Berkeley to S/Y/H? Forum

[rpupkin]

I honestly think that there is no harm to transferring here. Top of the class at Boalt is still a notch below top of the class at HYS due to the obvious lesser concentration of very top talent; as such, I don't think that this person would be considered within the top 10% of HYS. But top 10-20%? That seems very fair to me, and W&C/WLRK would seriously consider that resume. If this person continues performing at this level at HYS, it's conceivable s/he could develop a top 10% HYS resume and the kinds of connections that could carry him/her to SCOTUS or legal academia. (This latter reason is, by the way, the reason s/he should be highlighting in his/her transfer admissions essays. Adcoms love this.)

First, I agree that there is no harm to transferring with regard to law firms. But what about clerkships, which is what most of us are talking about? If a student is interested in "SCOTUS or legal academia," a feeder clerkship would do more for a Virginia/Berkeley/Michigan student than would transferring to HYS. And I have yet to hear anyone explain how transferring to HYS would help land a clerkship with a feeder. On the contrary, it would almost certainly hurt the applicant's chances.

I agree with your statement to the extent that it is quite difficult -- although far from impossible -- to replicate the kind of faculty connections needed to get an extremely high prestige judicial clerkship (feeder/CADC/SCOTUS; a tier above normal CA9/CA2). But those connections are, quite frankly, available in greater abundance at HLS and YLS. As such, I'm not convinced that someone who is dead set on gunning through the rest of law school would necessarily hurt their chances at these schools -- especially YLS -- given their edge in placement into both of these.

As I wrote upthread in response to one of Thircelawyer's posts, I think this assessment was accurate five or ten years ago, when clerkship hiring occurred during 3L year. But now pretty much every feeder judge hires based on two or three semesters of grades. So, yes, YLS has a dramatic overall edge in feeder placement, but that edge does not help a transfer, because the transfer doesn't have time to take advantage of the connections that create the edge. Meanwhile, the transfer has discarded the faculty and institutional support they would have enjoyed had they stayed at their 1L school. At a Top-10 non-HYS school, the faculty and the administration rally around the top-of-the-class students to get them choice clerkships. At YLS, by contrast, the transfer is just one of 200 students. The YLS faculty will, of course, be going to bat for the students they got to know during their 1L year.

No, it's not impossible to land a feeder clerkship as a transfer to HYS or YLS--it happens sometimes--but it's harder. And given the huge upside to clerking for a feeder, I don't know why top-of-the-class T10 students would choose to steepen their climb by transferring elsewhere.

[plurilingue]

As I wrote upthread in response to one of Thircelawyer's posts, I think this type of assessment was accurate five or ten years ago, when clerkship hiring occurred during 3L year. But now pretty much every feeder judge hires based on two or three semesters of grades. So, yes, YLS has a dramatic overall edge in feeder placement, but that edge does not help a transfer, because the transfer doesn't have time to take advantage of the connections that create the edge. Meanwhile, the transfer has discarded the faculty and institutional support they would have enjoyed had they stayed at their 1L school. At a Top-10 non-HYS school, the faculty and the administration rally around the top-of-the-class students to get them choice clerkships. At YLS, by contrast, the transfer is just one of 200 students. The YLS faculty will, of course, be going to bat for the students they got to know during their 1L year.

No, it's not impossible to land a feeder clerkship as a transfer to HYS or YLS--it happens sometimes--but it's harder. And given the huge upside to clerking for a feeder, I don't know why top-of-the-class T10 students would choose to steepen their climb by transferring elsewhere.

The OP hasn't indicated that s/he is dead set on clerking, so I would first narrow this argument into one arguable downside of transferring. However, an obvious solution to this issue would be to defer applications to feeder clerkships by one year: apply in 3L after pursuing these connections, and spend a year at a top firm. Moreover, another trend that has evolved over the past 5-10 years is that judges prefer hiring clerks with 1-2 years of experience in practice. From the data I have seen, judicial selectivity is markedly lower for those with experience.

OP, with regard to clerking, I would definitely research the difficulty of getting onto LR at each school to which you are considering transferring. I believe it is not especially difficult at Y/S.

[rpupkin]

The OP hasn't indicated that s/he is dead set on clerking, so I would first narrow this argument into one arguable downside of transferring. However, an obvious solution to this issue would be to defer applications to feeder clerkships by one year: apply in 3L after pursuing these connections, and spend a year at a top firm.

Yeah, we're now talking about a sub-issue that doesn't appear to be relevant for the OP. The OP is interested in corporate/transactional work, doesn't particularly care for the environment at Berkeley, and wants to grow his or her network. If all those things are true, OP would do just as well to transfer to CLS.

As for your "obvious solution" to the feeder-clerkship dilemma, I don't think it works because feeder judges don't hire that way anymore. Almost all the feeders hire their clerks--at the latest--during (or even before) 2L year. You can find exceptions here and there who will consider a 3L or alumni applicant, but they're increasingly rare. Students have a much, much better shot these days if they apply early or in the middle of their 2L years.

[abl]

I think the clerkship discussion suffers from some over-generalization. Transferring to HYS will not necessarily hurt the OP (and it may help her). The impact of transferring on the OP's clerkship chances depends in large part on the OP's current relationship with her professors.

Generally, those in the tippy top of their class will also be close with one or several professors: the sort of commitment and brilliance necessary to do that well generally lends itself to building these sorts of connections. If the OP is well-connected and well-supported at Berkeley, then transferring to HYS likely will negatively impact her chances of landing a top clerkship. These sorts of connections are important in landing competitive clerkships, and the OP is likely to do very well wrt clerkships if she has the strong support of several Berkeley "power broker" professors. There is a real opportunity cost to transferring to HYS in that the OP will not be able to continue to develop these relationships, but instead must essentially start over with her professors.

However, not every single top 1L has developed, or started to develop, close connections with professors. If the OP has not (or if the professors that she's close with are visiting, adjunct, etc), then there's not the same cost to transferring. And I don't think anyone on this thread will argue that both the floor and the ceiling for landing an elite clerkship are higher out of HYS (especially YS) than out of Berkeley. That's not to say that transferring will definitely be the correct decision for a student in such circumstances interested in clerking. There are other cultural and performance-based reasons to be cautious (you have a good thing going at Berkeley: a change of scenery may not do you good). But if the OP is able to replicate her Berkeley performance at HYS and is not giving up burgeoning professor connections in transferring, it's very likely that transferring will help with clerkships. There's certainly no bias against HYS transfers in clerkship hiring (or any other hiring that I'm aware of) that is based on the mere fact of transfer.

This is all academic, however, as clerkship chances don't seem to be a big motivator for the OP.

[rpupkin]

Generally, those in the tippy top of their class will also be close with one or several professors: the sort of commitment and brilliance necessary to do that well generally lends itself to building these sorts of connections. If the OP is well-connected and well-supported at Berkeley, then transferring to HYS likely will negatively impact her chances of landing a top clerkship. These sorts of connections are important in landing competitive clerkships, and the OP is likely to do very well wrt clerkships if she has the strong support of several Berkeley "power broker" professors. There is a real opportunity cost to transferring to HYS in that the OP will not be able to continue to develop these relationships, but instead must essentially start over with her professors.

However, not every single top 1L has developed, or started to develop, close connections with professors. If the OP has not (or if the professors that she's close with are visiting, adjunct, etc), then there's not the same cost to transferring.

I think this is all fair. But I've noticed the following shift in the last two or three years: if a top-of-the-class student at a place like UVA/Berkeley/Michigan has not formed relationships with well-connected profs by the end of 1L, then the school will go out of its way to form those relationships over the student's 1L summer. (I think this is all fairly new, by the way. As the plan has fallen apart and the timeline for feeder clerkship hiring has accelerated, the non-HYS schools have mobilized to identify and help their top students at the end of 1L year.)

[Nekrowizard]

Generally, those in the tippy top of their class will also be close with one or several professors: the sort of commitment and brilliance necessary to do that well generally lends itself to building these sorts of connections. If the OP is well-connected and well-supported at Berkeley, then transferring to HYS likely will negatively impact her chances of landing a top clerkship. These sorts of connections are important in landing competitive clerkships, and the OP is likely to do very well wrt clerkships if she has the strong support of several Berkeley "power broker" professors. There is a real opportunity cost to transferring to HYS in that the OP will not be able to continue to develop these relationships, but instead must essentially start over with her professors.

However, not every single top 1L has developed, or started to develop, close connections with professors. If the OP has not (or if the professors that she's close with are visiting, adjunct, etc), then there's not the same cost to transferring.

I think this is all fair. But I've noticed the following shift in the last two or three years: if a top-of-the-class student at a place like UVA/Berkeley/Michigan has not formed relationships with well-connected profs by the end of 1L, then the school will go out of its way to form those relationships over the student's 1L summer. (I think this is all fairly new, by the way. As the plan has fallen apart and the timeline for feeder clerkship hiring has accelerated, the non-HYS schools have mobilized to identify and help their top students at the end of 1L year.)

This all sounds right. I was top 1-2% at a CCN, and I got emails from the clerkship people over the 1L summer with exactly this sort of stuff. I think that transfers give up a significant amount of institutional clerkship support for sure, regardless of whether they developed close relationships with professors. They just give up less if they've avoided professors the whole time.

[SLS_AMG]

OP, at the end of the day, this decision is up to you. I would advise you, however, to step back and truly examine the reason you want to transfer. You say you aren't happy at Berkeley. That may very well be the case, and I have no reason to doubt you. I will add--anecdotally--that I have a couple of friends who transferred (1 from Berkeley and 1 from another T10 school) just to seek higher prestige at HYS. They quickly regretted their decisions.
Prestige whoring in and of itself (again, not saying this is you necessarily) is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it ultimately--and almost inevitably--leads to disappointment here and in life generally if you aren't honest with yourself. If, after some reflection, you decide you are truly unhappy at Berkeley, then you should probably consider transferring.

Best of luck.

[jbagelboy]

I honestly think that there is no harm to transferring here. Top of the class at Boalt is still a notch below top of the class at HYS due to the obvious lesser concentration of very top talent; as such, I don't think that this person would be considered within the top 10% of HYS. But top 10-20%? That seems very fair to me, and W&C/WLRK would seriously consider that resume. If this person continues performing at this level at HYS, it's conceivable s/he could develop a top 10% HYS resume and the kinds of connections that could carry him/her to SCOTUS or legal academia. (This latter reason is, by the way, the reason s/he should be highlighting in his/her transfer admissions essays. Adcoms love this.)

First, I agree that there is no harm to transferring with regard to law firms. But what about clerkships, which is what most of us are talking about? If a student is interested in "SCOTUS or legal academia," a feeder clerkship would do more for a Virginia/Berkeley/Michigan student than would transferring to HYS. And I have yet to hear anyone explain how transferring to HYS would help land a clerkship with a feeder. On the contrary, it would almost certainly hurt the applicant's chances.

I agree with your statement to the extent that it is quite difficult -- although far from impossible -- to replicate the kind of faculty connections needed to get an extremely high prestige judicial clerkship (feeder/CADC/SCOTUS; a tier above normal CA9/CA2). But those connections are, quite frankly, available in greater abundance at HLS and YLS. As such, I'm not convinced that someone who is dead set on gunning through the rest of law school would necessarily hurt their chances at these schools -- especially YLS -- given their edge in placement into both of these.

Beyond connections, it is clear that high grades matter more at HLS/YLS/SLS. If you look back to the SCOTUS clerk AMA thread -- a decent proxy for these outcomes -- the OP's view is that a competitive HLS applicant has all H's, with an equal number of DS and P's; a competitive Boalt applicant has all HH's. Essentially, you need to be in the top 10% throughout Boalt, in every class, to be competitive for a SCOTUS clerkship. To go back to my point above, one would need to gun for top grades at Boalt anyway for these kinds of positions, so why not do so at HLS, especially when the grade requirements are relaxed to the top 37% of every class? That is a massive gap in rank, and I think really bears out the perception that there is an entire tier of candidates -- academics and potential SCOTUS clerks -- that exist in large numbers at the very top schools but few and far in between at the rest of the T14.

I don't disagree that it's way harder to become a SCOTUS clerk from berkeley than it is from Harvard, but you are also over-representing the number of scotus-qualified candidates at Harvard. You have to generally be in the top third to be awarded an honors grade in any one class, but to receive an H or better in every class at HLS is a very rare feat--certainly less than 10% of the class.

[stretchedtoothin]

crazy that most people ITT are just ignoring the fact that HYS transfers are looked at the same way non-transfers of HYS are during 1L OCI/2L clerkship hunt

that's just not true. IF a feeder judge (or even non-feeder) wants a H kid, she's going to take a homegrown H kid most of the time. If a feeder judge has a thing for B kids, she's going to take a homegrown top of the class B kid, not a H kid who used to be a top of the class B kid

[jbagelboy]

crazy that most people ITT are just ignoring the fact that HYS transfers are looked at the same way non-transfers of HYS are during 1L OCI/2L clerkship hunt

that's just not true. IF a feeder judge (or even non-feeder) wants a H kid, she's going to take a homegrown H kid most of the time. If a feeder judge has a thing for B kids, she's going to take a homegrown top of the class B kid, not a H kid who used to B a top of the class B kid

thats sort of what everyone's been saying
and by everyone I mean rpupkin/me/ect.

[eyeofvigilence]

crazy that most people ITT are just ignoring the fact that HYS transfers are looked at the same way non-transfers of HYS are during 1L OCI/2L clerkship hunt

that's just not true. IF a feeder judge (or even non-feeder) wants a H kid, she's going to take a homegrown H kid most of the time. If a feeder judge has a thing for B kids, she's going to take a homegrown top of the class B kid, not a H kid who used to be a top of the class B kid

What's really crazy is that you guys are still talking about clerkships when OP doesn't really care about clerkships.

[stretchedtoothin]

crazy that most people ITT are just ignoring the fact that HYS transfers are looked at the same way non-transfers of HYS are during 1L OCI/2L clerkship hunt

that's just not true. IF a feeder judge (or even non-feeder) wants a H kid, she's going to take a homegrown H kid most of the time. If a feeder judge has a thing for B kids, she's going to take a homegrown top of the class B kid, not a H kid who used to be a top of the class B kid

What's really crazy is that you guys are still talking about clerkships when OP doesn't really care about clerkships.

if clerking/academia aint what OP wants, it makes transferring an even more ridiculous idea

A poaster here once said "transferring is like buying your H/Y degree from Costco" and I don't know if many hiring folks will disagree with that

top 15% at HYS > top 10% B, undoubtedly
but

top 10% B >> transfer-H bro any day, even if transfer bro makes graduates latin honors

employers who want elite harvard kids want elite, homegrown H kids

employers who want elite Berkeley kids for w/e reason want that, not a H transfer

[eyeofvigilence]

crazy that most people ITT are just ignoring the fact that HYS transfers are looked at the same way non-transfers of HYS are during 1L OCI/2L clerkship hunt

that's just not true. IF a feeder judge (or even non-feeder) wants a H kid, she's going to take a homegrown H kid most of the time. If a feeder judge has a thing for B kids, she's going to take a homegrown top of the class B kid, not a H kid who used to be a top of the class B kid

What's really crazy is that you guys are still talking about clerkships when OP doesn't really care about clerkships.

if clerking/academia aint what OP wants, it makes transferring an even more ridiculous idea

A poaster here once said "transferring is like buying your H/Y degree from Costco" and I don't know if many hiring folks will disagree with that

top 15% at HYS > top 10% B, undoubtedly
but

top 10% B >> transfer-H bro any day, even if transfer bro makes graduates latin honors

employers who want elite harvard kids want elite, homegrown H kids

employers who want elite Berkeley kids for w/e reason want that, not a H transfer

Buying at Costco is freaking genius. How dare anyone say that about Costco shoppers. What other store sells kayaks, big screen TVs, and wedding rings all at the same place?

No other store. That's right. Damn that TLSer who said such a dispicable thing.

[abl]

crazy that most people ITT are just ignoring the fact that HYS transfers are looked at the same way non-transfers of HYS are during 1L OCI/2L clerkship hunt

that's just not true. IF a feeder judge (or even non-feeder) wants a H kid, she's going to take a homegrown H kid most of the time. If a feeder judge has a thing for B kids, she's going to take a homegrown top of the class B kid, not a H kid who used to be a top of the class B kid

What's really crazy is that you guys are still talking about clerkships when OP doesn't really care about clerkships.

if clerking/academia aint what OP wants, it makes transferring an even more ridiculous idea

A poaster here once said "transferring is like buying your H/Y degree from Costco" and I don't know if many hiring folks will disagree with that

top 15% at HYS > top 10% B, undoubtedly
but

top 10% B >> transfer-H bro any day, even if transfer bro makes graduates latin honors

employers who want elite harvard kids want elite, homegrown H kids

employers who want elite Berkeley kids for w/e reason want that, not a H transfer

What is your basis for this? I've been involved in hiring decisions in a fairly broad range of competitive positions (including but not limited to clerkships) and I've never encountered this attitude (let alone seen it prevail). Also, from personal experience, the transfers at my HYS seemed to do very well with post-grad jobs and clerkships--better than the average student. I'm not arguing that transferring is TCR for the OP. There are many solid reasons not to transfer. I'm just not sure that this is one of them.

[jbagelboy]

well anyway, the OP provided their reasons for potentially transferring, and moreover, they haven't been admitted yet so the question of whether to actually commit to transfer has yet to ripen. when the time comes, maybe we can pick this discussion back up again.

[run26.2]

Does anyone know if a transfer has gotten a SCOTUS clerkship? Given the number of clerks each year, I'm guessing it probably has happened. But, aside from the lack of faculty connections point, I wonder if there is some implicit (or explicit) bias against transfers at the Supreme Court. Probably hard to know, but I can imagine it happening. Of the former clerks I know, none were transfers.

I don't really care to out anybody, just confirmation that there have been transfers that have been accepted.

ETA: Meant to say transfers that have been offered SCOTUS clerkships.

[FluidMosaic]

Does anyone know if a transfer has gotten a SCOTUS clerkship? Given the number of clerks each year, I'm guessing it probably has happened. But, aside from the lack of faculty connections point, I wonder if there is some implicit (or explicit) bias against transfers at the Supreme Court. Probably hard to know, but I can imagine it happening. Of the former clerks I know, none were transfers.

I don't really care to out anybody, just confirmation that there have been transfers that have been accepted.

There was a Texas -> HY SCOTUS Clerk a while back.

[Goldie]

One of the OT2016 SCOTUS clerks was a transfer student. UVA grad.

[FluidMosaic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Kethledge

Insane progression.

Wayne State Law-> Michigan Law -> Sixth Circuit -> Supreme Court.

[draftopinions]

OP, please PM me. I did Berkeley to Stanford last year, and I know quite a few others who did Berkeley to Stanford or Yale. We can help!