CCN (30%) --> HLS Forum

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at CCN. I expect to do about the same this semester.

My SO got a job in Boston, which is compelling me to try to transfer to HLS. I also want to work in Boston (biglaw) after law school (but already have ties beyond SO).

My questions

1) Do I have a shot?

2) Worth it?

[DoveBodyWash]

1. def worth it lol, unless you're on full ride at CLS or something...

2. I dunno about your chances, but I know that the #1 kid from CLS transferred to HLS last year..and i've hung out with the HLS transfers on a number of occasions and all of the ones i met were #1 or #2 in their class. Obviously that doesn't mean you don't have a chance, but it does seem that even the best students from CCN will be your competitors.

[WheninLaw]

1. def worth it lol, unless you're on full ride at CLS or something...

2. I dunno about your chances, but I know that the #1 kid from CLS transferred to HLS last year..and i've hung out with the HLS transfers on a number of occasions and all of the ones i met were #1 or #2 in their class. Obviously that doesn't mean you don't have a chance, but it does seem that even the best students from CCN will be your competitors.

That blows my mind, and seems like a generally terrible decision. I would think the advantage of being #1 at Columbia would blow away any advantage from going to Harvard. Hell, the top 5% at Chicago are handed appellate clerkships before they get a single 2L grade.

So "definitely worth it lol" seems like awful advice. If I were you, I'd compare the placement power in Boston of [current school] to H, and decide how much that is worth to you.

[DoveBodyWash]

1. def worth it lol, unless you're on full ride at CLS or something...

2. I dunno about your chances, but I know that the #1 kid from CLS transferred to HLS last year..and i've hung out with the HLS transfers on a number of occasions and all of the ones i met were #1 or #2 in their class. Obviously that doesn't mean you don't have a chance, but it does seem that even the best students from CCN will be your competitors.

That blows my mind, and seems like a generally terrible decision. I would think the advantage of being #1 at Columbia would blow away any advantage from going to Harvard. Hell, the top 5% at Chicago are handed appellate clerkships before they get a single 2L grade.

So "definitely worth it lol" seems like awful advice. If I were you, I'd compare the placement power in Boston of [current school] to H, and decide how much that is worth to you.

HLS is a different world...one of my professor's kids was admitted into HLS (sticker since no merit awards there) and CLS with full ride. He told her to go to HLS. And he wasn't one of those never-practiced-academics. He was chief counsel at a federal agency. There's a reason that #1 at CLS felt it was worth transferring to HLS.

If you're talking purely about job placement, then maybe it doesn't matter...but it sounds like there other benefits that come with the HLS (and YLS) brand that you can't get from the other schools. And obviously it depends on your goals too. If you're just trying to get any 'ol BigLaw job and plan to leave before you're a senior associate, then yeah there's no point in transferring..but different career goals will change the equation.

But i mean, i'm not applying to HLS for transfer or anything, so I don't have any skin this debate..this is just from talking to HLS transfers that i know personally. A lot of this will depend on the individual's debt aversion and goals.

So "definitely worth it lol" seems like awful advice.

ETA: Also, i said it was only definitely worth it if you weren't on full ride (or close to full ride i guess) at CLS. If you're already paying sticker at CLS, then it's clearly worth it. Remember to account for the difference in COL between NYC and Cambridge when calculating how much more HLS will cost

[WheninLaw]

HLS is a different world...one of my professor's kids was admitted into HLS (sticker since no merit awards there) and CLS with full ride. He told her to go to HLS. And he wasn't one of those never-practiced-academics. He was chief counsel at a federal agency. There's a reason that #1 at CLS felt it was worth transferring to HLS.

If you're talking purely about job placement, then maybe it doesn't matter...but it sounds like there other benefits that come with the HLS (and YLS) brand that you can't get from the other schools. And obviously it depends on your goals too. If you're just trying to get any 'ol BigLaw job and plan to leave before you're a senior associate, then yeah there's no point in transferring..but different career goals will change the equation.

But i mean, i'm not applying to HLS for transfer or anything, so I don't have any skin this debate..this is just from talking to HLS transfers that i know personally. A lot of this will depend on the individual's debt aversion and goals.

ETA: Also, i said it was only definitely worth it if you weren't on full ride (or close to full ride i guess) at CLS. If you're already paying sticker at CLS, then it's clearly worth it. Remember to account for the difference in COL between NYC and Cambridge when calculating how much more HLS will cost

This is objectively terrible advice. "HLS is a different world" + your random anecdote is meaningless. "If you're talking purely about job placement then it doesn't matter" -- what else should matter? What random intangibles do you think HLS offers? If you seriously think that the average HLS has better career prospects than the #1 student at CLS, then I do not know what to tell you. It is simply wrong.

[DoveBodyWash]

HLS is a different world...one of my professor's kids was admitted into HLS (sticker since no merit awards there) and CLS with full ride. He told her to go to HLS. And he wasn't one of those never-practiced-academics. He was chief counsel at a federal agency. There's a reason that #1 at CLS felt it was worth transferring to HLS.

If you're talking purely about job placement, then maybe it doesn't matter...but it sounds like there other benefits that come with the HLS (and YLS) brand that you can't get from the other schools. And obviously it depends on your goals too. If you're just trying to get any 'ol BigLaw job and plan to leave before you're a senior associate, then yeah there's no point in transferring..but different career goals will change the equation.

But i mean, i'm not applying to HLS for transfer or anything, so I don't have any skin this debate..this is just from talking to HLS transfers that i know personally. A lot of this will depend on the individual's debt aversion and goals.

ETA: Also, i said it was only definitely worth it if you weren't on full ride (or close to full ride i guess) at CLS. If you're already paying sticker at CLS, then it's clearly worth it. Remember to account for the difference in COL between NYC and Cambridge when calculating how much more HLS will cost

This is objectively terrible advice. "HLS is a different world" + your random anecdote is meaningless. "If you're talking purely about job placement then it doesn't matter" -- what else should matter? What random intangibles do you think HLS offers? If you seriously think that the average HLS has better career prospects than the #1 student at CLS, then I do not know what to tell you. It is simply wrong.

well for starters, HLS loan forgiveness for public interest grads is an example of a benefit you get as a HLS student that you wouldn't get as #1 CLS student. And i'm not saying that HLS gives you better short-term job prospects than #1 CLS student, there's a limit to how good of a job a new grad can get from any school. But there's a reason UChi and CLS offer things like Ruby and still have trouble competing with HLS for incoming students. For whatever reason HLS and YLS (and i guess SLS) command a certain brand power. And whether it's warranted or not is a matter of opinion. But it exists and that kind of allure matters in a prestige-obsessed profession.

And i dunno why that CLS student transferred, just that he did. I'm sure he had his reasons. But i refuse to believe that someone was smart enough to be #1 at CLS didn't think about the decision before he transferred, there was obviously a reason. Maybe he was paying sticker, in which case HLS would actually be cheaper due to the lower COL. Maybe he wanted to take advantage of HLS' loan forgiveness program (there's a thread explaining the difference between H's loan forgiveness and everyone else, but i forget where it is lol)

Maybe my statement that it's "definitely worth it" was hasty. But there are situations where it would make total sense. If OP is paying sticker at CCN and has personal reasons for needing to be in Boston, then why wouldn't he transfer to HLS? If he wants to go into public interest work, then why wouldn't he transfer to HLS? You could be on 50% scholarship at CCN and HLS at sticker would be the better option if you're pursuing public interest.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. To clarify:

1) This is not about how much better HLS is than CCN. I could care less about the marginal prestige difference. And I would never, ever take HLS at sticker over a full ride at CCN, FWIW. Ignore my loan situation for this decision.
2) I am not '#1' in my class. I'm roughly in the top-third of my class. So the argument isn't "No. 1 at CCN vs. HLS Transfer." With my good, but not exceptional grades, you can assume I probably won't make Law Review.

I am not looking for advice on COL, clerking, etc. I am concerned with the following factors:

a) How realistic my odds are at successfully transferring, given my grades and my concrete reason for wanting to be in Boston (again, SO and other very well-established ties). I had agreed to TA for a professor next year, so I would need to ask them for a LOR instead--which might be awkward and unnecessary if I really have no shot.
b) If transferring to HLS would seriously help or harm my OCI process next fall (again, the goal is Boston biglaw).

TL/DR: Do I have a chance? & Would I be making a mistake?

[WheninLaw]

well for starters, HLS loan forgiveness for public interest grads is an example of a benefit you get as a HLS student that you wouldn't get as #1 CLS student. And i'm not saying that HLS gives you better short-term job prospects than #1 CLS student, there's a limit to how good of a job a new grad can get from any school. But there's a reason UChi and CLS offer things like Ruby and still have trouble competing with HLS for incoming students. For whatever reason HLS and YLS (and i guess SLS) command a certain brand power. And whether it's warranted or not is a matter of opinion. But it exists and that kind of allure matters in a prestige-obsessed profession.

And i dunno why that CLS student transferred, just that he did. I'm sure he had his reasons. But i refuse to believe that someone was smart enough to be #1 at CLS didn't think about the decision before he transferred, there was obviously a reason. Maybe he was paying sticker, in which case HLS would actually be cheaper due to the lower COL. Maybe he wanted to take advantage of HLS' loan forgiveness program (there's a thread explaining the difference between H's loan forgiveness and everyone else, but i forget where it is lol)

Maybe my statement that it's "definitely worth it" was hasty. But there are situations where it would make total sense. If OP is paying sticker at CCN and has personal reasons for needing to be in Boston, then why wouldn't he transfer to HLS? If he wants to go into public interest work, then why wouldn't he transfer to HLS? You could be on 50% scholarship at CCN and HLS at sticker would be the better option if you're pursuing public interest.

My last post here, since I think we are derailing this.

The reason why 0L's choose HLS (at or near sticker) over the Ruby/Hamilton is because they either have some hyper specific goal that YHS is necessary for (5% of the time) or because they are making an uninformed decision (95% of the time). Those schools have a great brand, but what you are missing is what we are comparing them to here - someone in the top-third of their class at CCN. Are there situations in which it makes sense to transfer? Absolutely. Is it correct to just assert that regardless of situation? No.

The last paragraph is exactly my point. There are good reasons to transfer, maybe one of them being PI...but that is not what OP wants, who clearly said Boston Big Law. You have gone completely 180. Initially, anyone at CCN without a full ride should transfer. Now it is people that want to do PI. Where we agree is that the decision is an individual one based on your current standing and future goals.

[DoveBodyWash]

TL/DR: Do I have a chance? & Would I be making a mistake?

Apologies for derailing! Personally i think you have a shot, at least good enough to apply. Since you want Boston BigLaw and since you don't want us to consider loans at all, I don't think you'd be making a mistake. Especially since you have ties to Boston beyond your SO. At OCI you'll only have your CCN grades/honors/activities. But employers will be hiring a HLS grad by taking you. And it's not like you're coming from a TTT. You're coming from CCN, i doubt the Boston employers will turn their noses up at you, especially if you tell them that the reason you transferred to HLS was because you're committed to working in Boston etc...

You have gone completely 180. Initially, anyone at CCN without a full ride should transfer. Now it is people that want to do PI

LOL...fml. Yeah the former was just my personal opinion (what-i-would-do) and the latter was just my attempt at giving an example of a situation that would justify the transfer to someone who wasn't as prestige-whore as I am lol

Where we agree is that the decision is an individual one based on your current standing and future goals.

+1

[7ED]

CCN to HLS transfer here. I can say that at least two of three CCN transfers here right now had pretty specific personal reasons for transferring. If you are doing it for career reasons, short of academia that is going to be a bad idea. For one, CCN is on par with HLS when it comes to biglaw options (although obvious edge for Boston market). For another, you are going to need to be able to justify your decision during EIP, and the interviewers will *all* look on you with just a hint of suspicion that you might be a flight risk to academia. Nevertheless, if you are in a position to transfer, you will basically get an offer from a firm whether you are at CCN or HLS. The problem is that the move is obviously a bit annoying, and unless you have a personal reason for making the jump, it is frankly a pointless endeavor.

*edit* I would add that there is also an SLS transfer here. Like I said earlier. All personal reasons for making the jump. As for chances... top 30% is honestly low but I think you might have a shot depending on how the adcoms find the rest of your application.

[Chrstgtr]

edit

[DoveBodyWash]

I agree that transferring is pointless unless you have a very personal reason to do so or are set on academia.

Also with regard to the person above referencing a CLS student ranked #1 and with a full ride who transferred I would be interested in what their reasons for transferring were since a person with a full ride likely would've been accepted as a 0L.

No idea what his scholly was at CLS, I don't think I said he was on a full ride, sorry if I did or if I was confusing

[Chrstgtr]

I agree that transferring is pointless unless you have a very personal reason to do so or are set on academia.

Also with regard to the person above referencing a CLS student ranked #1 and with a full ride who transferred I would be interested in what their reasons for transferring were since a person with a full ride likely would've been accepted as a 0L.

No idea what his scholly was at CLS, I don't think I said he was on a full ride, sorry if I did or if I was confusing

Just checked, sorry I confused it with the professor's kid who turned down CLS with full scholly for HLS

[09042014]

1. def worth it lol, unless you're on full ride at CLS or something...

2. I dunno about your chances, but I know that the #1 kid from CLS transferred to HLS last year..and i've hung out with the HLS transfers on a number of occasions and all of the ones i met were #1 or #2 in their class. Obviously that doesn't mean you don't have a chance, but it does seem that even the best students from CCN will be your competitors.

That blows my mind, and seems like a generally terrible decision. I would think the advantage of being #1 at Columbia would blow away any advantage from going to Harvard. Hell, the top 5% at Chicago are handed appellate clerkships before they get a single 2L grade.

So "definitely worth it lol" seems like awful advice. If I were you, I'd compare the placement power in Boston of [current school] to H, and decide how much that is worth to you.

HLS is a different world...one of my professor's kids was admitted into HLS (sticker since no merit awards there) and CLS with full ride. He told her to go to HLS. And he wasn't one of those never-practiced-academics. He was chief counsel at a federal agency. There's a reason that #1 at CLS felt it was worth transferring to HLS.

If you're talking purely about job placement, then maybe it doesn't matter...but it sounds like there other benefits that come with the HLS (and YLS) brand that you can't get from the other schools. And obviously it depends on your goals too. If you're just trying to get any 'ol BigLaw job and plan to leave before you're a senior associate, then yeah there's no point in transferring..but different career goals will change the equation.

But i mean, i'm not applying to HLS for transfer or anything, so I don't have any skin this debate..this is just from talking to HLS transfers that i know personally. A lot of this will depend on the individual's debt aversion and goals.

So "definitely worth it lol" seems like awful advice.

ETA: Also, i said it was only definitely worth it if you weren't on full ride (or close to full ride i guess) at CLS. If you're already paying sticker at CLS, then it's clearly worth it. Remember to account for the difference in COL between NYC and Cambridge when calculating how much more HLS will cost

lol just lol

[7ED]

Hi again. Transfer checking in. The person the above poster was referring to would like to add that s/he was not only number 1 at CLS, and recipient of multiple full ride scholarships, but also president of the law review and publicly declared most popular person by the acclamation of his/her classmates.

The amount of misinformation on this forum due to "my friend of a friend of a friend.." posts is amazing.

[Nebby]

Yo dawg, I heard you like anecdotal evidence. So I put anecdotal evidence of anecdotal evidence in my anecdotal post so you can really get the feeling.

[silverino123]

Hi guys. Theoretical #1 CLS transfer here (I say theoretical b/c we don't know the rankings so I don't know if I was #1, but I am definitely the transfer you're talking about). Firstly, I'm a woman, so thanks for assuming it was a guy whoever said that. Secondly, I transferred because my husband was going to school at Harvard. Both are great schools.

[7ED]

^Mock humility on the interwebz? What are you, polite or something?

[Mal Reynolds]

Isn't cuse a 1L at some T25? How the hell does he know anything about HLS?

[silverino123]

^Mock humility on the interwebz? What are you, polite or something?

Will you be my best friend? Maybe we can transfer together?

[09042014]

Isn't cuse a 1L at some T25? How the hell does he know anything about HLS?

What do you know about PRESTIGE. Your whore mouth isn't fit to say HARVARD LAW.

Transfering to Harvard is work 120k dollars for the PRESTIGE ALONE.

[silverino123]

Isn't cuse a 1L at some T25? How the hell does he know anything about HLS?

Not sure who cusenation is, but he obviously doesn't know that much about the HLS transfer group if he referred to me as a "he"...

[Mal Reynolds]

Isn't cuse a 1L at some T25? How the hell does he know anything about HLS?

What do you know about PRESTIGE. Your whore mouth isn't fit to say HARVARD LAW.

Transfering to Harvard is work 120k dollars for the PRESTIGE ALONE.

Why do you think I have my Harvard acceptance letter framed on my wall? People ask me if I went to Harvard and I tell them I turned it down.

[7ED]

Isn't cuse a 1L at some T25? How the hell does he know anything about HLS?

What do you know about PRESTIGE. Your whore mouth isn't fit to say HARVARD LAW.

Transfering to Harvard is work 120k dollars for the PRESTIGE ALONE.

Hah-vahd is a diverse and open community that embraces the vagabond masses with open arms. But srsly, to the OP, they are going to get no help on this forum for this kind of jump, because it is such an individualized decision.

[DoveBodyWash]

LOL okay my b, yeah i realize that none of this was first-hand knowledge to me, it was just stuff i had heard through the grapevine and thought it might be helpful to know. But my mistake!