Berkeley vs. Michigan Forum

[Anonymous User]

I narrowly missed breaking into the top 10% at a T40, so even if I get law review I'm not sure if it's worth sticking around. I was accepted as a transfer at Michigan and Berkeley.

I would like to work in international arbitration (I know, I know - but I have language skills so I might actually be a decent candidate) - failing that, I'd like to try for Biglaw. I love NYC but unless I get into international arbitration, I don’t want to end up there. I’d prefer not to deal with the NYC Biglaw culture. If I can’t break into international arb, I would still like to work in CA, followed by Miami, then the Midwest, then other markets.

CA (Bay Area > SD > LA) > Miami > Minneapolis > Chicago >>>> TX >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NYC > Others

Michigan

Pros

Went to UM for undergrad (would have dual UM degrees on resume)
Love Ann Arbor
Close to friends & family in the Midwest

Cons

Big class size means employment numbers don’t look as good as some other T14s
Good avenue to CA? I know UM does well in CA, but well enough to get me a job?

Berkeley

Pros

California + Weather + Pacific Time Zone
Good placement in Bay Area

Cons

Stratospheric cost of living
International arbitration work in CA (if any exists) more focused on Asia? Wouldn’t be my specialty…

I'd love to hear your thoughts - thanks in advance.

[heavoldgotjuice]

Just going off numbers from LST, Michigan > Berkeley. Michigan is at like ~62% BigLaw + Clerkship, whereas Berkeley is like ~56% BigLaw + Clerkship. However, the climate may play a factor in many/most people's view. I don't know much about international arbitration, or where the people from Michigan and Berk primarily work. I think one thing is clear, if you want to wank in Cali, then Berk should be where you accept. If you're leaning more towards the midwest, then go to Michigan. From what you posted, it appears Cali ranks above Midwest in your eyes, so go Berk. The 6-7% employment statistics difference should not be the deciding factor here. Either way, congrats on getting into both schools I bet you're pretty happy

[Jchance]

CA (Bay Area > SD > LA) > Miami > Minneapolis > Chicago >>>> TX >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NYC > Others

Given this goal, I'd take Berk

[CanadianWolf]

Seems to come down to personal preference as a Michigan law degree travels well.

[Anonymous User]

Shameless bump. Anyone else want to chime in?

Couple more questions:

1. I know this is largely speculation, but how are Berkeley and Michigan likely to be ranked in the coming years? Should this matter?

2. I know many PhD programs discourage "academic inbreeding" - doing a grad degree at your undergrad school. Is this a problem in law? Or is it actually an advantage?

3. How realistic is a market-paying CA biglaw gig as a transfer right now? Is it feasible to break into the CA market as a transfer to begin with? I have some ties, but they're minimal.

This is a really tough choice for me since they're both great schools. What other factors are worth considering?

Thanks!

[rpupkin]

1. I know this is largely speculation, but how are Berkeley and Michigan likely to be ranked in the coming years? Should this matter?

I have no idea how USNWR (or any other magazine or publication) it going to rank law schools in the coming years. And, no, the rankings don't matter.

2. I know many PhD programs discourage "academic inbreeding" - doing a grad degree at your undergrad school. Is this a problem in law? Or is it actually an advantage?

The "academic inbreeding" prohibition doesn't apply to law school. Having said that, there's probably a slight advantage to extending your geographic network by attending undergrad and law school in different regions.

3. How realistic is a market-paying CA biglaw gig as a transfer right now? Is it feasible to break into the CA market as a transfer to begin with? I have some ties, but they're minimal.

I'll let some Boalt transfers answer this. But, in my experience, out-of-state Boalt and SLS transfers do well in the CA market. The fact that you bothered to transfer into the state shows that you have an interest in living there.

Berkeley and Michigan are peer schools. But given that you have a preference for working in California, and given that you would prefer not to work in NYC, it seems like Berkeley is the better choice here.

[Anonymous User]

One more bump - just looking for more opinions.

If I decided I didn't want CA, would Michigan be a better choice? I'm assuming they'd have the edge anywhere in the Midwest. How does Michigan place in Florida and Texas? Would a Michigan degree be more nationally portable than a Berkeley degree?

Is there anyone else who's had to decide between Michigan and Berkeley? I'd love to hear from you.

[transferror]

One more bump - just looking for more opinions.

If I decided I didn't want CA, would Michigan be a better choice? I'm assuming they'd have the edge anywhere in the Midwest. How does Michigan place in Florida and Texas? Would a Michigan degree be more nationally portable than a Berkeley degree?

Is there anyone else who's had to decide between Michigan and Berkeley? I'd love to hear from you.

Either school is equally portable to Florida or Texas, but will require ties to get in the door. Outside of bidding NYC for UM and CA/NYC from Berkeley, you will probably need ties to the area. I'd go with Boalt.

[Real Madrid]

Just going off numbers from LST, Michigan > Berkeley. Michigan is at like ~62% BigLaw + Clerkship, whereas Berkeley is like ~56% BigLaw + Clerkship. However, the climate may play a factor in many/most people's view. I don't know much about international arbitration, or where the people from Michigan and Berk primarily work. I think one thing is clear, if you want to wank in Cali, then Berk should be where you accept. If you're leaning more towards the midwest, then go to Michigan. From what you posted, it appears Cali ranks above Midwest in your eyes, so go Berk. The 6-7% employment statistics difference should not be the deciding factor here. Either way, congrats on getting into both schools I bet you're pretty happy

Well, your numbers are straight up wrong.

Berkeley's stats for last year were 55.8% big law + clerkships. Michigan's were 57.2%. That's virtually indistinguishable. And it also doesn't take into account that Berkeley's PI score was almost DOUBLE Michigan's. Berkeley and NYU are far and away the top two non-HYS schools for PI in the T14.

It's also incredibly misleading of you to talk about a single year, considering Berkeley has placed significantly better than Michigan recently.

Michigan's Numbers:
2012: 43.3% + 8.5% = 51.8%
2011: 34% + 10.6% = 44.6%

Berkeley's Numbers:
2012: 53.8% + 6.7% = 60.5%
2011: 41.6% + 9.7% = 51.3%


The trend is similar going back a couple years before that as well. As you can see, Berkeley has consistently outplaced Michigan for several years now with a single year (this year) being the exception. This is not even taking into account the fact that some (many?) of Berkeley's top students are legitimately interested in public interest (I know Michigan students like to argue this as well, but again, there are no T14s comparable to NYU and Berkeley for PI).

Nevertheless, they're both great schools and certainly peers. But heavold is wrong and not giving you the full picture.

[Real Madrid]

One more bump - just looking for more opinions.

If I decided I didn't want CA, would Michigan be a better choice? I'm assuming they'd have the edge anywhere in the Midwest. How does Michigan place in Florida and Texas? Would a Michigan degree be more nationally portable than a Berkeley degree?

Is there anyone else who's had to decide between Michigan and Berkeley? I'd love to hear from you.

I chose between Michigan and Berkeley and decided on B, despite a larger scholarship at M. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

[Big Dog]

Law school is professional school, and none of the Pros for AA fit 'professional'.

For someone desiring the Bay Area, this is a no-brainer. At roughly the same price, Michigan should not even be in the discussion.

[Anonymous User]

OP here - thanks for all the responses so far.

I guess I would like a position in biglaw first and foremost so that I could be able to pay off debt. Am I putting myself at risk by targeting CA, a market where I have no ties?

I also really like both Minneapolis and Miami (two very different cities, I know) and would be willing to work for below market in either of those places as long as I could clear six figures to pay down some debt. I also love Chicago, but I'm skeptical about my ability to break into that market.

Am I misguided in thinking that my quality of life would be materially different in California from NY? If I'm going to be working the same number of hours under largely the same conditions, would it be smarter to bid on NY so I can get a biglaw job, rather than focusing on CA where I might strike out entirely? If CA isn't any better than NY, should I just bite the bullet and bid NYC, in which case Michigan would seem to be the better choice?

[igo2northwestern]

What's the cost for housing at Mich? At berk, it should be sub $1,000. And if you do a 1br in a house, you can get sub $650. In some cases, sub $550.

A lot of housing near the berk campus is rent controlled, so it's much cheaper than what you'd find in SF or SV.

[heavoldgotjuice]

Just going off numbers from LST, Michigan > Berkeley. Michigan is at like ~62% BigLaw + Clerkship, whereas Berkeley is like ~56% BigLaw + Clerkship. However, the climate may play a factor in many/most people's view. I don't know much about international arbitration, or where the people from Michigan and Berk primarily work. I think one thing is clear, if you want to wank in Cali, then Berk should be where you accept. If you're leaning more towards the midwest, then go to Michigan. From what you posted, it appears Cali ranks above Midwest in your eyes, so go Berk. The 6-7% employment statistics difference should not be the deciding factor here. Either way, congrats on getting into both schools I bet you're pretty happy

Well, your numbers are straight up wrong.

Berkeley's stats for last year were 55.8% big law + clerkships. Michigan's were 57.2%. That's virtually indistinguishable. And it also doesn't take into account that Berkeley's PI score was almost DOUBLE Michigan's. Berkeley and NYU are far and away the top two non-HYS schools for PI in the T14.

It's also incredibly misleading of you to talk about a single year, considering Berkeley has placed significantly better than Michigan recently.

Michigan's Numbers:
2012: 43.3% + 8.5% = 51.8%
2011: 34% + 10.6% = 44.6%

Berkeley's Numbers:
2012: 53.8% + 6.7% = 60.5%
2011: 41.6% + 9.7% = 51.3%


The trend is similar going back a couple years before that as well. As you can see, Berkeley has consistently outplaced Michigan for several years now with a single year (this year) being the exception. This is not even taking into account the fact that some (many?) of Berkeley's top students are legitimately interested in public interest (I know Michigan students like to argue this as well, but again, there are no T14s comparable to NYU and Berkeley for PI).

Nevertheless, they're both great schools and certainly peers. But heavold is wrong and not giving you the full picture.

1.) Michigan
a. 2013 – 49.4 + 12.1 = 61.5
b. 2012 – 43.3 + 12.1 = 55.4
c. 2011 – 34 + 15.1 = 49.1
2.) Berkeley
a. 2013 – 47.8 + 10 = 57.8
b. 2012 – 53.8 + 8.9 = 62.7
c. 2011 – 41.6 + 12 = 53.6


OP these are the numbers. Perhaps Berkeley outshined Michigan in 2011 and 2012 due to the economy + Berkeley placing well in Cali, while Michigan the state is not a powerhouse for legal employment.

Yes, Berkeley beat out Michigan in 2011 by 4.5%, and in 2012 by 7.3%, but I think it's due to Michigan not having a single state that most of it's students can cling to while Berkeley does. Not sure tho. It would be interesting to hear theories on why Berk has fallen almost 5% while Michigan has climbed 6.1% in just 1 year though....

[igo2northwestern]

Just going off numbers from LST, Michigan > Berkeley. Michigan is at like ~62% BigLaw + Clerkship, whereas Berkeley is like ~56% BigLaw + Clerkship. However, the climate may play a factor in many/most people's view. I don't know much about international arbitration, or where the people from Michigan and Berk primarily work. I think one thing is clear, if you want to wank in Cali, then Berk should be where you accept. If you're leaning more towards the midwest, then go to Michigan. From what you posted, it appears Cali ranks above Midwest in your eyes, so go Berk. The 6-7% employment statistics difference should not be the deciding factor here. Either way, congrats on getting into both schools I bet you're pretty happy

Well, your numbers are straight up wrong.

Berkeley's stats for last year were 55.8% big law + clerkships. Michigan's were 57.2%. That's virtually indistinguishable. And it also doesn't take into account that Berkeley's PI score was almost DOUBLE Michigan's. Berkeley and NYU are far and away the top two non-HYS schools for PI in the T14.

It's also incredibly misleading of you to talk about a single year, considering Berkeley has placed significantly better than Michigan recently.

Michigan's Numbers:
2012: 43.3% + 8.5% = 51.8%
2011: 34% + 10.6% = 44.6%

Berkeley's Numbers:
2012: 53.8% + 6.7% = 60.5%
2011: 41.6% + 9.7% = 51.3%


The trend is similar going back a couple years before that as well. As you can see, Berkeley has consistently outplaced Michigan for several years now with a single year (this year) being the exception. This is not even taking into account the fact that some (many?) of Berkeley's top students are legitimately interested in public interest (I know Michigan students like to argue this as well, but again, there are no T14s comparable to NYU and Berkeley for PI).

Nevertheless, they're both great schools and certainly peers. But heavold is wrong and not giving you the full picture.

1.) Michigan
a. 2013 – 49.4 + 12.1 = 61.5
b. 2012 – 43.3 + 12.1 = 55.4
c. 2011 – 34 + 15.1 = 49.1
2.) Berkeley
a. 2013 – 47.8 + 10 = 57.8
b. 2012 – 53.8 + 8.9 = 62.7
c. 2011 – 41.6 + 12 = 53.6


OP these are the numbers. Perhaps Berkeley outshined Michigan in 2011 and 2012 due to the economy + Berkeley placing well in Cali, while Michigan the state is not a powerhouse for legal employment.

Yes, Berkeley beat out Michigan in 2011 by 4.5%, and in 2012 by 7.3%, but I think it's due to Michigan not having a single state that most of it's students can cling to while Berkeley does. Not sure tho. It would be interesting to hear theories on why Berk has fallen almost 5% while Michigan has climbed 6.1% in just 1 year though....

Lol why are your guys' clerkship numbers so different from one another?

[heavoldgotjuice]

Im using Fed + State, he just using Fed

[igo2northwestern]

Im using Fed + State, he just using Fed

Ah, I see. Fed clerk numbers are widely known to be more reflective of a school's employment strength (across this forum and generally, no one includes state&local clerkship numbers in the calculus)--your Michigan numbers are pretty overstated then.

This chart would be more accurate:

Biglaw | Fed Clerk | Total Biglaw + Fed Clerk

2013:
Mich: 49.4 | 7.8 | 57.2%
Berk: 47.8 | 8 | 55.8%

2012:
Mich: 43.3 | 8.5 | 51.8%
Berk: 53.8 | 6.7 | 60.5%

2011:
Mich: 34 | 10.6| 44.6%
Berk: 41.6 | 12 | 53.6%

[Anonymous User]

What's the cost for housing at Mich? At berk, it should be sub $1,000. And if you do a 1br in a house, you can get sub $650. In some cases, sub $550.

A lot of housing near the berk campus is rent controlled, so it's much cheaper than what you'd find in SF or SV.

Unless things have changed since I've lived there, A2 is generally very affordable.

What do you guys think about the quality of life difference between CA and NY that I asked about upthread? If there's very little difference, maybe I should just toughen up and bid New York. I'm assuming Michigan would be better for NY?

[igo2northwestern]

What's the cost for housing at Mich? At berk, it should be sub $1,000. And if you do a 1br in a house, you can get sub $650. In some cases, sub $550.

A lot of housing near the berk campus is rent controlled, so it's much cheaper than what you'd find in SF or SV.

Unless things have changed since I've lived there, A2 is generally very affordable.

What do you guys think about the quality of life difference between CA and NY that I asked about upthread? If there's very little difference, maybe I should just toughen up and bid New York. I'm assuming Michigan would be better for NY?

The quality of life is very very different between the two states. In short, CA has a more relaxed culture and work hours are better, but there are things to do all the time in NY. Cost of living in CA might be better, but this depends on where you choose to live/practice, so we need more information from you.

This is obviously a very short response (mostly because I'm out of time, sorry), so other posters can help out. There's a lot of material online about city differences though. Others can probably answer your second question better than I can.