Seriously Think About Transfering Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am 2/3L that transferred to CCN; from a #20-30 school. Transferring was the biggest mistake I have made in my law school career, by a mile. I cannot articulate enough how much I regret transferring for so many reasons.

First and most importantly if you want to work big law; the story that you can apply anywhere (geographically) is totally false. You have to apply to the school's local market. They are not national. Transfers do not get jobs outside of that market. Of the 5 other transfers I know 3 didn't get an offer from early interviews. The others got 1 and 2; both within the local market. Most non-transfers fare much, much better. The school is incredibly unhelpful throughout the process which is incredibly rushed. They provide no to little guidance on what to expect or how to bid in a market I and others were not familiar with. They make it sound like you could get a job outside of the area; to my knowledge no transfer my year the year below has.

The teachers are slightly better substantively but also total dicks; they are not available often during their office hours, my professor who is supposed to be mentoring me while I write a note has met with me twice for less than 10 minutes total; usually lucky to get one word responses when giving him an update on a project that's supposed to be a pretty big part of my degree and that I am supposed to be getting substantive feedback from him on. My favorite example is another professor who refused to record class when I was required to represent my school at an event.

You have no friends and no one wants to be your friend; no one wants to study with you; it is totally isolating and before you say its just me this has been the experience of most of the transfers I have talked to (n=5). Everyone has their 1l cliques and while I am not saying everyone hates transfers some people do. I have heard people talking shit about transfers multiple times. It sucks and it makes what is already challenging totally unbearable.

I honestly had fun and enjoyed my 1l year and now am probably going to drop out; so if you are happy seriously, seriously think about transferring. Just try to know what you are getting into and if you currently are happy don't do it. I made that mistake and I really regret it.

[QContinuum]

First, I want to begin by congratulating you on doing well enough to transfer up from the T1 to the T6. That's a terrific accomplishment and you should justly be very proud of yourself.

Now, a few notes:

First and most importantly if you want to work big law; the story that you can apply anywhere (geographically) is totally false. You have to apply to the school's local market. They are not national. Transfers do not get jobs outside of that market. Of the 5 other transfers I know 3 didn't get an offer from early interviews. The others got 1 and 2; both within the local market. Most non-transfers fare much, much better.

First, it's true as a general rule that transfers do worse than "native" 1Ls. This is because OCI employers generally view transfers as "top students at [insert old school]" instead of as "top students at [new school]" (after all, the transfers don't yet have a single grade from [new school] during OCI). The primary advantage of transferring up - which is particularly acute when transferring from a non-T13 to a T13 - is the access to a T13 OCI, which is typically attended by many more BigLaw employers and often includes a lottery component (instead of letting employers select the candidates they want to meet). That increased exposure in turn leads to better odds of getting a job. But again, transfers remain at a disadvantage relative to "native" 1Ls.

Second, it's not true by any stretch that any of CCN (or the T13 generally) are "regional." Now, if you transferred to Columbia or NYU, it may feel that way because - coincidentally - America's biggest legal market is NYC, and as a result that's the easiest market to secure a BigLaw gig in. But that's because NYC is NYC, not because Columbia/NYU are limited in reach. NYC would still be the easiest market to land BigLaw in even if - instead of transferring to Columbia/NYU - you'd transferred to Berkeley or Harvard or any of the other non-NYC T13s. IOW, this is a case of correlation, not causation.

The school is incredibly unhelpful throughout the process which is incredibly rushed. They provide no to little guidance on what to expect or how to bid in a market I and others were not familiar with. They make it sound like you could get a job outside of the area; to my knowledge no transfer my year the year below has.

I think it's generally true that schools' Career Services offices are often not very good at optimizing students' bidlists. Typically counselors are overly optimistic, and may tell even students with bad grades that (for example) they are safe to bid exclusively D.C. But there's also the odd counselor who'll be overly pessimistic. But this is why we have TLS to bridge the gap!

The teachers are slightly better substantively but also total dicks; they are not available often during their office hours, my professor who is supposed to be mentoring me while I write a note has met with me twice for less than 10 minutes total; usually lucky to get one word responses when giving him an update on a project that's supposed to be a pretty big part of my degree and that I am supposed to be getting substantive feedback from him on. My favorite example is another professor who refused to record class when I was required to represent my school at an event.

It's generally true at the T13 that the professors are more focused on their research and other pursuits than on teaching. This is because they were hired for their ability to publish, not their ability to teach. Folks attend the T13 for their job placement prowess, not for their instructional prowess. In fact the average T2/T3/T4 professor is likely to be much better at teaching the black-letter law than a T13 prof, because the average T13 prof will spend far more class time discussing theory and policy than the black-letter law. The idea is that T13 grads can/will learn the black-letter law from Barbri.

You have no friends and no one wants to be your friend; no one wants to study with you; it is totally isolating and before you say its just me this has been the experience of most of the transfers I have talked to (n=5). Everyone has their 1l cliques and while I am not saying everyone hates transfers some people do. I have heard people talking shit about transfers multiple times. It sucks and it makes what is already challenging totally unbearable.

I think it's true at any law school that folks tend to get into a comfortable groove with their 1L friends and become much more reluctant to open up to new friends in 2L/3L. Even as someone who didn't transfer, I found 2L fairly isolating because I took different classes than my 1L "clique" and my new classmates simply weren't interested in getting to know me. Of course I still hung out with my 1L friends outside class, but there was a huge difference going from seeing all of my friends in every class to sitting in a sea of unsociable strangers in every class.

As for studying together, though, I think it's less a function of you being excluded from study groups and more a function of study groups simply being very rare in 2L/3L - at least this was the case at my T13. I don't even think there were that many study groups in 1L.

I honestly had fun and enjoyed my 1l year and now am probably going to drop out; so if you are happy seriously, seriously think about transferring. Just try to know what you are getting into and if you currently are happy don't do it. I made that mistake and I really regret it.

I hope you don't make any rash decisions. Please take advantage of any mental health/counseling support services your school may provide. You're already almost done with 2L - the end is near!

[BrainsyK]

OP, if you're at Columbia, I'm willing to be your friend. Totally serious. PM me your email, and let's hang out. Granted, I'm not the most interesting of people, but hey, I certainly don't hate transfers and can introduce you to others whom I assure you also do not hate transfers.

[cavalier1138]

In addition to everything Q said (which is all correct), your issues with professors have nothing to do with transferring. Many professors are not readily available for students (even their RAs) due to their work, and I've seen plenty of professors with blanket "no-recording" policies. They're not developing these policies because of your student status, and I guarantee that there were similar teachers at the school you left.

That said, I think your core point is correct. If you're a top performer at a school ranked in the 20s--and especially if you have a scholarship--there is little benefit to be gained from transferring up. But that's not because CCN are "local" schools. It's because you're sacrificing a lot of money to probably not end up better than you would have without the transfer.

[MSUN5]

I'm a 1L at a T30, currently trying to transfer to Columbia/NYU--3.79, top 6%, cross your fingers for me this semester--and I tell you what OP: if I'm lucky enough to get in this summer I promise I will be your friend next year. You can take that to the bank,

[CommonLawTort]

You have no friends and no one wants to be your friend; no one wants to study with you; it is totally isolating and before you say its just me this has been the experience of most of the transfers I have talked to (n=5). Everyone has their 1l cliques and while I am not saying everyone hates transfers some people do. I have heard people talking shit about transfers multiple times. It sucks and it makes what is already challenging totally unbearable.

I honestly had fun and enjoyed my 1l year and now am probably going to drop out; so if you are happy seriously, seriously think about transferring. Just try to know what you are getting into and if you currently are happy don't do it. I made that mistake and I really regret it.

Sorry to hear this OP. But remember, you didn't transfer to make new friends. You transferred because you thought it would help your career. I understand you didn't get your dream SA, and, I didn't either, but I ended up really liking the one firm firm that gave me an offer.

As for the social scene, these are all big schools. Yes, many students can be condescending to transfers or to students without an amazing resume, but if you keep up your head up, and are willing to at least try and meet people whenever social events arise, I think you can find enough friends to make this experience somewhat worthwhile.

If you're not comfortable with this, you don't have to follow me here; but one thing that has made my CCN transfer experience a lot of more enjoyable was raising my hand and participating in class. If you've already done this and it hasn't done anything for you, then all good. But if you haven't just try it out. You may be surprised at how effective it can be at getting you to meet new people.

[QContinuum]

As for the social scene, these are all big schools. Yes, many students can be condescending to transfers or to students without an amazing resume, but if you keep up your head up, and are willing to at least try and meet people whenever social events arise, I think you can find enough friends to make this experience somewhat worthwhile.

The above can't be emphasized strongly enough. CCN are all huge law schools with huge student bodies. Yes, to make new friends OP will likely have to go the extra mile beyond simply showing up for class and hoping they end up with seatmates who want to be friends. But it's not hard to go the extra mile - join student orgs, go to bar review, get involved in pro bono work, do clinics or internships or upper-year moot court, mix and mingle at law school events. Folks are much more social than they are in the classroom (where most students dash in at the very last minute (if not late) and stampede to the exits the minute class ends (if not before)). At all of CCN there are student orgs to suit almost everyone. Interested in politics? There's FedSoc and ACS. Human rights? Check. International law? Check. Business law? Check. Corporate law? Check. Arbitration or mediation? Check. IP law? Check. Are you a woman, LGBTQ, non-WASP, a first-generation professional, an older student, or have a family? There's at least one affinity group you'll qualify to join. And let's not forget the "pure fun" groups either... Enjoy sports? There's at least one group for that. Food? Yep. The outdoors? Yep. The arts? Yep. Board or video gaming? Yep.

[Internationalist]

Fellow T1 -> CCN transfer here (I suspect a different CCN) and respectfully disagree what OP said. I transferred a few years ago so take this with that grain of salt. Before I do so, OP please feel free to PM me if you want to talk about your new school and ways to improve your experience so you don't drop out. You've already worked very hard and it would be a shame to let that go.

First, getting big law. I was pretty involved with my transfer class (more on that below) and just about everyone got a big law job from a high caliber firm. The exception was someone with a non-STEM PhD who admitted they were a terrible interviewer. I think they worked in a fed agency over the summer and then secured during a big law job during 3L OCI. Admittedly, there are a few firms have a clear anti-transfer bias (looking at you WLRK and GDC). Your interview experience, like everyone else at OCI, will depend on your interviewer(s). Some will admire your fortitude in trading up, others will show disdain for attending a not-so-elite school 1L. As far as getting a job outside of NY or Chicago, I haven't heard of anyone having trouble SPECIFICALLY because they were a transfer. Anyone who had a connection or reason to be in their non-NY or Chicago market was able to get a job there. I, and several other transfers, work outside of our school's home market so please don't let that deter you from transferring.

Second, the teachers. Yeah I can't really argue with that, they can be divas. I tried reaching out to profs about research projects and was generally ignored. My advice for future transfers would be to sign up for seminars, rather than large or medium classes. If there is a prof you want to work with as a transfer, but you have to play it smart.

Third, the social life. Echoing what a few others have said, large schools are fairly large communities that usually have something for everyone. I'm also pretty sure each CCN has transfer student groups. That being said, you have to make friends, they aren't going to come to you. My transfer class was pretty diverse geographically, whereas I was pretty familiar with the area, so I organized a ton of activities for transfers. Some participated, some didn't, NBD. Some had a bunch of friends outside of law school while others seamlessly integrated with the "native" students. Everyone did their own thing but, aside from that, I don't think anyone will choose not to hang out or study with you just because you're a transfer. Again, law schools are big and you're only going to get out of it what you put into it.

There are obviously downsides (loss of 1L prof connections, potential loss of 1L friends, moving to a new place, $$) but the reasons above should not deter you from transferring.

[QContinuum]

Some had a bunch of friends outside of law school while others seamlessly integrated with the "native" students. Everyone did their own thing but, aside from that, I don't think anyone will choose not to hang out or study with you just because you're a transfer. Again, law schools are big and you're only going to get out of it what you put into it.

Just to respond to this, since I think it strikes at one of the main issues OP raised - that no one wants to befriend him because of his transfer status - I could very well see a few students out of a J.D. class of >1000 folks with a prejudice against transfer students. Just as I'm sure there are a few racists, and sexists, and ageists, and what have you. But I categorically disagree with any idea that anywhere close to a plurality (let alone majority) of CCN students are prejudiced against transfers. I've never come across anyone who viewed their transfer classmates as somehow "lesser" or otherwise inferior. Again, I'm sure there will inevitably be a few exceptions, but no one contemplating a non-T13 to T13 transfer should worry or fear that they'll be up against a hostile, resentful crowd the moment they "out" themselves as a transfer.

The key is to put yourself out there (especially as you wouldn't have a preexisting circle of 1L friends to fall back on). It's very easy for someone focused on studying and doing well in class to become kind of a wallflower and be present in the law school without ever really being acknowledged. I've seen it happen even to a few of my 1L classmates - they never really offended anyone or anything, they just never really made an effort to get to know people and ended up being pretty lonely.