 2:43 pm

TheChain wrote:I would pick any T13 over GULC, but I think the gap between GULC and some of the T13 schools is exaggerated. Just looking at big law placements doesn't take into account that GULC has: a large PT program (some of those students don't intend to leave their non-BL jobs), a huge number of students that want to do PI, and places the majority of its students in the most competitive market.
I take your point about the part-time program driving down Georgetown's numbers, but I don't think the other factors are as big. NYU, Michigan and Berkeley are also strongly PI-oriented. I don't think Georgetown is attracting way more PI students (as a percentage of its class) than NYU/Mich/Berk.

PI placement is also, in part, affected by a school's BIgLaw placement strength. At my T13, a majority or at least plurality of my classmates started 1L wanting to do PI. The lion's share of these folks were seduced by BigLaw at 2L OCI. If my T13 had weaker placement into BigLaw, it's likely a far larger percentage of my classmates would've stuck with their original PI plans.

Finally, while D.C.'s a competitive market, I'm not sure it's the "most" competitive market. The "most" competitive markets are high QoL cities with very few high-end legal jobs, like Austin or Denver. I don't think it's materially harder to land a solid D.C. BigLaw/fed gov job than a LA BigLaw job.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by TheChain » Tue May 05, 2020 3:43 pm

QContinuum wrote:
TheChain wrote:I would pick any T13 over GULC, but I think the gap between GULC and some of the T13 schools is exaggerated. Just looking at big law placements doesn't take into account that GULC has: a large PT program (some of those students don't intend to leave their non-BL jobs), a huge number of students that want to do PI, and places the majority of its students in the most competitive market.
I take your point about the part-time program driving down Georgetown's numbers, but I don't think the other factors are as big. NYU, Michigan and Berkeley are also strongly PI-oriented. I don't think Georgetown is attracting way more PI students (as a percentage of its class) than NYU/Mich/Berk.

PI placement is also, in part, affected by a school's BIgLaw placement strength. At my T13, a majority or at least plurality of my classmates started 1L wanting to do PI. The lion's share of these folks were seduced by BigLaw at 2L OCI. If my T13 had weaker placement into BigLaw, it's likely a far larger percentage of my classmates would've stuck with their original PI plans.

Finally, while D.C.'s a competitive market, I'm not sure it's the "most" competitive market. The "most" competitive markets are high QoL cities with very few high-end legal jobs, like Austin or Denver. I don't think it's materially harder to land a solid D.C. BigLaw/fed gov job than a LA BigLaw job.

I consider the three schools you listed above GULC. I don't see a big difference between GULC, Cornell, NU, and the schools outside the T14 that have solid placements (e.g. UCLA).

I've had a different experience with the PI folks. The PI folk that I met during 1L at GULC didn't even bother with OCI.

When I said most competitive, I meant to say most sought after. When I look at the employment summaries of HYS, the market placements diverge from the rest of the T14. I'm guessing that the HYS folks get to pick their markets, whereas the majority of T14 students don't have that choice. From the employment summaries, I gather that markets like Chicago (which is a big market) are less sought after.

My rambling isn't because I'm upset that people use T13 instead of T14. Both of those labels frustrate me. I think it's misleading to suggest that Cornell and Northwestern are closer to Colombia, than GULC is to Cornell and Northwestern.

I picked GULC under the T14 or bust mentality. I really regret doing that and wish I had considered lower ranking schools that also have good placement outcomes. To the 0Ls reading this comment, don't make my same mistake: Don't assume that Cornell is always a better choice than Georgetown. Don't assume that Georgetown is always a better choice than UCLA. When you examine the employment summaries, consider where and what you want to be doing after school.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by AdieuCali » Tue May 05, 2020 4:31 pm

I think it's worth throwing in an app at Yale. You're >50% GPA and a URM, so there's a chance you'll be admitted. Given your goals of clerking and academia, Yale is going to be your best option by far. According to their 509, Y accepted a transfer from UF (USNWR #41) last year.

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Re: GULC v. T-7

Post by plurilingue » Wed May 06, 2020 11:19 am

AdieuCali wrote:I think it's worth throwing in an app at Yale. You're >50% GPA and a URM, so there's a chance you'll be admitted. Given your goals of clerking and academia, Yale is going to be your best option by far. According to their 509, Y accepted a transfer from UF (USNWR #41) last year.
Sorry, I totally missed the URM part. Yes, this is correct: OP should definitely apply to Yale. I don't think URM status makes quite the same difference as for 1L admissions, but it's definitely worth the $80 to avoid wondering what would have happened later on.

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