Transfer from Cornell Forum

[Mentally_AFK]

I've posted once before asking about this, but I phrased my question badly and ended up getting mostly responses to a side question.

I'm sitting at a 3.9 on a 4.33 at Cornell (historically well within top 5%), and I have no reason to believe I'll do any worse this semester. I'm also a research assistant to one professor, who I suspect will give me a great recommendation, and I have a few other professors I would be willing to ask. I really like Cornell; the people here are great and I don't particularly want to give up my connections with professors, but I'm only getting a ~5k scholarship and I'm not sure Cornell will get me where I want to go.

My pie-in-the-sky ambition is to go from a federal appellate clerkship straight to a major nonprofit like the ACLU or the SPLC. A more reasonable path might include a lengthy stint as a public defender. Unfortunately for me, Cornell's clerkship numbers aren't great, and it's mostly known as a BigLaw factory. I should note that I am not opposed to working in BigLaw for a few years, but my impression is that doing so kills any chance of working with most national nonprofits that litigate civil liberties issues.

So, my question is this: do I attempt to transfer upwards? And if so, how far do I need to transfer to a) make it worth it, and b) make my goals even remotely likely?

Oh, and side note: I heard once that Cornell doesn't negotiate scholarships with outgoing transfers. Can anyone confirm/deny?

[Nelson]

I would only transfer if no one from Cornell ever pursues your goals and I doubt that's true. I'm sure there are a handful of grads who pursue the route you're discussing each year and your grades set you up nicely to do the same if you want.

You should be able to clerk from Cornell with those grades. It sounds like you have good recs and doesn't Cornell still send like ~10% to clerkships? You should have a good shot with judges who regularly hire from Cornell. I think you probably give up more than you gain for clerking in terms of recommendations and law review.

Your goals seem a little odd though. A COA clerkship would set you up nicely for fellowships if you wanted to go that route. A clerkship would also set you up to go to a plaintiffs boutique. Would you be OK with COA into firm into public interest later? I don't know why you would think that kills your chance of working with a nonprofit later.

A federal clerkship is (almost) useless if you want to be a PD. It's not even remotely the same track as the other things you mention since criminal defense trial work is a totally different job. Federal defender is a different story but they usually hire people with experience.

[Jchance]

I'm only getting a ~5k scholarship

With such crappy scholly, 1 more reason to transfer out.

Where do you want to practice after, OP?

For clerkship, I'd only transfer to Y, or stay put and enjoy that high GPA + grade-on LR (?).

[Mentally_AFK]

I would only transfer if no one from Cornell ever pursues your goals and I doubt that's true. I'm sure there are a handful of grads who pursue the route you're discussing each year and your grades set you up nicely to do the same if you want.

I'm getting most of my ideas for what I should do to get to the ACLU or another major nonprofit from checking staff bios. And I've noticed that Cornell grads are essentially nonexistent at such organizations. That's a large factor in my desire to transfer. Also, reading staff bios is where I'm getting my ideas of what I should look to do before working at such an organization (i.e. clerkship, pd, etc..).

You should be able to clerk from Cornell with those grades. It sounds like you have good recs and doesn't Cornell still send like ~10% to clerkships? You should have a good shot with judges who regularly hire from Cornell. I think you probably give up more than you gain for clerking in terms of recommendations and law review.

Actually it's 6%. Cornell is far-and-away the worst of the t14 for clerkships, and there aren't many judges who hire from Cornell regularly.

[Big Dog]

A $5k discount is chump change.

I'd transfer up in a heartbeat (H is likely), unless Big Red comes to its senses and pays you to stay.

[Nomo]

Given your goals you need to transfer to the school with the best LRAP. Preferably one not tied to IBR. HYS would be excellent. I think Columbia's is also independent of IBR.

[rpupkin]

Tough situation. As you've observed, Cornell doesn't place particularly well in COA clerkships. On the other hand, the disintegration of the plan has made it increasingly difficult for transfers to land clerkships. With so many COA judges now extending interviews based on three (or even two) semesters of grades, it's hard for a transfer to gain traction at the new school.

You really want to develop a relationship with a professor or two who can pick up the phone and call a judge they know. With hiring shifting earlier in 2L year, a transfer will struggle to find the time to form those relationships. If your goal is to clerk immediately after graduating, you might want to stay at Cornell and leverage the relationships you've already developed with your 1L professors. Yeah, those professors would probably still be wiling to write rec letters for you if you transfer out, but I bet they won't pick up the phone and call on your behalf; they'll likely reserve those favors for the top students who remain at Cornell.

[Mentally_AFK]

Tough situation. As you've observed, Cornell doesn't place particularly well in COA clerkships. On the other hand, the disintegration of the plan has made it increasingly difficult for transfers to land clerkships. With so many COA judges now extending interviews based on three (or even two) semesters of grades, it's hard for a transfer to gain traction at the new school.

You really want to develop a relationship with a professor or two who can pick up the phone and call a judge they know. With hiring shifting earlier in 2L year, a transfer will struggle to find the time to form those relationships. If your goal is to clerk immediately after graduating, you might want to stay at Cornell and leverage the relationships you've already developed with your 1L professors. Yeah, those professors would probably still be wiling to write rec letters for you if you transfer out, but I bet they won't pick up the phone and call on your behalf; they'll likely reserve those favors for the top students who remain at Cornell.

Thanks for the advice. You've more or less exactly summed up my dilemma. Out of curiosity, which way did you end up voting? I assume it's to stay?

Also, random side note: is it much harder to get a clerkship after being out of law school for a year?

[Nebby]

I believe your best route will be to transfer out, summer 2015 SA position, fedearl clerkship upon graduation, then do BigLaw for 5 years. Then you'll be able to get that ACLU,SPLC gig in a second with 5 years of BigLaw experience.

Another reason I say this is because I don't know what your financial situation is. If there's no one helping you pay or if you're not rich, then you'll end up stacking on even more debt than Cornell currenlty would. So to go to a medicore paying clerkship followed by a medicore paying (but incredibly rewarding and important--don't get me wrong) job at the ACLU or SPLC, then you'll be paying off your debt for the next 25 years. A 5 year BigLaw stint will set you up as a pristine candidate for ACLU or other nonProfit work (especially if you have previous nonprofit work and/or volunteer work at a nonprofit).

[rpupkin]

Tough situation. As you've observed, Cornell doesn't place particularly well in COA clerkships. On the other hand, the disintegration of the plan has made it increasingly difficult for transfers to land clerkships. With so many COA judges now extending interviews based on three (or even two) semesters of grades, it's hard for a transfer to gain traction at the new school.

You really want to develop a relationship with a professor or two who can pick up the phone and call a judge they know. With hiring shifting earlier in 2L year, a transfer will struggle to find the time to form those relationships. If your goal is to clerk immediately after graduating, you might want to stay at Cornell and leverage the relationships you've already developed with your 1L professors. Yeah, those professors would probably still be wiling to write rec letters for you if you transfer out, but I bet they won't pick up the phone and call on your behalf; they'll likely reserve those favors for the top students who remain at Cornell.

Thanks for the advice. You've more or less exactly summed up my dilemma. Out of curiosity, which way did you end up voting? I assume it's to stay?

Also, random side note: is it much harder to get a clerkship after being out of law school for a year?

I did vote to stay, but it was a weak vote! I think the right choice for you depends on which school accepts you as a transfer. If it's Yale, I'd probably transfer. If it's CLS or NYU, I probably wouldn't.

As for clerking after working, that's definitely a possibility, particularly for district court clerkships. In fact, some of the more competitive districts (ND Cal is the most notable example) are filled with judges who prefer to hire clerks with at least a year or two of legal work experience. But COA clerkships are generally harder to get if you're not coming right out of school. The vast majority of COA clerks are either directly out of school or have clerked for one year at a district court first. It's definitely possible to get a COA clerkship after working for a year or two first, but it's challenging.

[Mentally_AFK]

Tough situation. As you've observed, Cornell doesn't place particularly well in COA clerkships. On the other hand, the disintegration of the plan has made it increasingly difficult for transfers to land clerkships. With so many COA judges now extending interviews based on three (or even two) semesters of grades, it's hard for a transfer to gain traction at the new school.

You really want to develop a relationship with a professor or two who can pick up the phone and call a judge they know. With hiring shifting earlier in 2L year, a transfer will struggle to find the time to form those relationships. If your goal is to clerk immediately after graduating, you might want to stay at Cornell and leverage the relationships you've already developed with your 1L professors. Yeah, those professors would probably still be wiling to write rec letters for you if you transfer out, but I bet they won't pick up the phone and call on your behalf; they'll likely reserve those favors for the top students who remain at Cornell.

Thanks for the advice. You've more or less exactly summed up my dilemma. Out of curiosity, which way did you end up voting? I assume it's to stay?

Also, random side note: is it much harder to get a clerkship after being out of law school for a year?

I did vote to stay, but it was a weak vote! I think the right choice for you depends on which school accepts you as a transfer. If it's Yale, I'd probably transfer. If it's CLS or NYU, I probably wouldn't.

As for clerking after working, that's definitely a possibility, particularly for district court clerkships. In fact, some of the more competitive districts (ND Cal is the most notable example) are filled with judges who prefer to hire clerks with at least a year or two of legal work experience. But COA clerkships are generally harder to get if you're not coming right out of school. The vast majority of COA clerks are either directly out of school or have clerked for one year at a district court first. It's definitely possible to get a COA clerkship after working for a year or two first, but it's challenging.

Thanks a ton, you're most helpful, though unfortunately I remain conflicted. I think I will just ask the professor for whom I'm RAing, and let him break the tie. Obviously he went to a better school so I'll see what he thinks about transferring up.

[BFrankBYangC]

You are a shoo in at H if you maintain grades. It might be worth transferring to HYS just for the need aid (depends on your situation, but if your family is middle class-ish you can do way better than 5k/yr).