final grades in - should I stay or go? Forum

[LawLschool101]

School: T30
GPA: 3.69, 6%
Awards: Top performer in LRW
softs: worked as paralegal at law firm for two years, collegiate athlete
current debt after 1L + undergrad: 70k
COA for last two years at current school: 30k

goals: corporate/transactional law, i'd like to work with start-ups and venture capital type work

I'm from CA but go to law school in the midwest.

so my question... should I transfer and take out the extra 120k+ in loans? will it be worth it?

do i have any shot at harvard, stanford, yale, columbia, berkeley?

thanks!

[ymmv]

School: T30
GPA: 3.69, 6%
Awards: Top performer in LRW
softs: worked as paralegal at law firm for two years, collegiate athlete
current debt after 1L + undergrad: 70k
COA for last two years at current school: 30k

goals: corporate/transactional law, i'd like to work with start-ups and venture capital type work

I'm from CA but go to law school in the midwest.

so my question... should I transfer and take out the extra 120k+ in loans? will it be worth it?

do i have any shot at harvard, stanford, yale, columbia, berkeley?

thanks!

Based purely on anecdote, I don't think you have much of a shot at HYS. Maybe if you were already at a T6, or at least a T14.
Why exactly do you want to transfer? If it's just for the sake of leveraging a better scholarship at your school, that makes sense. With your resume and grades you probably have very good career prospects from your current school.

[LawLschool101]

I'm interested in getting back to CA and working in the Bay Area. My school does well regionally (MW) but doesn't really send students to the coasts. I'd like to work Big-Law for a few years and eventually opening my own firm would be the dream. I think the top law schools' alumni networks can be really beneficial and might just be worth the extra money.

[ymmv]

I'm interested in getting back to CA and working in the Bay Area. My school does well regionally (MW) but doesn't really send students to the coasts. I'd like to work Big-Law for a few years and eventually opening my own firm would be the dream. I think the top law schools' alumni networks can be really beneficial and might just be worth the extra money.

I can maybe see it being worth shooting for Boalt then; it would also give you the advantage of two OCIs. Either way, if you're from SF and in the top 6% of your class you probably have as good a shot (or better) as any median Columbia student trying to get to the Bay Area, so I certainly wouldn't bother transferring there.

[transferror]

I think it's at least worth your time to send out the apps if you're unsure or leaning towards transfer. Apply to HCCNMBPN and see what happens. Once you have an acceptance, leverage for more $$ at your current school and then figure out if it makes sense to leave. Trying to decide now isn't practical b/c you are CA specific rather than "biglaw or bust," so B would be a no-brainer but Michigan would be debatable. Good luck.

[raininthedesert]

As someone in Big Law who is involved in the hiring process, I would factor in both the risk of a lower class rank and access to OCI before transferring -- based on your stated goals.

Boalt, as an example, has close to 300 students and between 25% - 35% (in a good year) obtain Big Law which approximates to 100 students at most. You would need to be in that group to have a shot at Big Law and the lower you are the less likely to be able to practice in your specific field of interest.

Also make sure to proactively contact the schools you are interested to ensure that you have the same access to OCI as the other students. There are a number of schools where access to OCI is inhibited due to the inability to obtain a class rank as a result of transferring and other issues related to your standing versus other students, etc.

Our firm would view your current class rank, and preferably a continued upward trend into the top 5%, at your current school far more favorably then transferring to a T14 and ending up in the Top 50% or even Top 30%. If you can continue your excellent work where you are at and establish strong relationships with those professors that have private sector ties, you will be infinitely better off then if you transfer. Same goes for federal clerkships which are potentially accessible to you now but are almost never achieved once you transfer (exception being Yale Law School).

[Danger Zone]

As someone in Big Law who is involved in the hiring process, I would factor in both the risk of a lower class rank and access to OCI before transferring -- based on your stated goals.

Boalt, as an example, has close to 300 students and between 25% - 35% (in a good year) obtain Big Law which approximates to 100 students at most. You would need to be in that group to have a shot at Big Law and the lower you are the less likely to be able to practice in your specific field of interest.

Also make sure to proactively contact the schools you are interested to ensure that you have the same access to OCI as the other students. There are a number of schools where access to OCI is inhibited due to the inability to obtain a class rank as a result of transferring and other issues related to your standing versus other students, etc.

Our firm would view your current class rank, and preferably a continued upward trend into the top 5%, at your current school far more favorably then transferring to a T14 and ending up in the Top 50% or even Top 30%. If you can continue your excellent work where you are at and establish strong relationships with those professors that have private sector ties, you will be infinitely better off then if you transfer. Same goes for federal clerkships which are potentially accessible to you now but are almost never achieved once you transfer (exception being Yale Law School).

OP will be going into OCI with these grades. They won't go up or down before then, regardless of transfer.

[raininthedesert]

Additional thought: I would also recommend that, if you decide to stay put, you spent your 3L year as a visiting law student at a higher ranked school in the market in which you would like to live and work after graduation. Your status as a visiting student will allow you ample opportunity throughout your 3L year to do local externships, potentially access OCI, and build relationships advantageous to your objectives. Even better if your 2L summer is in your target market and you just stay out there for your 3L year.

[raininthedesert]

OP will be going into OCI with these grades. They won't go up or down before then, regardless of transfer.[/quote]

Again, OP should contact each school he is interested in transferring to in order to confirm. OCI is not a given at all schools he might want to transfer to in the fall.

[transferror]

Again, OP should contact each school he is interested in transferring to in order to confirm. OCI is not a given at all schools he might want to transfer to in the fall.

Cornell is the only T14 school that doesn't allow transfers to participate in OCI, and transferring to a non-T14 (USC/UCLA are a stretch) would not be worth giving up OP's rank, LR, scholarship, etc...

raininthedesert - Your numbers for Boalt biglaw are way off as are your understandings of transferring/OCI/value of being a visiting student...

[Jchance]

Additional thought: I would also recommend that, if you decide to stay put, you spent your 3L year as a visiting law student at a higher ranked school in the market in which you would like to live and work after graduation. Your status as a visiting student will allow you ample opportunity throughout your 3L year to do local externships, potentially access OCI, and build relationships advantageous to your objectives. Even better if your 2L summer is in your target market and you just stay out there for your 3L year.

So instead of taking out an extra $120k as a transfer, you're suggesting for OP to take out 60k as a visiting student? Ok, so he gets to keep his high class rank, but he may strike out at OCI and scramble for a job (read not Biglaw) during 3L, and won't have a diploma from T14 that he already paid half price for

[deebanger]

I'm interested in getting back to CA and working in the Bay Area. My school does well regionally (MW) but doesn't really send students to the coasts. I'd like to work Big-Law for a few years and eventually opening my own firm would be the dream. I think the top law schools' alumni networks can be really beneficial and might just be worth the extra money.

so, norte dame or wash u?

[DoveBodyWash]

I'm interested in getting back to CA and working in the Bay Area. My school does well regionally (MW) but doesn't really send students to the coasts. I'd like to work Big-Law for a few years and eventually opening my own firm would be the dream. I think the top law schools' alumni networks can be really beneficial and might just be worth the extra money.

so, norte dame or wash u?

It's not WUSTL, our GPA's are inflated so 3.69 is right around top third for us, and our cutoffs haven't been released yet.

Personally i think if you're truly that set on California then you should send some applications and make a decision after you have some California options. I know that "wants California" changes the transfer equation here at WUSTL because our placement there is just so poor

[Danger Zone]

Additional thought: I would also recommend that, if you decide to stay put, you spent your 3L year as a visiting law student at a higher ranked school in the market in which you would like to live and work after graduation. Your status as a visiting student will allow you ample opportunity throughout your 3L year to do local externships, potentially access OCI, and build relationships advantageous to your objectives. Even better if your 2L summer is in your target market and you just stay out there for your 3L year.

Your advice ITT has been pretty awful. Visiting students don't get to re-do OCI. They get stuck with the other 3Ls at whatever passes for a 3L OCI (hint: no one gets hired out of that). The only reason to visit is to go to a different market, which OP might consider legitimate since OP is looking for a job in CA.

[transferhopes2013]

Based on heavy involvement in last years transfer cycle, I would estimate your chances at getting into Boalt at 80%~. I'd take a shot at H, but really no chance at YS (although, it won't hurt to apply). Beyond that, not sure of the benefit the other schools mentioned would provide in placing you in CA, although that's beyond the scope of my knowledge.

Good luck! PM if you want to chat more.

[sparty99]

$120,000 in more debt is a lot of money just to "upgrade" schools. At this point, you are almost a shoe-in for Big Law unless you suck at interviewing. You should go to at least five career fairs this summer. Go to Lavender Law where you will meet all the big time firms. Your goal is CA, but you can save the money and apply through mass mail. You are already from there.

If you land any Big Law job, try to get a firm with multiple offices. Work there for 1-2 years and transfer to CA. Unless you really want CA that bad, I'm not sure $120,000 in extra debt is worth it. You are already the top dawg at your school. You will have the pick of the litter. Chicago. Minneapolis. Detroit. You should stay unless you get Harvard, Stanford, Yale.

[echooo23]

$120,000 in more debt is a lot of money just to "upgrade" schools. At this point, you are almost a shoe-in for Big Law unless you suck at interviewing. You should go to at least five career fairs this summer. Go to Lavender Law where you will meet all the big time firms. Your goal is CA, but you can save the money and apply through mass mail. You are already from there.

If you land any Big Law job, try to get a firm with multiple offices. Work there for 1-2 years and transfer to CA. Unless you really want CA that bad, I'm not sure $120,000 in extra debt is worth it. You are already the top dawg at your school. You will have the pick of the litter. Chicago. Minneapolis. Detroit. You should stay unless you get Harvard, Stanford, Yale.

Why would you recommend Lavender Law? OP did not indicate that s/he is LGBT.

[SLS_AMG]

As someone in Big Law who is involved in the hiring process, I would factor in both the risk of a lower class rank and access to OCI before transferring -- based on your stated goals.

Boalt, as an example, has close to 300 students and between 25% - 35% (in a good year) obtain Big Law which approximates to 100 students at most. You would need to be in that group to have a shot at Big Law and the lower you are the less likely to be able to practice in your specific field of interest.

Also make sure to proactively contact the schools you are interested to ensure that you have the same access to OCI as the other students. There are a number of schools where access to OCI is inhibited due to the inability to obtain a class rank as a result of transferring and other issues related to your standing versus other students, etc.

Our firm would view your current class rank, and preferably a continued upward trend into the top 5%, at your current school far more favorably then transferring to a T14 and ending up in the Top 50% or even Top 30%. If you can continue your excellent work where you are at and establish strong relationships with those professors that have private sector ties, you will be infinitely better off then if you transfer. Same goes for federal clerkships which are potentially accessible to you now but are almost never achieved once you transfer (exception being Yale Law School).

This is one of the worst posts I've ever seen. I am having a very hard time believing that this poster really works in big law at all - let alone makes hiring decisions at a big law firm - considering his/her (lack of) knowledge of the subject. Berkeley has averaged sending about 50% of its class into big law the last two years, yet this poster believes 35% is a good year? This is a very important decision for OP to be making, and the last thing s/he needs is terrible advice like this.

[sparty99]

$120,000 in more debt is a lot of money just to "upgrade" schools. At this point, you are almost a shoe-in for Big Law unless you suck at interviewing. You should go to at least five career fairs this summer. Go to Lavender Law where you will meet all the big time firms. Your goal is CA, but you can save the money and apply through mass mail. You are already from there.

If you land any Big Law job, try to get a firm with multiple offices. Work there for 1-2 years and transfer to CA. Unless you really want CA that bad, I'm not sure $120,000 in extra debt is worth it. You are already the top dawg at your school. You will have the pick of the litter. Chicago. Minneapolis. Detroit. You should stay unless you get Harvard, Stanford, Yale.

Why would you recommend Lavender Law? OP did not indicate that s/he is LGBT.

Being LGBT is not a prerequsite to attending LavLaw. At LavLaw, you actually meet attorneys and get interviews. It is very big law oriented and national firms. This year it's in nYc, so probably a heavy contention of NY firms there. It's also one of the last career fairs of the summer so it might not conflict with the others. Top 6% at a T30, I would have to think would get call-backs. You can easily talk to 15 or more firms at the LavLaw career fair. I'd research the firms a head of time.

[shock259]

Don't listen to that guy who is claiming to be involved in biglaw hiring. Rubbish advice.

If you really want to be in CA, you 1) shouldn't have gone to a school in the midwest that doesn't place well in biglaw, and 2) need to get out of that school. Apply to transfer! You'll have a good shot at Columbia and below, and Columbia should get you a comfortable number of biglaw options in CA with your GPA/class rank. I had slightly lower grades from a slightly lower-ranked school and got accepted to Columbia. I also got a lot of offers from firms at EIP. I did NY, not CA, but I have a lot of friends that are going to CA (many of whom are transfers). Very doable market from Columbia.

Good luck!

[raininthedesert]

As someone in Big Law who is involved in the hiring process, I would factor in both the risk of a lower class rank and access to OCI before transferring -- based on your stated goals.

Boalt, as an example, has close to 300 students and between 25% - 35% (in a good year) obtain Big Law which approximates to 100 students at most. You would need to be in that group to have a shot at Big Law and the lower you are the less likely to be able to practice in your specific field of interest.

Also make sure to proactively contact the schools you are interested to ensure that you have the same access to OCI as the other students. There are a number of schools where access to OCI is inhibited due to the inability to obtain a class rank as a result of transferring and other issues related to your standing versus other students, etc.

Our firm would view your current class rank, and preferably a continued upward trend into the top 5%, at your current school far more favorably then transferring to a T14 and ending up in the Top 50% or even Top 30%. If you can continue your excellent work where you are at and establish strong relationships with those professors that have private sector ties, you will be infinitely better off then if you transfer. Same goes for federal clerkships which are potentially accessible to you now but are almost never achieved once you transfer (exception being Yale Law School).

This is one of the worst posts I've ever seen. I am having a very hard time believing that this poster really works in big law at all - let alone makes hiring decisions at a big law firm - considering his/her (lack of) knowledge of the subject. Berkeley has averaged sending about 50% of its class into big law the last two years, yet this poster believes 35% is a good year? This is a very important decision for OP to be making, and the last thing s/he needs is terrible advice like this.

Giving factual and rational factors to consider warrants "worst posts I've ever seen"??? You obviously don't care about the OP.

#1: I'm quite familiar with Berkeley Law and if you simply look at their stats you will note 50% of their students get into law firms -- NOT all of those firms are considered Big Law (not sure why on earth you think Berkeley Law places 50% of ALL its students in Big Law). #2 OP wants a very specific type of Big Law that lends itself to working with VC's etc. #3: It is a very important decision and I do handle hiring so you might want to keep mum on something you know nothing about...fact is, if he is in the top ten students (% is less important because it depends on the size of the class) at a Top 30 school he is in a far better position for clerkships, Big Law, etc. then gambling on an unknown at a T14 that's not Yale, Harvard, etc.

As to shock259, since we are fellow alums from Columbia, the OP didn't mention Columbia. He was hypothesizing a T14 on the lower side. At Columbia as well as some others...the calculus clearly changes. It's not for me to say which schools specifically warrant transferring to...if you would like to give him that advice great. I'm all for transferring under the right conditions but some people are far too quick to push for transferring to a T14 regardless of the school and that can be very poor advice depending upon the context. The two biggest concerns that need to be investigated or addressed by OP are how the new school handles class rank, grades, and OCI upon transfer as well as some assessment of risk of not doing as well at the new school.

OP also needs to let us know what school he is attending. Vanderbilt in the midwest might give us a different sense of what he should do versus Washington U.

[Danger Zone]

#1: I'm quite familiar with Berkeley Law and if you simply look at their stats you will note 50% of their students get into law firms -- NOT all of those firms are considered Big Law (not sure why on earth you think Berkeley Law places 50% of ALL its students in Big Law).

WAT

Fed Clerk: 8%

PLUS one of the following:
Firms w/ 100+ attys: 47.8%
Or if you only care about NLJ 250 firms: 44.85%

Either way, that adds up to more than fifty. Unless you only consider firms with 500+ attys to be big law, in which case fucking LOL.

[transferror]

As someone in Big Law who is involved in the hiring process, I would factor in both the risk of a lower class rank and access to OCI before transferring -- based on your stated goals.

Boalt, as an example, has close to 300 students and between 25% - 35% (in a good year) obtain Big Law which approximates to 100 students at most. You would need to be in that group to have a shot at Big Law and the lower you are the less likely to be able to practice in your specific field of interest.

Also make sure to proactively contact the schools you are interested to ensure that you have the same access to OCI as the other students. There are a number of schools where access to OCI is inhibited due to the inability to obtain a class rank as a result of transferring and other issues related to your standing versus other students, etc.

Our firm would view your current class rank, and preferably a continued upward trend into the top 5%, at your current school far more favorably then transferring to a T14 and ending up in the Top 50% or even Top 30%. If you can continue your excellent work where you are at and establish strong relationships with those professors that have private sector ties, you will be infinitely better off then if you transfer. Same goes for federal clerkships which are potentially accessible to you now but are almost never achieved once you transfer (exception being Yale Law School).

This is one of the worst posts I've ever seen. I am having a very hard time believing that this poster really works in big law at all - let alone makes hiring decisions at a big law firm - considering his/her (lack of) knowledge of the subject. Berkeley has averaged sending about 50% of its class into big law the last two years, yet this poster believes 35% is a good year? This is a very important decision for OP to be making, and the last thing s/he needs is terrible advice like this.

Giving factual and rational factors to consider warrants "worst posts I've ever seen"??? You obviously don't care about the OP.

#1: I'm quite familiar with Berkeley Law and if you simply look at their stats you will note 50% of their students get into law firms -- NOT all of those firms are considered Big Law (not sure why on earth you think Berkeley Law places 50% of ALL its students in Big Law). #2 OP wants a very specific type of Big Law that lends itself to working with VC's etc. #3: It is a very important decision and I do handle hiring so you might want to keep mum on something you know nothing about...fact is, if he is in the top ten students (% is less important because it depends on the size of the class) at a Top 30 school he is in a far better position for clerkships, Big Law, etc. then gambling on an unknown at a T14 that's not Yale, Harvard, etc.

As to shock259, since we are fellow alums from Columbia, the OP didn't mention Columbia. He was hypothesizing a T14 on the lower side. At Columbia as well as some others...the calculus clearly changes. It's not for me to say which schools specifically warrant transferring to...if you would like to give him that advice great. I'm all for transferring under the right conditions but some people are far too quick to push for transferring to a T14 regardless of the school and that can be very poor advice depending upon the context. The two biggest concerns that need to be investigated or addressed by OP are how the new school handles class rank, grades, and OCI upon transfer as well as some assessment of risk of not doing as well at the new school.

OP also needs to let us know what school he is attending. Vanderbilt in the midwest might give us a different sense of what he should do versus Washington U.

I don't even know where to begin.

1) Last year, Berkeley placed 144 in firms of 101+, and another 26 in Fed Clerkships, of which almost all will end up in biglaw. That accounts for over 50% of the class, and that number was down from 2012. Btw, even if you don't include firms of 101-250 to be "biglaw" and you were to only include firms >250 + Fedclerks, it's still half the class.

2) "% is less important because it depends on size of the class"...you realize that's the point of percentage, right, to account for differing class sizes?

3) OP isn't gambling on an "unknown" T14, he will be going through OCI with a stellar GPA before ever even taking an exam at the new school. In T14 world, OCI is where ppl get jobs that turn into permanent offers. Some transfers strike out, I get it, but I can almost guarantee that the percent of transfers that strike out at OCI at any T14 is far, far lower than the percent of students that strike out at OP's T30 OCI.

4) Yeah, so Vanderbilt is in the southeast. That isn't debatable or close or a common mistake to make, it's just wrong. Also, saying the calculus changes b/t Vandy and Wash U is pretty stupid since they are peer schools. I definitely give Vandy the edge, but it's absurd to say the calculus might b/t a transfer to Vandy vs. Wash U for someone who wants to end up in Cali

5) Please Stop

[SLS_AMG]

As someone in Big Law who is involved in the hiring process, I would factor in both the risk of a lower class rank and access to OCI before transferring -- based on your stated goals.

Boalt, as an example, has close to 300 students and between 25% - 35% (in a good year) obtain Big Law which approximates to 100 students at most. You would need to be in that group to have a shot at Big Law and the lower you are the less likely to be able to practice in your specific field of interest.

Also make sure to proactively contact the schools you are interested to ensure that you have the same access to OCI as the other students. There are a number of schools where access to OCI is inhibited due to the inability to obtain a class rank as a result of transferring and other issues related to your standing versus other students, etc.

Our firm would view your current class rank, and preferably a continued upward trend into the top 5%, at your current school far more favorably then transferring to a T14 and ending up in the Top 50% or even Top 30%. If you can continue your excellent work where you are at and establish strong relationships with those professors that have private sector ties, you will be infinitely better off then if you transfer. Same goes for federal clerkships which are potentially accessible to you now but are almost never achieved once you transfer (exception being Yale Law School).

This is one of the worst posts I've ever seen. I am having a very hard time believing that this poster really works in big law at all - let alone makes hiring decisions at a big law firm - considering his/her (lack of) knowledge of the subject. Berkeley has averaged sending about 50% of its class into big law the last two years, yet this poster believes 35% is a good year? This is a very important decision for OP to be making, and the last thing s/he needs is terrible advice like this.

Giving factual and rational factors to consider warrants "worst posts I've ever seen"??? You obviously don't care about the OP.

#1: I'm quite familiar with Berkeley Law and if you simply look at their stats you will note 50% of their students get into law firms -- NOT all of those firms are considered Big Law (not sure why on earth you think Berkeley Law places 50% of ALL its students in Big Law). #2 OP wants a very specific type of Big Law that lends itself to working with VC's etc. #3: It is a very important decision and I do handle hiring so you might want to keep mum on something you know nothing about...fact is, if he is in the top ten students (% is less important because it depends on the size of the class) at a Top 30 school he is in a far better position for clerkships, Big Law, etc. then gambling on an unknown at a T14 that's not Yale, Harvard, etc.

As to shock259, since we are fellow alums from Columbia, the OP didn't mention Columbia. He was hypothesizing a T14 on the lower side. At Columbia as well as some others...the calculus clearly changes. It's not for me to say which schools specifically warrant transferring to...if you would like to give him that advice great. I'm all for transferring under the right conditions but some people are far too quick to push for transferring to a T14 regardless of the school and that can be very poor advice depending upon the context. The two biggest concerns that need to be investigated or addressed by OP are how the new school handles class rank, grades, and OCI upon transfer as well as some assessment of risk of not doing as well at the new school.

OP also needs to let us know what school he is attending. Vanderbilt in the midwest might give us a different sense of what he should do versus Washington U.

Can someone please ban this troll? His posts are not only wrong, but they're dangerously wrong in forums where students are seeking real help.

[Nebby]

To sum up the credible advice in this thread: Transfer to Berkeley.