Harvard --> NYU Forum

[Anonymous User]

While I like the academic atmosphere here, I'm too unhappy with every other aspect to stay put for a full three.

My ambitions are not a factor here. I don't need an "impressive" (b/c I think NYU is plenty impressive, actually) degree and an incredible job; I don't come from that kind of world and I don't want that kind of life. But I will need *a* job and I don't want it to seem to potential employers like I couldn't cut it here at H.

I've never seen this kind of a post before, so forgive me if it's been done.

[dabigchina]

Don't do it. You're going to have a hell of a time trying to explain to employers why you transferred.

Also, nobody likes their school during 1L. That's just 1L. Stick it out.

[Blackfish]

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[Redfactor]

I had a peer study at HLS for his 3L year and had those credits applied towards the degree from our law school. Things like this are possible. If you can't deal with the environment, you might consider talking with your administration to see what your options are.

[TheDapperDruid]

To address your question, between explaining it to future potential employers and whatever COA you'd be paying as a transfer, it's likely not worthwhile to transfer.

Maybe things will improve as the semester goes on? You're only a month into 1L. There's plenty of time for things to improve.

However, as for the above comments regarding 1L, maybe I just got lucky, but I've found everyone, and I mean pretty much everyone, to be pretty great where I'm attending. There do seem to be a few people who want to voice their thoughts every class, but it doesn't seem to come from a gunner mentality. I honestly can't imagine having met a better group of people to spend 1L with. I'm sure that 1L is a trying time wherever you are in regard to the workload, but a great group of people makes it more than bearable.

So, I don't buy the idea that 1L is a terrible social experience no matter where you are, but, as I said, you've got plenty of time to see where things go. Just don't give up on trying to engage with your fellow 1L's so soon.

[dabigchina]

To address your question, between explaining it to future potential employers and whatever COA you'd be paying as a transfer, it's likely not worthwhile to transfer.

Maybe things will improve as the semester goes on? You're only a month into 1L. There's plenty of time for things to improve.

However, as for the above comments regarding 1L, maybe I just got lucky, but I've found everyone, and I mean pretty much everyone, to be pretty great where I'm attending. There do seem to be a few people who want to voice their thoughts every class, but it doesn't seem to come from a gunner mentality. I honestly can't imagine having met a better group of people to spend 1L with. I'm sure that 1L is a trying time wherever you are in regard to the workload, but a great group of people makes it more than bearable.

So, I don't buy the idea that 1L is a terrible social experience no matter where you are, but, as I said, you've got plenty of time to see where things go. Just don't give up on trying to engage with your fellow 1L's so soon.

I'm glad you feel this way but many, if not most, people don't. OP is obviously not enjoying 1L. This does not suggest that there is something wrong with OP or his school.

[Wild Card]

I'm at NYU, and it's OK, but it's strictly business. And that's the case everywhere. What were you expecting? Intellectual and spiritual depth?

[landshoes]

Wow, I love going to school where I'm at, I don't think 1L is universally 100% miserable. It was stressful, sure, but I liked the other students and felt like I fit in. I think that's worthwhile.

OP, if your grades at HLS are decent no one will think you left because you couldn't "hack it." I mean, they might, because lawyers can be dumb, but whatever.

At OCI or during the job search you would benefit from having a good reason for transferring besides "I hated HLS" if you can find one, so ideally you'd have a fiancé in NYC or something similar.

[ValeVale]

You're a month in. Talk to 2Ls and 3Ls about what you're going through. I'm a 2L at HLS, and if you'd like to talk to someone feel free to reach out to me. I was unhappy at times but very glad I am here.

[RaceJudicata]

Stick it out at Harvard for this year, land your biglaw gig (or whatever you are gunning for), and then muscle through 2L. You will probably have found your niche at that point and be totally content. If you still hate it during 2L, go ahead and apply to be a visiting student at another school (NYU or elsewhere).

[zhenders]

Do what feels right for you. A bunch of people who can't imagine you turning away from THEIR dream shouldn't impact what works for you. I have friends who transferred "up", and who transferred "down." Most law students simply don't have the perspective and maturity to prioritize their own happiness. Don't make the same mistake. That said, do try to confirm that NYU will improve your situation, if you choose to make the switch.

[t-14orbust]

There is a program to do your 3L at Berkeley if that interests you. Don't transfer bruh

[Jchance]

Agree, do visiting student during 3L or study abroad, 2 years is more doable than 3 full years.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thank you for the responses. I'll see how I feel after the first semester. I havent ruled out the possibilIty of just dropping out and going to school in NYC part time.

Do what feels right for you. A bunch of people who can't imagine you turning away from THEIR dream shouldn't impact what works for you. I have friends who transferred "up", and who transferred "down." Most law students simply don't have the perspective and maturity to prioritize their own happiness. Don't make the same mistake. That said, do try to confirm that NYU will improve your situation, if you choose to make the switch.

Thank you, in particular. Part of the issue is that I'm older and don't connect as well with my classmates. I feel like your perspective really changes from mid 20s to early 30s...

One of the things I was adamant about re: attending law school was that I wouldn't give up my adult life. I was unhappy with where I lived when I was getting a graduate degree; when you are 25, though, you feel like you have all the time in the world. What's a few years? You just push on through

I thought it would be easier, to be honest. Figured I could just focus on academics and plow through. But they have it set up here in such a way that you spend all the time around all of the same people every day for six hours. And when those people all seem to be in such a different stage in their lives... Being in a sea of people with whom you can't seem to relate is far lonelier than just being alone.

ETA: Responses here are kind telling re: age. if most people hate 1L, that's probably not reflective of my situation...

[heythatslife]

I'm just genuinely curious as to what it is about NYU that OP thinks is better than HLS.

they have it set up here in such a way that you spend all the time around all of the same people every day for six hours. And when those people all seem to be in such a different stage in their lives

This will be the same for most people at NYU as it is at Harvard. The student demographic is almost identical, and the 1L curriculum there is set up in much the same way. Granted, NYU is in Manhattan so it's easier to access certain things and meet people outside of school, but it's not like Harvard is in the middle of nowhere either - Boston's a pretty vibrant metropolitan area too, with its share of young professionals in their 30s. And there are plenty of people at HLS who have friends and lives outside of law school and Harvard.

I'm not entirely convinced that the dissatisfaction you're experiencing now will be resolved by moving to another law school in a different city (unless it happens that your support network already exists there). Seems to me more like a "law school problem" than an "HLS problem." But I think once you get settled into the routine and find the time and presence of mind to go out and meet people more like yourself and do non-law school activities, you'll be feeling better. Personally, I feel that being at HLS gave me more freedom to do those things because in most instances, the worst you can do is a P on a final if you decide you don't really find a subject engaging enough to invest too much time into it.

[landshoes]

I'm just genuinely curious as to what it is about NYU that OP thinks is better than HLS.

they have it set up here in such a way that you spend all the time around all of the same people every day for six hours. And when those people all seem to be in such a different stage in their lives

This will be the same for most people at NYU as it is at Harvard. The student demographic is almost identical, and the 1L curriculum there is set up in much the same way. Granted, NYU is in Manhattan so it's easier to access certain things and meet people outside of school, but it's not like Harvard is in the middle of nowhere either - Boston's a pretty vibrant metropolitan area too, with its share of young professionals in their 30s. And there are plenty of people at HLS who have friends and lives outside of law school and Harvard.

I'm not entirely convinced that the dissatisfaction you're experiencing now will be resolved by moving to another law school in a different city (unless it happens that your support network already exists there). Seems to me more like a "law school problem" than an "HLS problem." But I think once you get settled into the routine and find the time and presence of mind to go out and meet people more like yourself and do non-law school activities, you'll be feeling better. Personally, I feel that being at HLS gave me more freedom to do those things because in most instances, the worst you can do is a P on a final if you decide you don't really find a subject engaging enough to invest too much time into it.

No it's not. Boston is all people in college or grad school who only socialize with other people in college or grad school (at their particular school, natch). Or, they're married with 3 perfect children who all went to MIT for preschool. And they still only socialize with the people they went to school with. I can see it being awful for a single 30 year old who isn't going to school with other 30 year olds.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I was really worried about the classmate thing when I started law school (can pretty much guarantee that I started at an older age than you, OP - I was pretty much 10-15 years older than everyone) and was actually very pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to get along with them. But obviously that's me and I don't know anything else about your personal situation. I would just be really surprised if there weren't other nontrads at a similar stage to you at your school - you may just have to search for them.

(Also I think people can be a little manic/tightly wound at the start of 1L, and things get better second semester.)

I think if you have some reason to think NY is really going to be better for you, life is short, do what makes you happy. Doing the visiting student thing 3L might be best, but transferring isn't going to be the end of the world. I agree with others that it's not clear whether your problem is really Harvard as opposed to law school generally, but again, I don't know all the details of your experience so that's just based on what you mention here.

(FWIW I didn't hate 1L - the learning curve was a drag and change is often hard but I didn't hate it at all. Lots of people do hate 1L, lots of people don't. If it's a function of having moved away from the places/people you know and care about in NYC - I'm just guessing - I think it takes more than 6 weeks to adjust to moving. But going back is certainly an option too.)

[bwh8813]

I'm just genuinely curious as to what it is about NYU that OP thinks is better than HLS.

they have it set up here in such a way that you spend all the time around all of the same people every day for six hours. And when those people all seem to be in such a different stage in their lives

This will be the same for most people at NYU as it is at Harvard. The student demographic is almost identical, and the 1L curriculum there is set up in much the same way. Granted, NYU is in Manhattan so it's easier to access certain things and meet people outside of school, but it's not like Harvard is in the middle of nowhere either - Boston's a pretty vibrant metropolitan area too, with its share of young professionals in their 30s. And there are plenty of people at HLS who have friends and lives outside of law school and Harvard.

I'm not entirely convinced that the dissatisfaction you're experiencing now will be resolved by moving to another law school in a different city (unless it happens that your support network already exists there). Seems to me more like a "law school problem" than an "HLS problem." But I think once you get settled into the routine and find the time and presence of mind to go out and meet people more like yourself and do non-law school activities, you'll be feeling better. Personally, I feel that being at HLS gave me more freedom to do those things because in most instances, the worst you can do is a P on a final if you decide you don't really find a subject engaging enough to invest too much time into it.

No it's not. Boston is all people in college or grad school who only socialize with other people in college or grad school (at their particular school, natch). Or, they're married with 3 perfect children who all went to MIT for preschool. And they still only socialize with the people they went to school with. I can see it being awful for a single 30 year old who isn't going to school with other 30 year olds.

Having gone to law school in my 30s in Boston, I concur wholeheartedly with this assessment. I'm very happy to be back in NYC, where I worked and lived prior to law school.

OP, NYU is still a great school. If you do well, I doubt you'll really have many issues, especially if you have ties to NYC to help the narrative.

[2TimesTheCharm]

If you do, you'll be in good company. Didn't Justice Ginsburg transfer from Harvard to Columbia?

[jbagelboy]

I'm just genuinely curious as to what it is about NYU that OP thinks is better than HLS.

they have it set up here in such a way that you spend all the time around all of the same people every day for six hours. And when those people all seem to be in such a different stage in their lives

This will be the same for most people at NYU as it is at Harvard. The student demographic is almost identical, and the 1L curriculum there is set up in much the same way. Granted, NYU is in Manhattan so it's easier to access certain things and meet people outside of school, but it's not like Harvard is in the middle of nowhere either - Boston's a pretty vibrant metropolitan area too, with its share of young professionals in their 30s. And there are plenty of people at HLS who have friends and lives outside of law school and Harvard.

I'm not entirely convinced that the dissatisfaction you're experiencing now will be resolved by moving to another law school in a different city (unless it happens that your support network already exists there). Seems to me more like a "law school problem" than an "HLS problem." But I think once you get settled into the routine and find the time and presence of mind to go out and meet people more like yourself and do non-law school activities, you'll be feeling better. Personally, I feel that being at HLS gave me more freedom to do those things because in most instances, the worst you can do is a P on a final if you decide you don't really find a subject engaging enough to invest too much time into it.

OP: Give this a couple months and see if you feel differently. This might be a temporary emotional reaction.

I do feel the post above is a bit dismissive. Being in New York is very very different from living in Cambridge, which can be a very depressing place for the wrong type of person. (Two acquaintences committed suicide in Cambridge and one college friend came close, and I lived through winters in Belmont, which has colored my perception). It never happens on TLS but people do transfer into NYU/CLS to be in the city, usually for relationship purposes but for other quality of life factors as well.

I agree that transfering from one big law school to another probably won't change your academic experience or how you feel about school. If it's about the law school itself, meh--I'd stick it out. If being in NY itself and the change of scenery would be an asset, then transferring could make sense for you. It will have very little impact on your career or opportunities at this point, although I do cringe at the thought of declining the presumably sizable scholarship you received from T6 schools to attend HLS and then moving to the T6 at sticker.

[Nebby]

I think this problem is entirely of your own making, tbh

[lawlorbust]

If you do, you'll be in good company. Didn't Justice Ginsburg transfer from Harvard to Columbia?

The whims of the patriarchy is really the only conceivable reason for making the move.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just genuinely curious as to what it is about NYU that OP thinks is better than HLS.

they have it set up here in such a way that you spend all the time around all of the same people every day for six hours. And when those people all seem to be in such a different stage in their lives

This will be the same for most people at NYU as it is at Harvard. The student demographic is almost identical, and the 1L curriculum there is set up in much the same way. Granted, NYU is in Manhattan so it's easier to access certain things and meet people outside of school, but it's not like Harvard is in the middle of nowhere either - Boston's a pretty vibrant metropolitan area too, with its share of young professionals in their 30s. And there are plenty of people at HLS who have friends and lives outside of law school and Harvard.

I'm not entirely convinced that the dissatisfaction you're experiencing now will be resolved by moving to another law school in a different city (unless it happens that your support network already exists there). Seems to me more like a "law school problem" than an "HLS problem." But I think once you get settled into the routine and find the time and presence of mind to go out and meet people more like yourself and do non-law school activities, you'll be feeling better. Personally, I feel that being at HLS gave me more freedom to do those things because in most instances, the worst you can do is a P on a final if you decide you don't really find a subject engaging enough to invest too much time into it.

The fact that NYU is located in NYC, because this:

No it's not. Boston is all people in college or grad school who only socialize with other people in college or grad school (at their particular school, natch). Or, they're married with 3 perfect children who all went to MIT for preschool. And they still only socialize with the people they went to school with. I can see it being awful for a single 30 year old who isn't going to school with other 30 year olds.

Having gone to law school in my 30s in Boston, I concur wholeheartedly with this assessment. I'm very happy to be back in NYC, where I worked and lived prior to law school.

OP, NYU is still a great school. If you do well, I doubt you'll really have many issues, especially if you have ties to NYC to help the narrative.

Being in New York is very very different from living in Cambridge, which can be a very depressing place for the wrong type of person. (Two acquaintences committed suicide in Cambridge and one college friend came close, and I lived through winters in Belmont, which has colored my perception). It never happens on TLS but people do transfer into NYU/CLS to be in the city, usually for relationship purposes but for other quality of life factors as well.

I think anyone who lived in and loved NYC can tell you that Boston's similarities are few.

And to clarify, Harvard is a wonderful school. As I thought I had intimated, I LIKE law school. I do not love the rest of my life here. If NYU is no different from Harvard apart from its location, then I think I will be very happy there, as I was happy with life in NYC, and I am happy with the law school curriculum/being a law student. My studies are my reprieve.

I think this problem is entirely of your own making, tbh

Well, yes; I should have gone to NYU. Astute observation, Nebby. Are you a Harvard 1L, too?

[Anonymous User]

Thank you everyone for the advice and understanding. I'm definitely going to be moving forward with a visiting year as a 3L if it is at all possible.

<3.

[unlicensedpotato]

If you do, you'll be in good company. Didn't Justice Ginsburg transfer from Harvard to Columbia?

RBG's husband also had to switch from teaching tax at NYU to Georgetown when she got SCOTUS. The horror.