Michigan or Duke? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Coming from a regional T40---in a region where I have no ties--with LR. From the Midwest originally, but would probably like to work in CA (if possible), FL, or at a market-paying firm outside of NYC. No ties to anywhere but a small Midwestern secondary market. Have no aversion to snow / cold and I don't particularly care about clerkships (probably very hard to get as a transfer anyway).

Where should I go? Both schools seem to provide excellent legal educations so I'm looking for advice.

[heavoldgotjuice]

If I were you, I would choose Duke because of objective employment placement and the fact that you may want FL --> Duke is the yale of the south

[Anonymous User]

Thanks. What about CA? That's probably my #1 desired market but I have almost no ties besides an uncle / aunt who live there.

Mostly interested in FL (no ties) due to Latin American capital markets work, but otherwise, I'd like to be in CA if I could.

[philippian413]

If you want California or really out of the South then UMich is your choice.

[heavoldgotjuice]

idk of the placement #'s for Cali from michigan and duke off the top of my head ... just check law school transparency and make your choice if those are your only 2 options; otherwise, berkeley would be your best option (but you never mentioned it)

[Anonymous User]

Thought about Berkeley, but I'm not sure how well they do outside CA.

Anything else I should be considering?

[rogerrogerson]

Weather, you should be considering the weather. Duke all day.

[chuckbass]

Thought about Berkeley, but I'm not sure how well they do outside CA.

Anything else I should be considering?

??? So the primary market that you want is CA, but you don't want to go to a school that primarily places in CA and so now you're choosing between two schools that primarily do not place into CA?

[heavoldgotjuice]

Thought about Berkeley, but I'm not sure how well they do outside CA.

Anything else I should be considering?

you should consider figuring out what the hell you want to do then

[Anonymous User]

Thought about Berkeley, but I'm not sure how well they do outside CA.

Anything else I should be considering?

??? So the primary market that you want is CA, but you don't want to go to a school that primarily places in CA and so now you're choosing between two schools that primarily do not place into CA?

I care much more about getting a market paying job, preferably outside of NYC if possible, than ending up in CA.

Is CA my top market? Sure. But I'm also a pragmatist and recognize that it might not be possible to find a market paying gig there.

[chuckbass]

Thought about Berkeley, but I'm not sure how well they do outside CA.

Anything else I should be considering?

??? So the primary market that you want is CA, but you don't want to go to a school that primarily places in CA and so now you're choosing between two schools that primarily do not place into CA?

I care much more about getting a market paying job, preferably outside of NYC if possible, than ending up in CA.

Is CA my top market? Sure. But I'm also a pragmatist and recognize that it might not be possible to find a market paying gig there.

The three schools are pretty much peers in terms of biglaw placement so I really don't understand what you're getting at... Plus market paying biglaw out of Michigan/Duke is going to primarily be in NYC while the same is not true of Berkeley, which clearly more aligns with all of your goals.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks. Unfortunately, the Berkeley deadline was early and I didn't have all my stuff together, so that ship has sailed. I applied to Michigan, Duke, and CCN.

I like the Bay and thought about Berk, but I moved too slowly and was ill-informed about the transfer process until very recently.

[chuckbass]

Thanks. Unfortunately, the Berkeley deadline was early and I didn't have all my stuff together, so that ship has sailed. I applied to Michigan, Duke, and CCN.

I like the Bay and thought about Berk, but I moved too slowly and was ill-informed about the transfer process until very recently.

Fair enough, I was just confused on your logic. Anyways, between Duke and Michigan I'd personally choose Duke because of the FL ties. However, I would mass mail NYC firms and bid NYC heavily at OCI because getting a job is the most important thing and this will be the easiest place to get a job. Having a job in a city you hate is better than being unemployed. GL.

[mephistopheles]

um, duke sends good numbers a lot of places, whereas michigan... still in t14?

[chuckbass]

um, duke sends good numbers a lot of places, whereas michigan... still in t14?

Ok let's not be dumb. Duke places a plurality of its graduates in NYC, like most T14s. Berkeley obviously places a plurality in CA. My point being that attending a T14 while completely opposed to biglaw in the biggest market which your school also places more of its graduates in than any other place isn't the best idea if you want biglaw.

[igo2northwestern]

Typically how people on this forum judge a school's biglaw employment strength is by adding the 50+ attorney firm %s and the fed clerk %. This might be helpful for you; it seems that you're a bit new to this, but apologies in advance if I'm assuming too much.
Duke: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2013/
Mich: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2013/

Duke Biglaw + Fed Clerk: 63.4% (6.6% non-employed)
Mich: 59% (10.3% non-employed)

Duke (2012): New York (22.1%), Wash DC (14.3%), North Carolina (8.8%), California (12.4%), Texas (5.1%)
Mich (2012): New York (20.4%), Mich (14%), Illinois (14%), Wash DC (12.5%), California (10.5%)

I'm putting out 2012 geo numbers because that's all that Michigan has on its website, but I should also mention that (1) both sets of %s aren't exclusive to biglaw and (2) Duke's CA % in 2013 was much lower. OP, I would think that the two schools' placement strengths in CA are pretty similar, with a small edge towards Duke for its overall greater employment strength, so I'd recommend attending the school you'd more enjoy in terms of environment/vibe (unless one throws money). It seems to me that the schools are pretty different, both in class size and feel. Have you visited either one?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the employment statistics.

I haven't visited either - large / small class size doesn't bother me, so what's the culture like at each?

[SLS_AMG]

Thanks. What about CA? That's probably my #1 desired market but I have almost no ties besides an uncle / aunt who live there.

Mostly interested in FL (no ties) due to Latin American capital markets work, but otherwise, I'd like to be in CA if I could.

Florida is already a parochial market, and bouncing around as a transfer is not going to help you break into it. More importantly, though, is the fact that Miami isn't even a large legal market, and the vast majority of actual LatAm big law work is done out of NYC.

Thought about Berkeley, but I'm not sure how well they do outside CA.

Anything else I should be considering?

I care much more about getting a market paying job, preferably outside of NYC if possible, than ending up in CA.

Is CA my top market? Sure. But I'm also a pragmatist and recognize that it might not be possible to find a market paying gig there.

Thanks. Unfortunately, the Berkeley deadline was early and I didn't have all my stuff together, so that ship has sailed. I applied to Michigan, Duke, and CCN.

I like the Bay and thought about Berk, but I moved too slowly and was ill-informed about the transfer process until very recently.

Protip: In the future, don't waste everyone's time posting non-sequiturs like the first two posts above. People in this thread are trying to help you, and instead of just volunteering outright that you didn't get into Berkeley like you finally did in the third post, you beat around the bush with posts that don't make sense based on your stated career objectives. Just a waste of everyone's time.

[Anonymous User]

Protip: In the future, don't waste everyone's time posting non-sequiturs like the first two posts above. People in this thread are trying to help you, and instead of just volunteering outright that you didn't get into Berkeley like you finally did in the third post, you beat around the bush with posts that don't make sense based on your stated career objectives. Just a waste of everyone's time.

Jesus Christ.

I never even mentioned Berkeley. I asked specifically in the OP about the difference between Michigan and Duke. Those are the schools (besides CCN) where I've applied. I didn't apply to Berkeley because I couldn't meet the early deadline and in any event, I was concerned that I might be regionally limited if I struck out for a CA position.

[SLS_AMG]

Protip: In the future, don't waste everyone's time posting non-sequiturs like the first two posts above. People in this thread are trying to help you, and instead of just volunteering outright that you didn't get into Berkeley like you finally did in the third post, you beat around the bush with posts that don't make sense based on your stated career objectives. Just a waste of everyone's time.

Jesus Christ.

I never even mentioned Berkeley. I asked specifically in the OP about the difference between Michigan and Duke. Those are the schools (besides CCN) where I've applied. I didn't apply to Berkeley because I couldn't meet the early deadline and in any event, I was concerned that I might be regionally limited if I struck out for a CA position.

Thought about Berkeley, but I'm not sure how well they do outside CA.

Anything else I should be considering?

You absolutely mentioned Berkeley, and you made it seem like you weren't considering them because you were "concerned about outside CA placement" rather than the simple fact that you weren't admitted there.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. But you need to research where you want to be and what you want to do, because you've mentioned at least three geographic areas and talked about LatAm in Florida when LatAm work is really in NYC.

[Anonymous User]

I meant in the OP.

But anyway, thanks for the heads up on LatAm stuff. I thought Miami was a big center for that?

I would like to try and avoid NYC if I can, since for me CA just seems to have a better quality of life in general. But how likely is it going to be for a transfer to make it there from Duke or Michigan? I'm not dead-set on the Bay like a lot of people; I'd ideally just like to have a 100+ paying position somewhere in the state, so I'd bid LA if necessary.

[Nomo]

Given where you're from and the 2 schools you're picking from I would completely give up on CA or FL. Chicago might be a viable option. And snagging a spot in whichever smaller midwestern market you're actually from is worth a shot and you should definitely mass mail to the below market firms in your hometown area. But New York might be your best bet. Especially if you go to Duke.

[sixseat]

I agree with the previous posters re: the California legal market. I moved out here about 6 months prior to attending law school, did 1L here, am doing my 1L summer job here, and I still get the "ties" question during interviews (caveat: I'm in the Bay Area and I don't know whether the same holds true for LA). I wouldn't say to give up on it, but I would stick to mass mailing and not bid heavily on it from either Duke or Michigan.

Anecdotally speaking, from what I've seen/heard, Michigan does place relatively well here, but I have a feeling that a lot of the Michigan students that get jobs out here are from California and trying to get back (i.e. self-selection). I don't think either school is inherently advantageous over the other with regard to California placement.

Are you dead set on transferring? Are you receiving any scholarship? What kind of firms come to your OCI? Option no. 3 is to stay in the region you are at--usually 1L + 1L job is enough to establish "ties" to the region--and bid that market + NYC at OCI, then mass mail California and your secondary market. Michigan and Duke are excellent schools, but it may not be worth the extra $100k in loans if they are not going to give you any significant boost towards getting CA BigLaw. Just something to consider, I guess.

To attempt to get a feel on the culture, I would suggest checking the respective threads in the Ask a Law Student/Graduate forum. I'm sure it's been touched upon many times.

Good luck.

[SLS_AMG]

I meant in the OP.

But anyway, thanks for the heads up on LatAm stuff. I thought Miami was a big center for that?

I would like to try and avoid NYC if I can, since for me CA just seems to have a better quality of life in general. But how likely is it going to be for a transfer to make it there from Duke or Michigan? I'm not dead-set on the Bay like a lot of people; I'd ideally just like to have a 100+ paying position somewhere in the state, so I'd bid LA if necessary.

Miami isn't really a legal center at all, and unless you have strong ties there you can't really break into the market absent exceptional grades from a top school. They have a very small number of SAs, and most of them are gobbled up by the top students from Miami, UF, and FSU. Miami absolutely is the capital (or one of) for LatAm banking, but the legal work is really centered in NYC. The top firm for LatAm is probably Cleary.

Another thing to know about LatAm work is that it is increasingly important that you speak Spanish or Portuguese. I don't know what your fluency levels with regards to these languages is, but the deals tend to be more leanly staffed and there is more client contact than most juniors get. And, obviously, clients prefer to speak in their native languages wherever possible.

You have a choice to make here, because I don't think that LatAm work exists at all in California. A lot of people choose CA because of the better lifestyle, but a lot of people choose NY over California because it's typically much higher quality work on the corporate side (or it has fields like LatAm that people are interested in).

[Nomo]

I meant in the OP.

But anyway, thanks for the heads up on LatAm stuff. I thought Miami was a big center for that?

I would like to try and avoid NYC if I can, since for me CA just seems to have a better quality of life in general. But how likely is it going to be for a transfer to make it there from Duke or Michigan? I'm not dead-set on the Bay like a lot of people; I'd ideally just like to have a 100+ paying position somewhere in the state, so I'd bid LA if necessary.

Miami isn't really a legal center at all, and unless you have strong ties there you can't really break into the market absent exceptional grades from a top school. They have a very small number of SAs, and most of them are gobbled up by the top students from Miami, UF, and FSU. Miami absolutely is the capital (or one of) for LatAm banking, but the legal work is really centered in NYC. The top firm for LatAm is probably Cleary.

Another thing to know about LatAm work is that it is increasingly important that you speak Spanish or Portuguese. I don't know what your fluency levels with regards to these languages is, but the deals tend to be more leanly staffed and there is more client contact than most juniors get. And, obviously, clients prefer to speak in their native languages wherever possible.

You have a choice to make here, because I don't think that LatAm work exists at all in California. A lot of people choose CA because of the better lifestyle, but a lot of people choose NY over California because it's typically much higher quality work on the corporate side (or it has fields like LatAm that people are interested in).

People also "choose" NY over CA when its time to place bids because there are more jobs in NY, its easier to get a job in NY, and its vastly easier to get a job in NY without ties.