Is a T6 degree worth $100k more than a T60? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I got in to CCN from a T60, and just got offered a full ride from my current school. My immediate goals are clerkship > big law. From there I don't know if I want to stay in big law (haven't worked it yet) or move to the USAO or something else. Geographic flexibility is important to me to the extent that such a thing exists, and my current school is very regional. I'd be lying if I said prestige is irrelevant to me. I have the resources to manage a sizeable debt load assuming a get a decent job out of school or after a clerkship (family, wife, etc.), but obviously $60k $100k is a proverbial shit-ton of money. I'd really like insight from people who have made a similarly large jump and would like to know if you feel the move was worthwhile, but any advice would be appreciated.

[PoopNpants]

Without a doubt. I didn't even read a word you said besides the question at the top.

[chuckbass]

Without a doubt. I didn't even read a word you said besides the question at the top.

This.

But it also depends on your grades at your T60. At least I mean if you're number 1 or 2 in your class, it may be a bit easier to clerk.

[minnbills]

I think it's definitely worth a 60k difference. Especially if you don't land the job you want coming out of the T60.

Your chances of getting biglaw/USAO/clerkship coming out of a T60 are obviously not great, despite what must be a pretty great class rank.

I think this is a no-brainer. The T6 will open a ton of doors.

[Dr. Review]

Since you say T60 (lol), I will assume that your school is in the 45-60 band of the rankings. The list of these schools is (with clerkship/biglaw %):

Southern Methodist (2.8/20.5)
Florida (1.6/15.2)
Maryland (2.7/6.8 )
Wake (4.3/13.4)
FSU (1.5/5.6)
Tulane (6.3/11.3)
Pepperdine (4/5.1)
Temple (5.1/16.6)
Richmond (5.4/8.1)
Tennessee-Knoxville (2/10.6)
Baylor (2.2/8.8 )
GA State (4/11.6)
Nebraska-Lincoln (2.6/5.1)
Case Western (1.2/10.7)
UC Hastings (1.2/13.2)
Houston (1.6/16.4)
Missouri-Columbia (3.7/10.4)

All of these are very regional, and are not likely to take you very far outside of the state or metro area in which they sit. Additionally, even the school in the above list with the best chance of a clerkship gives you a very small chance of clerking. In contrast, CCN's numbers:

Chicago (15.7/60)
Columbia (4.7/74.1)
NYU (7.3/64.1)

Even if you don't land a clerkship, your odds of ending up in biglaw are much, MUCH better from one of CCN. So much so that I would think it is definitely worth the extra $60K. Just my $0.02.

[CanadianWolf]

$60,000 per year or 60k total for both years ?

Without more info. & assuming 60k total for both years, transfer.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for all the replies.

As for the T60 designation, I think I did that to continue the theme of 6's lol

And it's $60k total. However, I failed to take into account that the CCN school is more expensive sooooo...add a bunch of money to that cost. Call it an even 100k? Geeze...

[minnbills]

Between an SA, clerkship bonus, and a year or two in biglaw you will be able to pay off the difference within a few years of graduating.

[bblas]

Same question but change T6 to T14. Thoughts?

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I don't understand how the difference is only 60k. If you're paying sticker at the t6, and all the t6 are in high COL areas, I would think the difference would be around 120k.

[Anonymous User]

^ yes I mentioned this above. The difference comes out to about 100k, I edited the title to reflect this. Does this change people's opinions?

[chuckbass]

What are your grades/rank?

[Anonymous User]

Top 1-2%

And my school is one of the ones in the range mentioned by the poster above.

[chuckbass]

I mean in that case, you should get biglaw from your current school. I wouldn't pay an extra six figures personally for a slightly better shot at a 1 year clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

My worry is that even the top of the class at my current school strikes out at OCI sometimes, and I don't particularly want to practice in this market anyway. Noone is impressed when I would say where I'm going now, but I've already built new professional relationships with people who wouldn't have even looked at me just because I told them I'm transferring to CCN (and this is from people in the market where my current school is situated).

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

OP its hard to say at that price. I went to one of the schools listed above and after 1L I was top 5%. I didn't apply to transfer because of my SO and also because I thought I could get big law and I had a full ride + books scholarship. However, I think graduating from a T6 is worth at least 50k more because of the prestige. On the other hand, it's obviously possible to strike out at OCI at a T6. So I would almost flip a coin on this one, and also consider intangibles (where would you rather live for two years? will transferring interfere with friendships/relationship?). I think it's a close call because at the schools listed you have a solid chance for big law as it is, and there is definitely some prestige in graduating from one of these schools order of the coif as the #1 person in your class (or #2 or #3 or whatever). If you transfer you will have a better law school, but you will have 100k+ in debt, and it's not likely you will be at the very top of your class.

[Anonymous User]

Is there any creedence to the fact that 5, 10, or 20 years from now no one will give a darn where I graduated in my class? People in the legal community here don't seen differentiate here between top 5% and top 5 people in the class.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Is there any creedence to the fact that 5, 10, or 20 years from now no one will give a darn where I graduated in my class? People in the legal community here don't seen differentiate here between top 5% and top 5 people in the class.

Yes, but there's also credence in the fact that they won't care where you went to law school. Once you are practicing for a number of years your reputation, your record, your firm, and how you present to clients will be much more important than your law school or your law school grades.

[chuckbass]

If you don't want to practice in your school's market, then I think transferring is more justified.

[barkschool]

.

[abl]

It's all about your risk tolerance and your desire for geographical flexibility (and a number of other personal factors I'll get into). Top 1-2% at a top 60 school will be competitive for biglaw in that school's region, as well as for clerkships. In fact, your chances of clerking are probably greater from the T60 assuming you stay in the top ~5 students in your class (probably a fair assumption, but you know better than we do just how cutthroat it is at the top) than they would be as an average CCN transfer.

That said, if you fall out of the top 5-10 students at your school, you're going to definitely be in worse shape than you would be at CCN. And if you manage to place in the top ~10% or so at CCN--and you probably have >10% chance of that (because you know already that you're pretty good at getting good law school grades*)--you'll be in better shape than had you stayed and finished #4 in your class or whatever.

Moreover, as your own post alludes to, there are some additional factors worth considering. CCN has more prestige than wherever you currently are. CCN is going to offer different in-school opportunities and different post-graduate opportunities. Your classmates will go on to do different things. Living in Chicago or New York is a different experience than living wherever you currently are (assuming you're not going from Fordham to NYU, at least). These "soft" factors all have value (and some may have negative value--I'd prefer Pepperdine's location over Columbia's, for example). It's up to you how much value.

Finally, the other factor worth considering is your personal aversion to debt. Folks value debt differently. $100k in debt is something like $1,000/m extra in repayment for 10 years. If you're making $160k/year, that extra $1k might not be that significant. For me, I've found that $160k gets me far more disposable income than I need to be happy, so there's substantial diminishing value for every additional dollar after a certain point. Thus, for me, an additional $1k/m in debt service wouldn't be that big of a negative value.

The long and short is that there's no obvious answer here. CCN are undoubtedly worth more than your T60 for an average student. I think most folks here would agree that for your goals, CCN are easily worth $100k more for an average student. But you're not an average student. Depending on how much value you put on risk aversion, prestige, debt, etc, I think you could be correct in choosing to stay or choosing to transfer. My sense from your posts is that you seem to be leaning towards transferring and want some confirmation. Well, here it is: it's definitely not the wrong decision. (Neither, for many in your shoes, would be staying.) Personally, if I were you, I'd transfer. But that's based on my own relatively high personal valuation of experiences and education and my relatively lower valuation of debt.

*Don't assume that being #3 at your T60 is going to translate to being #3 at CCN. But I think it's fair to assume that if you keep doing at CCN what you did at your school, you're likely going to be above median at CCN: a lot of people just don't really "get" law school, even at CCN--at least from a grading perspective. Lucky for you, you're not one of them. You're probably not going to be able to outwork and outsmart nearly as many people at CCN as you did at your T60, but you will be able to out-exam some of the folks, something that counts for almost as much.

[abl]

Also, not all T60s place equally as well in biglaw or clerkships. And not all T60s do equally well in insuring that folks in the top 25% or so end up in respectable jobs. You know better than we do what your shot at your dream positions will be, and what your safety net looks like, should you decide to stay. Because I think you're likely going to end up above median at CCN, I think you can feel pretty comfortable (90%+) of your chances of biglaw and feel at least cautiously optimistic (~20-30%) at your chances at a clerkship. How would that compare to your current T60 if you finishing in the top 5? What about if you finish in the top 25%?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks again for the replies everyone. And for those who've gleaned which way I'm leaning, you're definitely correct that I'm leaning towards jumping ship. Just getting in is probably my greatest accomplishment in life thus far (is that sad?) and I think I want to see that through. Windows of opportunity don't come around very often, and I'm afraid to let this one close on me.

I'll gladly be a case-study and will report back in a few years as to whether I regret taking on the debt, but I'm optimistic that things will work out one way or the other.

[chuckbass]

Well congrats OP, you definitely deserve it!

[smaug]

what would be your total debt load at repayment?