UNC to Duke? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I was accepted to Duke from UNC. If I do transfer, my COA will definitely go up, but not by an unmanageable figure (maybe an extra 60k or so) because I'll receive some financial assistance from my parents. However, I'm on law review at UNC and ~top 5%. I want to pursue biglaw and (likely) a federal clerkship - although I'm not picky about location or the type of court.

What would you do? It seems like the biggest factor holding back potential transfers is the huge cost disparity that normally comes with transferring. I guess I'm unique in the sense that the financial burden would not be so extreme. However, I have also heard from some people that those getting federal clerkships out of the T14 are generally on law review. And, my chances of successfully writing on as a transfer are obviously very minimal. I'm torn -- as many are -- between being the big fish in a smaller pond and the prestige of the T14.

[sandwhich]

Sidebar: I think the whole worry of becoming a "small fish in a big pond" by transferring is just silly. Who gives a darn what your reputation is at your new school. Just put your nose to your books and enjoy graduating with a more shiny name on your resume. /rant

fwiw, your clerkship chances are pretty good from where you are IMO, but for 60k I would personally run to Duke as fast as I could (you would've taken that had you had the option before starting law school, no?).

You should know that I personally don't buy into the importance of LR (for some schools, read: Duke). That being said, I'm still gunning for it, so take that as you will.

[ndirish2010]

I would not transfer. You have a good chance for a clerkship where you are at Carolina. I clerked for a federal judge in North Carolina and we would take any application from someone with your grades/LR at Carolina VERY seriously. A lot of the judges in the state are Carolina alums too.

[Longtimecoming19]

I would not transfer. You have a good chance for a clerkship where you are at Carolina. I clerked for a federal judge in North Carolina and we would take any application from someone with your grades/LR at Carolina VERY seriously. A lot of the judges in the state are Carolina alums too.

I disagree. At UNC, you may or may not have a good shot at a clerkship with a District Court judge in North Carolina--ndirish2010's anecdote is just that. Duke absolutely kills it at the clerkship game. Your first year of law school will look like this -- "top 5% with Law Review at UNC" -- no matter what; the only question is whether you can also say "J.D. from Duke Law School." I've never understood people who say to not transfer because you have a good shot of clerking at your old school. That isn't the question. The question is whether you will have a better shot of clerking at your new school. In this case, the answer is unambiguously yes.

[ndirish2010]

I would not transfer. You have a good chance for a clerkship where you are at Carolina. I clerked for a federal judge in North Carolina and we would take any application from someone with your grades/LR at Carolina VERY seriously. A lot of the judges in the state are Carolina alums too.

I disagree. At UNC, you may or may not have a good shot at a clerkship with a District Court judge in North Carolina--ndirish2010's anecdote is just that. Duke absolutely kills it at the clerkship game. Your first year of law school will look like this -- "top 5% with Law Review at UNC" -- no matter what; the only question is whether you can also say "J.D. from Duke Law School." I've never understood people who say to not transfer because you have a good shot of clerking at your old school. That isn't the question. The question is whether you will have a better shot of clerking at your new school. In this case, the answer is unambiguously yes.

This is not accurate. How much experience do you have with clerkships? Top 5% and LR and presumably a decent relationship with some professors at Carolina is definitely better, for clerkships, than being a random transfer to Duke with no law review and no connections. Except for with Duke alum judges.

[sandwhich]

I would not transfer. You have a good chance for a clerkship where you are at Carolina. I clerked for a federal judge in North Carolina and we would take any application from someone with your grades/LR at Carolina VERY seriously. A lot of the judges in the state are Carolina alums too.

I disagree. At UNC, you may or may not have a good shot at a clerkship with a District Court judge in North Carolina--ndirish2010's anecdote is just that. Duke absolutely kills it at the clerkship game. Your first year of law school will look like this -- "top 5% with Law Review at UNC" -- no matter what; the only question is whether you can also say "J.D. from Duke Law School." I've never understood people who say to not transfer because you have a good shot of clerking at your old school. That isn't the question. The question is whether you will have a better shot of clerking at your new school. In this case, the answer is unambiguously yes.

This is not accurate. How much experience do you have with clerkships? Top 5% and LR and presumably a decent relationship with some professors at Carolina is definitely better, for clerkships, than being a random transfer to Duke with no law review and no connections. Except for with Duke alum judges.

Why do original connections made with professors during 1L suddenly disappear when you transfer? Why can't you make new connections at the transfer school?

[sandwhich]

Also, I don't believe every transfer is doomed to be a "random transfer." Especially at Duke, where the transfer class is what, 15 people?

[Longtimecoming19]

I would not transfer. You have a good chance for a clerkship where you are at Carolina. I clerked for a federal judge in North Carolina and we would take any application from someone with your grades/LR at Carolina VERY seriously. A lot of the judges in the state are Carolina alums too.

I disagree. At UNC, you may or may not have a good shot at a clerkship with a District Court judge in North Carolina--ndirish2010's anecdote is just that. Duke absolutely kills it at the clerkship game. Your first year of law school will look like this -- "top 5% with Law Review at UNC" -- no matter what; the only question is whether you can also say "J.D. from Duke Law School." I've never understood people who say to not transfer because you have a good shot of clerking at your old school. That isn't the question. The question is whether you will have a better shot of clerking at your new school. In this case, the answer is unambiguously yes.

This is not accurate. How much experience do you have with clerkships? Top 5% and LR and presumably a decent relationship with some professors at Carolina is definitely better, for clerkships, than being a random transfer to Duke with no law review and no connections. Except for with Duke alum judges.

You are wrong, it is accurate. Since transferring, I have lined up two clerkships. I have also seen my transfer buddies succeed in their clerkship efforts. Your clerkship experience is limited to a District Court in North Carolina. I am sure that top UNC students can do well with clerkships in your District, but OP might want to look beyond North Carolina. If so, then none of your assertions are relevant. You are ignoring the fact that OP's first-year record will be exactly the same whether (s)he stays at UNC or goes to Duke. You are also ignoring the fact that OP's connections with her/his first-year professors will not magically vanish once (s)he leaves. Two of my three clerkship recommenders were 1L professors, who did not give a shit that I had left. Some professors may care that you've transferred, but it is incorrect to say that they all will.

[ndirish2010]

I would not transfer. You have a good chance for a clerkship where you are at Carolina. I clerked for a federal judge in North Carolina and we would take any application from someone with your grades/LR at Carolina VERY seriously. A lot of the judges in the state are Carolina alums too.

I disagree. At UNC, you may or may not have a good shot at a clerkship with a District Court judge in North Carolina--ndirish2010's anecdote is just that. Duke absolutely kills it at the clerkship game. Your first year of law school will look like this -- "top 5% with Law Review at UNC" -- no matter what; the only question is whether you can also say "J.D. from Duke Law School." I've never understood people who say to not transfer because you have a good shot of clerking at your old school. That isn't the question. The question is whether you will have a better shot of clerking at your new school. In this case, the answer is unambiguously yes.

This is not accurate. How much experience do you have with clerkships? Top 5% and LR and presumably a decent relationship with some professors at Carolina is definitely better, for clerkships, than being a random transfer to Duke with no law review and no connections. Except for with Duke alum judges.

Why do original connections made with professors during 1L suddenly disappear when you transfer? Why can't you make new connections at the transfer school?

As a general matter, profs will be much less likely to lend their full support to someone who has transferred. And when you go to the new school you have one semester to create the same relationships, after the other students have been there a year already. Plus, in all likelihood, no law review.

Honestly, OP will be fine whether he or she transfers or not.

[Longtimecoming19]

I would not transfer. You have a good chance for a clerkship where you are at Carolina. I clerked for a federal judge in North Carolina and we would take any application from someone with your grades/LR at Carolina VERY seriously. A lot of the judges in the state are Carolina alums too.

I disagree. At UNC, you may or may not have a good shot at a clerkship with a District Court judge in North Carolina--ndirish2010's anecdote is just that. Duke absolutely kills it at the clerkship game. Your first year of law school will look like this -- "top 5% with Law Review at UNC" -- no matter what; the only question is whether you can also say "J.D. from Duke Law School." I've never understood people who say to not transfer because you have a good shot of clerking at your old school. That isn't the question. The question is whether you will have a better shot of clerking at your new school. In this case, the answer is unambiguously yes.

This is not accurate. How much experience do you have with clerkships? Top 5% and LR and presumably a decent relationship with some professors at Carolina is definitely better, for clerkships, than being a random transfer to Duke with no law review and no connections. Except for with Duke alum judges.

Why do original connections made with professors during 1L suddenly disappear when you transfer? Why can't you make new connections at the transfer school?

As a general matter, profs will be much less likely to lend their full support to someone who has transferred. And when you go to the new school you have one semester to create the same relationships, after the other students have been there a year already. Plus, in all likelihood, no law review.

Honestly, OP will be fine whether he or she transfers or not.

Some 1L professors may be unwilling to write for students who transfer out. However, I would not overstate the frequency of this happening. I asked four 1L professors if they would write me LORs. Three said yes. This is just my own experience and it could be unrepresentative, but I wouldn't assume that transferring means cutting loose all of your 1L professors.

[ndirish2010]

You guys make some good points. Also, congrats on getting those clerkships. You're probably right that a lot of professors don't care, that wasn't the way I viewed it but I could see that. After all, profs move around a bit too.

[sandwhich]

I will say that my 1L professors were sad to see me leave but were all elated for me when they found out that I was eventually accepted. My profs who wrote my LORs offered to write them without me even asking (but I think this is because I approached them in confidence seeking there advice regarding whether I should transfer first) and I'm certain they will remain willing to recommend me to judges in the future. I'm not sure it necessarily takes more than one semester to build a strong relationship as long as you work at it often. Besides my LRW prof, all my other profs I only had for one semester and still managed to build a decent rapport with them.

Lack of LR is credited, but I've talked to fed judges who don't give a darn about LR, albiet this was a substantial minority. The first judge I interned with said he wanted to see SOME journal experience, even if it wasn't LR. So if you do transfer, try to write on.

[ndirish2010]

Yeah that's a good point about the profs.

I also figured that, to the extent a school only can place so many people in clerkships each year, it seems to be a disadvantage when you transfer insofar as you are slotted behind the law review people for sure, and possibly some others. Of course it's not a quota system, but clerkship percentages are fairly stable over the years.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all of your input, guys. To me, it truly seems like a toss up that will come down to a gut decision.

[AT9]

OP, if you want to practice outside the Carolinas, I'd transfer since it's 60k more. I'm in the same position, FWIW - top 5% at Wake - but decided not to tansfer to Duke because it would have been more like 100k+ more for me. But if you want to stay instate, top 5% at UNC with LR seems to be pretty ideal.

[barkschool]

OP, if you want to practice outside the Carolinas,

Carolina degrees lock you down if you don't biglaw out. Transfer.