Lower T14 with 4.0. Transfer options? Forum

[omgomghi]

Grades came back, and I got straight As. Not sure about rank yet. I'm at a lower T14, and quite happy.

Problem is, I'm basically paying sticker. If I'm paying sticker anyway, I'm thinking a transfer to H/Y might make sense (if I can get in, obviously). I didn't apply to either, if that matters.

Really, I'd prefer to stay put, but get some real $$. What are my best options? What are my odds at top-3? How can I get my current school to offer me more $$?

I feel lucky to be in this position, but I wasn't expecting this and want to make sure I make the most of it. Thanks!

[yyyuppp]

if the highest GPA is a 4.0 at your school, then you are very likely in at H/Y if you keep up your grades, if not still probably H (i really don't know anything about yale Transfers). You likely have a good shot at H even if you drop to 5-10%. I don't know what the need-based aid situation is at Yale, but there is a chance you will get some merit based aid at H depending on age/financial situation (if you're over 29 then it will be a good amount).

You can try negotiating with your school for some scholarship. Some schools will give money to keep transfers if they can, some won't (I think Cornell doesn't). You can maybe gauge this by sending an email to whoever controls that at your school and say something like "I did well, and while i understand scholarship money is not abundant, i would like to investigate the chances of receiving some merit aid given my grades and the fact that you have given me NO money and i am going into massive debt" (say it nicer).

of course, getting those grades again is hard, so keep working and good luck.

[NoDayButToday]

Definitely worth the app to Harvard or Yale -- you're probably a shoe-in for both if you maintain that. Definitely for Harvard, likely Yale. If you get in and your feelings have changed, go for it; if you still wanna stay put, leverage the heck out of them for more $ to stay. You're the student in your class that has a shot for the best federal circuit clerkships and other top accolades at the moment, so they might very well try to throw money at you. If they don't, well, you seem happy where you are. You can let it slide and stay, or you can leave for something new. You have the ultimate win-win. Congratulations and great work!

[CFC1524]

PM'd.

[ExperssioUnius]

Leveraging for money once at a school is pretty challenging because the money has to come from somewhere. I was somewhat in your position with a GPA above 3.85 after first semester and no financial help and got no where. Your best hope is that someone in your year who is getting funding drops out or transfers themselves to free up funding relative to your year.

Regarding transfer prospects, they are very high. Keep up the grades this semester. Depending on which lower T-14 school you are coming from, just consider the difference in cost of living. Paying an extra $1,000 a month for equivalent housing in Boston compared to say Durham, Ithaca, or Charlottesville is not an insignificant consideration if your primary motivation for transferring is the funding situation.

[lavarman84]

It's worth a try to get scholarship money, and it might be worth it if you are eligible for need-based aid at HYS. But if you're not going to get money at HYS, staying put is your best option. Giving up a 4.0 from a t14 isn't something that I'd consider a great plan unless you're going to get quite a bit more money at one of the top three schools.

[sparty99]

It's worth a try to get scholarship money, and it might be worth it if you are eligible for need-based aid at HYS. But if you're not going to get money at HYS, staying put is your best option. Giving up a 4.0 from a t14 isn't something that I'd consider a great plan unless you're going to get quite a bit more money at one of the top three schools.

You should also consider applying to general scholarships (that might be offered at your University or the numerous scholarship programs out there) and if you are a minority, diversity programs. Actually, you should apply to these even if you are a white male.

[omgomghi]

Thanks for all the advice. Reviving this thread...

Does anyone know what H/Y/S will look at in terms of income when considering need-based aid? Do they only look at the last year (which would be ideal, since I've been in school making no money)?

[PorscheFanatic]

I don't have experience with this, but maybe someone else can comment...if HYS won't give you aid, and your school won't, what about trying to transfer to a mid T14 like Penn, NYU, etc. and seeing if they'll give you money?

[devilblue]

If I were you, I wouldn't even consider transferring. At a lower t14 with a 4.0 GPA the same doors are open to you as are open to the HYS kids. When you transfer, you lose much of the benefit of your GPA at OCI. Think about it, you'd be NUMBER ONE at your TOP LAW SCHOOL. So, when Cravath comes to your school, they're looking for the few kids in your position. Think about when you transfer to Harvard and Cravath goes to Harvard . . . you're not shit at Harvard, so Cravath isn't drooling over you like they would be at Cornell, Northwestern, etc. OCI.

You've worked hard to separate yourself and you risk throwing a lot of that away by transferring.

A final consideration. There are some doors that are open to you for having a high GPA at a lower T14 that aren't open to the average student at HYS (and I'm thinking that's how you'd be considered if you transferred to one of those schools) or even many above-average students there. I know you don't go to Duke because your grading system has letters where ours is straight numerical. But, if you went to Duke, the 4.0 GPA is huge for example if you want to work at Williams & Connolly. For some reason (a certain partner there), W&C and Duke have a huge connection where like 4-5 Duke gets get offers at W&C every year. You'd be high up in the running at Duke for one of those spots, and because of Duke's unique set-up there, your 4.0 at Duke would likely be even more valuable than a high GPA from a HYS (or at least equivalent). Consider your goals carefully before making your decision because I'm sure every school has unique situations like this out there.

[omgomghi]

If I were you, I wouldn't even consider transferring. At a lower t14 with a 4.0 GPA the same doors are open to you as are open to the HYS kids. When you transfer, you lose much of the benefit of your GPA at OCI. Think about it, you'd be NUMBER ONE at your TOP LAW SCHOOL. So, when Cravath comes to your school, they're looking for the few kids in your position. Think about when you transfer to Harvard and Cravath goes to Harvard . . . you're not shit at Harvard, so Cravath isn't drooling over you like they would be at Cornell, Northwestern, etc. OCI.

You've worked hard to separate yourself and you risk throwing a lot of that away by transferring.

A final consideration. There are some doors that are open to you for having a high GPA at a lower T14 that aren't open to the average student at HYS (and I'm thinking that's how you'd be considered if you transferred to one of those schools) or even many above-average students there. I know you don't go to Duke because your grading system has letters where ours is straight numerical. But, if you went to Duke, the 4.0 GPA is huge for example if you want to work at Williams & Connolly. For some reason (a certain partner there), W&C and Duke have a huge connection where like 4-5 Duke gets get offers at W&C every year. You'd be high up in the running at Duke for one of those spots, and because of Duke's unique set-up there, your 4.0 at Duke would likely be even more valuable than a high GPA from a HYS (or at least equivalent). Consider your goals carefully before making your decision because I'm sure every school has unique situations like this out there.

These are all excellent points. Thank you.

My goals are a bit different, however -- I'm not looking for big law (to the point where I won't even be participating in OCI). I feel like I may be one of the rare cases where transferring makes sense, particularly if HYS involves a significant discount from what I'm paying.

That being said, staying put is absolutely still my preference. But I don't know if I can justify turning down the money...

[pancakes3]

i can't think of a single entry level law job where having HYS on the diploma would trump T14 valedictorian. academia isn't in play, so what's the gameplan? try to lateral into HBS?

[omgomghi]

i can't think of a single entry level law job where having HYS on the diploma would trump T14 valedictorian. academia isn't in play, so what's the gameplan? try to lateral into HBS?

Fair. But does top at T14 trump HYS with an extra X dollars, where X could be substantial (still trying to figure out how substantial)?

No HBS haha

[Mr. Blackacre]

i can't think of a single entry level law job where having HYS on the diploma would trump T14 valedictorian. academia isn't in play, so what's the gameplan? try to lateral into HBS?

Fair. But does top at T14 trump HYS with an extra X dollars, where X could be substantial (still trying to figure out how substantial)?

No HBS haha

If HYS admits you with money I'd be surprised if you couldn't leverage that at least a little bit with your current school. And even if your school didn't match, transferring to HYS, though economically preferable (gonna discount the cost of moving here), would put you in at best the same, and more likely a worse situation when applying to basically any kind of legal job.

W/ top of the class at a T14 you should have your pick of big law, PI, clerkships, gvt, basically everything. You are more interesting to employers than 75%+ of HYS students, and you have probably built at least some connections at the school. It makes little sense to uproot yourself and lose all that, even for HYS.

TLDR: devilblue is right. Unless the $$ difference is something stupid, which also plays to how conservative you are w/ money and debt. I wouldn't do it for a 10 or maybe even 20k/year difference, assuming similar CoL. Past that it becomes a different story.

[Person1111]

What are your post-law school goals if not private practice? Do you want to be an academic? Does your school do an OK job of placing feeder COA/SCOTUS clerks?

My sense is that a 4.0 from a T14 is more valuable/appealing to employers than a random HYS student, or even a good/great HYS student. (I'm an HLS alum and I would pick the #1 or #2 at a T14 over someone who graduated magna from HLS, all things being equal.) You also have the benefit of having a year of making connections and having your professors/administration behind you, which can be huge if you are trying to get a SCOTUS clerkship, break into academic hiring, get a unicorn government job, etc.

$ is a factor, but I don't think you will get more of it by transferring to HYS. But you might get more $ from your school - potentially much more money - by leveraging an acceptance from H/Y.

[omgomghi]

What are your post-law school goals if not private practice? Do you want to be an academic? Does your school do an OK job of placing feeder COA/SCOTUS clerks?

My sense is that a 4.0 from a T14 is more valuable/appealing to employers than a random HYS student, or even a good/great HYS student. (I'm an HLS alum and I would pick the #1 or #2 at a T14 over someone who graduated magna from HLS, all things being equal.) You also have the benefit of having a year of making connections and having your professors/administration behind you, which can be huge if you are trying to get a SCOTUS clerkship, break into academic hiring, get a unicorn government job, etc.

$ is a factor, but I don't think you will get more of it by transferring to HYS. But you might get more $ from your school - potentially much more money - by leveraging an acceptance from H/Y.

I plan on working in a small practice. Job is already lined up. Only other thing I'm looking for immediately out of school is clerkships, and that's definitely a worry I have in leaving my school -- I'm pretty sure I'll be better off with placement because of prof. relationships here.

I'm also a bit older, and from what I've heard there could be substantial need aid at H/Y at least, because they won't consider parental income. It would be doubly cool if they also don't look at my income from before law school.

Really appreciate your perspective, thank you.

[Person1111]

What are your post-law school goals if not private practice? Do you want to be an academic? Does your school do an OK job of placing feeder COA/SCOTUS clerks?

My sense is that a 4.0 from a T14 is more valuable/appealing to employers than a random HYS student, or even a good/great HYS student. (I'm an HLS alum and I would pick the #1 or #2 at a T14 over someone who graduated magna from HLS, all things being equal.) You also have the benefit of having a year of making connections and having your professors/administration behind you, which can be huge if you are trying to get a SCOTUS clerkship, break into academic hiring, get a unicorn government job, etc.

$ is a factor, but I don't think you will get more of it by transferring to HYS. But you might get more $ from your school - potentially much more money - by leveraging an acceptance from H/Y.

I plan on working in a small practice. Job is already lined up. Only other thing I'm looking for immediately out of school is clerkships, and that's definitely a worry I have in leaving my school -- I'm pretty sure I'll be better off with placement because of prof. relationships here.

I'm also a bit older, and from what I've heard there could be substantial need aid at H/Y at least, because they won't consider parental income. It would be doubly cool if they also don't look at my income from before law school.

Really appreciate your perspective, thank you.

Happy to help. Fundamentally, if what you want is a COA/District Court/State Supreme Court clerkship with a judge who will be a good mentor and boss, you can do that with your grades from any T14 school. And it can't hurt to apply for H/Y, even if you don't ultimately end up transferring.