Transfer to HYS, give up Law Review? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Totally a hypothetical right now. But I'm at a T10, probably top 10% of class (alas, no rankings at my school so can't confirm exact number) based on 1st semester GPA. Assuming I do as well 2nd semester, I'll probably make it onto law review.

So the question is this:

Law review at T10 with top 10% grades (and 80k scholly), or HYS (yeah, I know Y is most likely out).

2nd question is, do I really stand any chance at all? Looked at the 509 reports but they're not that informative.

[kaiser]

Why would you transfer from a T10 with top 10% grades, likely LR, and a really nice scholarship? Not sure what the rationale is. It would need to be really compelling or extenuating to justify leaving.

[Anonymous User]

Why would you transfer from a T10 with top 10% grades, likely LR, and a really nice scholarship? Not sure what the rationale is. It would need to be really compelling or extenuating to justify leaving.

Clerkship options, long-term upward mobility career-wise, perhaps (after few years of gov) academia...

Also, one of H/S is near my home, so I could commute and save some $ on living. And I believe H/S offer need-based aid to transfer students.

[SFSpartan]

From your standing at a T10, HYS probably provide some marginal benefit re: the areas you referenced. However, I'm not sure those benefits outweigh the huge monetary cost of transferring. That said, it is worth applying so that you can try and leverage full tuition (w/ living stipend if you can get it) from your current school.

[Anonymous User]

From your standing at a T10, HYS probably provide some marginal benefit re: the areas you referenced. However, I'm not sure those benefits outweigh the huge monetary cost of transferring. That said, it is worth applying so that you can try and leverage full tuition (w/ living stipend if you can get it) from your current school.

Thanks for the advice. I've heard of it happening but not sure if my school's amenable to that type of negotiation. Doesn't hurt trying.

Do I even stand a chance of admission though?

[SFSpartan]

From your standing at a T10, HYS probably provide some marginal benefit re: the areas you referenced. However, I'm not sure those benefits outweigh the huge monetary cost of transferring. That said, it is worth applying so that you can try and leverage full tuition (w/ living stipend if you can get it) from your current school.

Thanks for the advice. I've heard of it happening but not sure if my school's amenable to that type of negotiation. Doesn't hurt trying.

Do I even stand a chance of admission though?

I'm less competent to provide you with advice on that, as I'm not at a T10. But given that multiple kids in the Top 5-10% of my class got H and S, I would say you probably are competitive for that transfer.

[kaiser]

I"m very skeptical that you would be increasing your chances of clerkship and upward mobility by making that switch. For all you know, you will end up a median student at H/S and then you are not in as good a place as you would have been (and its not like thats an unlikely scenario). But hey, if you think the value proposition makes sense, then go for it.

As for whether you are likely to get in, I definitely think you will have a very solid shot. I was at a T20, and students in the top 5% were getting into H. So I have to believe that top 10% from a T10 would also be very competitive (particularly at H, with its very large transfer class).

[Pneumonia]

Idk about your chances. However, at least for H, I'm fairly sure that you can still write the Law Review competition as a transfer. So you wouldn't be foreclosed from LR.

Also, if you're top 10% at T10, if be surprised if you didn't get top 10% grades at H. It's not like the competition will be markedly different.

[rpupkin]

From your standing at a T10, HYS probably provide some marginal benefit re: the areas you referenced. However, I'm not sure those benefits outweigh the huge monetary cost of transferring. That said, it is worth applying so that you can try and leverage full tuition (w/ living stipend if you can get it) from your current school.

I'm not sure this is right even if cost isn't an issue. At least for clerkships, transfers are having an increasingly tough time because of accelerated hiring. If I wanted a clerkship immediately after graduation, I think I'd rather be a top-10% LR student at a T10 than a 2L transfer at HYS.

Also, anyone who says "perhaps (after few years of gov) academia" isn't going to benefit from HYS in the same way as someone who is going the normal route (i.e., clerkship---> fellowship ---> academia market). If you're going to shoot for academia after practicing for a few years, your publication record is going to be far more important than whether you went to, say, UVA versus HLS.

[kaiser]

From your standing at a T10, HYS probably provide some marginal benefit re: the areas you referenced. However, I'm not sure those benefits outweigh the huge monetary cost of transferring. That said, it is worth applying so that you can try and leverage full tuition (w/ living stipend if you can get it) from your current school.

I'm not sure this is right even if cost isn't an issue. At least for clerkships, transfers are having an increasingly tough time because of accelerated hiring. If I wanted a clerkship immediately after graduation, I think I'd rather be a top-10% LR student at a T10 than a 2L transfer at HYS.

Also, anyone who says "perhaps (after few years of gov) academia" isn't going to benefit from HYS in the same way as someone who is going the normal route (i.e., clerkship---> fellowship ---> academia market). If you're going to shoot for academia after practicing for a few years, your publication record is going to be far more important than whether you went to, say, UVA versus HLS.

I was thinking the same thing. Even if the cost were the same, I still don't think its worth it. The fact that he would be leaving that much $$ on the table makes this an easy choice to stay, especially in light of his goals. But again, everyone has a different perspective of relative value and benefit.

[Goldie]

I started at a much lower school than you (mid-30s), but I decided to transfer to Harvard even though it meant giving up a guaranteed shot at law review and cost me an extra $100k in tuition. I also did it for similar reasons - I didn't want my school to ever hold me back. This was most applicable for clerking, but could apply to other areas too (academia, etc).

I wasn't sure it was the right move. My OCI process was tougher than expected, the move to a new city and new school was a bit tough, and the acclimation process wasn't overly easy. But everything eventually worked out. I ended up with a couple good firm offers, and after a few months, I started getting the hang of things.

First semester ended up going great, so looking back now, it was definitely the right move. My clerkship prospects are far better than they would've been, although (like someone mentioned), I'm much more likely to land a good clerkship for a year or two after graduation.

Your calculus is definitely different than mine, but I personally felt like it was the right move. (But I'd probably be singing a very different tune if my first semester at Harvard didn't go well.)

[rpupkin]

Your calculus is definitely different than mine, but I personally felt like it was the right move. (But I'd probably be singing a very different tune if my first semester at Harvard didn't go well.)

And, as you appear to recognize, you might also be singing a different tune had you transferred from Penn/Berkeley/UVA instead of from a regional T1.

[Mullens]

Based on the current clerkship hiring situation, you probably hurt your ability to clerk by transferring. You need recommendations from 2-4 professors and many professors are less willing to back someone who leaves their school. You're probably already on the outside looking in for feeder judges, but transferring would likely ruin many of your chances for this. Giving up law review also hurts both your clerkship and academia chances. The only reason transferring from a T10->HYS really makes sense is for deeply personal reasons or because it would save you money. Either way, you're sacrificing some of your clerkship connections.

[Anonymous User]

Based on the current clerkship hiring situation, you probably hurt your ability to clerk by transferring. You need recommendations from 2-4 professors and many professors are less willing to back someone who leaves their school. You're probably already on the outside looking in for feeder judges, but transferring would likely ruin many of your chances for this. Giving up law review also hurts both your clerkship and academia chances. The only reason transferring from a T10->HYS really makes sense is for deeply personal reasons or because it would save you money. Either way, you're sacrificing some of your clerkship connections.

I've established good relationships with a few of my professors who would back me up, either way. But I can see how it might hurt my ability to clerk for certain judges; however, would the added prestige of a HYS school afford a better chance of academia in the long-term?

I mean, the alma mater/ academia correlation is pretty darn strong:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

[kaiser]

Based on the current clerkship hiring situation, you probably hurt your ability to clerk by transferring. You need recommendations from 2-4 professors and many professors are less willing to back someone who leaves their school. You're probably already on the outside looking in for feeder judges, but transferring would likely ruin many of your chances for this. Giving up law review also hurts both your clerkship and academia chances. The only reason transferring from a T10->HYS really makes sense is for deeply personal reasons or because it would save you money. Either way, you're sacrificing some of your clerkship connections.

I've established good relationships with a few of my professors who would back me up, either way. But I can see how it might hurt my ability to clerk for certain judges; however, would the added prestige of a HYS school afford a better chance of academia in the long-term?

I mean, the alma mater/ academia correlation is pretty darn strong:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

Almost certainly no, especially in light of what you would be giving up.

[Anonymous User]

Also, anyone who says "perhaps (after few years of gov) academia" isn't going to benefit from HYS in the same way as someone who is going the normal route (i.e., clerkship---> fellowship ---> academia market). If you're going to shoot for academia after practicing for a few years, your publication record is going to be far more important than whether you went to, say, UVA versus HLS.

Great point. Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

I've established good relationships with a few of my professors who would back me up, either way. But I can see how it might hurt my ability to clerk for certain judges; however, would the added prestige of a HYS school afford a better chance of academia in the long-term?

I mean, the alma mater/ academia correlation is pretty darn strong:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

Almost certainly no, especially in light of what you would be giving up.

Okay, thanks for your input.

[Anonymous User]

I started at a much lower school than you (mid-30s), but I decided to transfer to Harvard even though it meant giving up a guaranteed shot at law review and cost me an extra $100k in tuition. I also did it for similar reasons - I didn't want my school to ever hold me back. This was most applicable for clerking, but could apply to other areas too (academia, etc).

I wasn't sure it was the right move. My OCI process was tougher than expected, the move to a new city and new school was a bit tough, and the acclimation process wasn't overly easy. But everything eventually worked out. I ended up with a couple good firm offers, and after a few months, I started getting the hang of things.

First semester ended up going great, so looking back now, it was definitely the right move. My clerkship prospects are far better than they would've been, although (like someone mentioned), I'm much more likely to land a good clerkship for a year or two after graduation.

Your calculus is definitely different than mine, but I personally felt like it was the right move. (But I'd probably be singing a very different tune if my first semester at Harvard didn't go well.)

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[rpupkin]

Based on the current clerkship hiring situation, you probably hurt your ability to clerk by transferring. You need recommendations from 2-4 professors and many professors are less willing to back someone who leaves their school. You're probably already on the outside looking in for feeder judges, but transferring would likely ruin many of your chances for this. Giving up law review also hurts both your clerkship and academia chances. The only reason transferring from a T10->HYS really makes sense is for deeply personal reasons or because it would save you money. Either way, you're sacrificing some of your clerkship connections.

I've established good relationships with a few of my professors who would back me up, either way. But I can see how it might hurt my ability to clerk for certain judges; however, would the added prestige of a HYS school afford a better chance of academia in the long-term?

I mean, the alma mater/ academia correlation is pretty darn strong:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

Fine, but you can't consider those stats in the abstract. How many of those HYS-grad academics are transfers? I mean, YLS places 10-15 grads on SCOTUS every term. I'd estimate that at least half of those end up in academia. Unless you're one of the top two or three students at your T10, you're probably not headed to SCOTUS, regardless of whether you transfer. Most of the top HYS students will already be flagged for feeder clerkships by HYS profs before you even show up at the school as a transfer.

Also, the vast majority of academics didn't say "maybe I'll go into academia after working in government for a few years," which is your current attitude. In general, getting legal academia takes a lot more focus than that.

[Nekrowizard]

It's probably not worth the transfer and extra cash spent if your goals are clerking and academia. Clerkship hiring takes place very early nowadays, and you'd be in for a hell of a scramble with recommendations and likely face unmotivated clerkship office/professors. If you get some decent need-based aid and can commute, though, you might as well. I'd apply and see what shakes out.

You're also not foreclosing law review if you snag Y/S (it's really too much of a pain in the ass to apply to H's, whose writing competition likely overlaps with your classes/your own competition, and to which you must apply before even knowing whether you get in). Y/S accommodate transfers pretty well. S just lets you take the regular writing competition that everyone else takes, but after you get in, and Y has some sort of mini-version of their regular exam. Y even saves a few spots exclusively for transfers, I believe.

[NoDayButToday]

.

[Mullens]

Would like to reiterate clerkship recommendation troubles: notwithstanding continuing great relationships with profs at my 1L school (we email and I've even grabbed coffee with some), they have all been very clear that my decision to transfer meant they would not write clerkship recs for me. It's a conflict for them to support a student at another school when they are recommending their own current students for the same positions. I've talked to several other transfers who are having similar difficulties where the 1L profs have either made a hard rule or have else made it very difficult.

Also +1 re: HLR's competition. Theirs overlapped with my competition, which was also my first week as a summer associate. I ended up not doing quite well enough to grade on at my T1, so it was important for me to do my home competition instead of H's (which I've heard is absolutely brutal, by the way).

I just want to reiterate the point here, that I alluded to above, that some professors and schools simply won't give you recommendations even if they really like you because you transferred. OP, you stated declaratively above that you would be able to get recommendations if you transferred and unless you know that (1) your school allows this and (2) you have affirmative confirmation from the professors that they will still write you letters, you should take this point very very seriously.