UVA to Penn Forum

[Anonymous User]

Top 25% at UVA; no scholarship. I'm aiming for big law in DC (spouse works there). Alternatively, I'll try for New York (and then Philly). I know how difficult it is to snag work in DC so I'm working my tail off to improve/maintain my grades.

Provided I don't make law review via write-on, I'm thinking about transferring to Penn so I can commute from home (my family lives in the Philly suburbs).

Advice/comments on chances would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[juzam_djinn]

why wouldn't you try ccn?

[Anonymous User]

I plan to throw apps to Columbia, NYU, Georgetown, and Harvard. The real appeal of Penn would be living at home. I'd save some money and get to spend time with family. Also, the train ride from Philly to DC isn't bad.

[peeonyou]

I think you'd be a lock with top 25% and ties as they're peers? But for DC, I'm not sure it's the right move.

Don't mean to hijack.... would around ~10% at UVa be competitive for Harvard, Columbia or Stanford if their #'s coming in weren't up? also, do u need to resubmit the same c+f college stuff that hurt me at some schools?

[peeonyou]

why wouldn't you try ccn?

i don't get how going further from dc will help him get to dc. he's already in the best non-HYS school for his market (yeah, they go deeper into CCN i'm sure, but he's already top 25%).

[juzam_djinn]

from everything i've read, it seems like you'll definitely be in at penn and very likely CN as well, but harvard seems unlikely

why would you transfer down to georgetown though?? seems like general consensus is that it's a bad idea to transfer down, and uva isn't exactly super far from DC and places just as well if not much better than georgetown in dc

[juzam_djinn]

I think you'd be a lock with top 25% and ties as they're peers? But for DC, I'm not sure it's the right move.

Don't mean to hijack.... would around ~10% at UVa be competitive for Harvard, Columbia or Stanford if their #'s coming in weren't up? also, do u need to resubmit the same c+f college stuff that hurt me at some schools?

..? don't assume you'll be ~10% for any school

[bk1]

I'm not sure the 40k or so you'd save from CoL over 2 years is worth the risk here.

[peeonyou]

I think you'd be a lock with top 25% and ties as they're peers? But for DC, I'm not sure it's the right move.

Don't mean to hijack.... would around ~10% at UVa be competitive for Harvard, Columbia or Stanford if their #'s coming in weren't up? also, do u need to resubmit the same c+f college stuff that hurt me at some schools?

..? don't assume you'll be ~10% for any school

oh i'm not assuming. i assumed i'd be bottom 10%. this is reality buddy. i haven't looked into the transfer process much as i like it here, but i have no interest in DC and as charming as the south is and chill the students are at UVa, as soon as i leave, people in the south are slow as hell and i'm just not patient enough to deal with them long term. i'm used to obnoxious fast moving people.

on OP's front, if it's not HYS, I really think transferring is dumb for you given your DC goal. suck up the family thing. you're 2 months from grades not counting anymore, then go home every weekend.

[juzam_djinn]

I think you'd be a lock with top 25% and ties as they're peers? But for DC, I'm not sure it's the right move.

Don't mean to hijack.... would around ~10% at UVa be competitive for Harvard, Columbia or Stanford if their #'s coming in weren't up? also, do u need to resubmit the same c+f college stuff that hurt me at some schools?

..? don't assume you'll be ~10% for any school

oh i'm not assuming. i assumed i'd be bottom 10%. this is reality buddy. i haven't looked into the transfer process much as i like it here, but i have no interest in DC and as charming as the south is and chill the students are at UVa, as soon as i leave, people in the south are slow as hell and i'm just not patient enough to deal with them long term. i'm used to obnoxious fast moving people.

on OP's front, if it's not HYS, I really think transferring is dumb for you given your DC goal. suck up the family thing. you're 2 months from grades not counting anymore, then go home every weekend.

well in that case we will be direct competitors in this transfer game; i have no idea how c+f will affect you but I suspect you won't even have to submit it
people say top 10% from mvp has a shot at hs

however, it seems like this year the transfer competition will be fierce. don't know if they will take 2 people from the same school in the same rank...and then there will probably be even higher ranked people applying for spots...i'd say it's not looking as good as prev years

[peeonyou]

I think you'd be a lock with top 25% and ties as they're peers? But for DC, I'm not sure it's the right move.

Don't mean to hijack.... would around ~10% at UVa be competitive for Harvard, Columbia or Stanford if their #'s coming in weren't up? also, do u need to resubmit the same c+f college stuff that hurt me at some schools?

..? don't assume you'll be ~10% for any school

oh i'm not assuming. i assumed i'd be bottom 10%. this is reality buddy. i haven't looked into the transfer process much as i like it here, but i have no interest in DC and as charming as the south is and chill the students are at UVa, as soon as i leave, people in the south are slow as hell and i'm just not patient enough to deal with them long term. i'm used to obnoxious fast moving people.

on OP's front, if it's not HYS, I really think transferring is dumb for you given your DC goal. suck up the family thing. you're 2 months from grades not counting anymore, then go home every weekend.

well in that case we will be direct competitors in this transfer game; i have no idea how c+f will affect you but I suspect you won't even have to submit it
people say top 10% from mvp has a shot at hs

however, it seems like this year the transfer competition will be fierce. don't know if they will take 2 people from the same school in the same rank...and then there will probably be even higher ranked people applying for spots...i'd say it's not looking as good as prev years

well i'd rather take S or H, but i assume those are out. But is ~top 10% safe for Columbia?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Can someone elaborate on the risks of transferring to Penn? I was under the impression that D.C. didn't care about ties-- would transferring hurt me in interviews?

[bk1]

OP here. Can someone elaborate on the risks of transferring to Penn? I was under the impression that D.C. didn't care about ties-- would transferring hurt me in interviews?

Transferring isn't going to help you from UVA to Penn.

[Wholigan]

OP here. Can someone elaborate on the risks of transferring to Penn? I was under the impression that D.C. didn't care about ties-- would transferring hurt me in interviews?

I think it would be hard for anyone to answer with a high degree of certainty since this is not a common transfer. However, transfers from T1 and T2 schools to Penn have done reasonably well getting jobs in DC, so if you can articulate a good reason for transferring my own opinion would be that it will neither help nor hurt you.

I don't think this would be seen the same as someone transferring out of a school's home market (Like USC/UCLA --> East Coast T14) and then looking for work in the home market. UVA and Penn are essentially the same distance from DC. Of course you'll find more UVA lawyers in DC, due to larger class size and more selection into NYC from Penn. The only potential risk I could think of is that some UVA grad might hold the transfer against you. I don't know how likely that is to happen.

[Uncle.Joe]

Unless your set on philly (which you aren't) it would be hard to explain transfering to Penn at OCI. Honestly, it would raise weirdness red flags.

The thing is that you will be asked about it in every interview. If you transfer to H obviously not a complicated answer but a lateral transfer raises more questions.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Can someone elaborate on the risks of transferring to Penn? I was under the impression that D.C. didn't care about ties-- would transferring hurt me in interviews?

I think it would be hard for anyone to answer with a high degree of certainty since this is not a common transfer. However, transfers from T1 and T2 schools to Penn have done reasonably well getting jobs in DC, so if you can articulate a good reason for transferring my own opinion would be that it will neither help nor hurt you.

I don't think this would be seen the same as someone transferring out of a school's home market (Like USC/UCLA --> East Coast T14) and then looking for work in the home market. UVA and Penn are essentially the same distance from DC. Of course you'll find more UVA lawyers in DC, due to larger class size and more selection into NYC from Penn. The only potential risk I could think of is that some UVA grad might hold the transfer against you. I don't know how likely that is to happen.

Yeah, my (uneducated) guess would be that it doesn't help or hurt. I want to be fully confident of that though before making the move.

[TheZoid]

Saving on COL would be nice, but I think it's worth considering the fact that you've (presumably) worked hard to get good grades at UVA, and if you transfer to Penn you're wiping out that GPA. Obviously you're a smart person and can probably repeat at Penn, but who the hell ever knows for sure in law school, and you wouldn't want your grades to drop and have that affect you down the line for clerking/lateraling or whatever else they might matter for.

[bk1]

Yeah, my (uneducated) guess would be that it doesn't help or hurt. I want to be fully confident of that though before making the move.

I definitely think it could hurt. As noted above you would have to explain it in every interview which would detract from your ability to talk about more relevant things. UVA alums might hold it against you. Moreover, you can't be sure that your top X% at UVA will be treated like top X% at Penn. While that is likely, when they are there to see a bunch of Penn students, your UVA GPA might throw them off.

This just seems foolish overall, imo. It might not hurt but you're taking a decent risk for little to no upside.

[Wholigan]

I will just add two more things.

First, I think that if you are just doing this to save the $40k or however much you will save by living with your family, I don't think it's a good idea. You seem to be set up well for a good start to your career, and even if the risk is small, risking the quality of your career is not going to be worth it for $40k. Also, it will be kind of a hassle to commute in from the suburbs to Penn. Most people who already go to Penn whose parents live in the suburbs still get an apartment near school even though they could save by living at home.

That said, if you have other reasons for transferring, I don't think it's going to be a 10 minute conversation and a red flag in interviews. Yes, you will be asked about it. But if your answer is something like "Penn was my dream school and I didn't get in the first time, but I was fortunate enough to be admitted as a transfer," or "I'm committed to working in DC and I might spend the rest of my life in a different city from my family, so I wanted to spend these last two years of law school close to my family," I don't think you will be asked further questions about it.

[run26.2]

I will just add two more things.

First, I think that if you are just doing this to save the $40k or however much you will save by living with your family, I don't think it's a good idea. You seem to be set up well for a good start to your career, and even if the risk is small, risking the quality of your career is not going to be worth it for $40k. Also, it will be kind of a hassle to commute in from the suburbs to Penn. Most people who already go to Penn whose parents live in the suburbs still get an apartment near school even though they could save by living at home.

That said, if you have other reasons for transferring, I don't think it's going to be a 10 minute conversation and a red flag in interviews. Yes, you will be asked about it. But if your answer is something like "Penn was my dream school and I didn't get in the first time, but I was fortunate enough to be admitted as a transfer," or "I'm committed to working in DC and I might spend the rest of my life in a different city from my family, so I wanted to spend these last two years of law school close to my family," I don't think you will be asked further questions about it.

I think that 40K is a sufficiently compelling reason to transfer, and I also think an answer like the bolded above would head off further questions at OCI. I am actually of the mind that this doesn't hurt you much. Transfers for family purposes are perfectly understandable. Moreover, the hiring attorneys will be more or less comparing apples to apples when they consider your grades. In other words, given the numerical similarity of the incoming class profiles, I think they will probably think top 25% at UVA is approximately equal to top 25% at Penn. But when a student transfers from Tulane or SMU, that might be more difficult to translate.

Someone made this same move a couple of years ago, though they weren't focusing on DC. You might try reaching out to Penn if you get in and seeing if they'll put you in touch with a transfer that might have information relevant to your situation.

[peeonyou]

I'm considering it for Columbia - have grades a little higher than OP for NYC.... For Philly, it's smart but for DC it seems random.

There's also the fear that as an adult you need to go to school close to your family. How can the firm trust you'll be in DC for life? It's a minor concern, but idk why open the door when there's so many applicants and how impressive is top 25% at UVa really? It's really good, don't get me wrong but there are almost a 100 people in UVa with that boat, and there's so many other schools. Why create red flags you don't need to?

[run26.2]

I'm considering it for Columbia - have grades a little higher than OP for NYC.... For Philly, it's smart but for DC it seems random.

There's also the fear that as an adult you need to go to school close to your family. How can the firm trust you'll be in DC for life? It's a minor concern, but idk why open the door when there's so many applicants and how impressive is top 25% at UVa really? It's really good, don't get me wrong but there are almost a 100 people in UVa with that boat, and there's so many other schools. Why create red flags you don't need to?

Firms don't really expect you to be there for life. 3-5 years, maybe. To me, it seems completely reasonable to transfer to a peer school that has nearly equal placing power into the same market for family reasons, especially if it is your last chance to do so for awhile. I think hiring partners would think along those lines too.

If there's any danger, in my mind, it is the assumption that they have equal placement power into DC. The reason I think that is largely anecdotal. I transferred to Penn, as a student in the top 15% at a T25, and received multiple offers in DC. Almost all of the people I know who targetted DC (transfers and otherwise) received at least one offer there.

Also, unless there is something I'm missing, I probably would not transfer in your case. You should have little trouble getting a job in NYC if you keep your rank.

[peeonyou]

I'm considering it for Columbia - have grades a little higher than OP for NYC.... For Philly, it's smart but for DC it seems random.

There's also the fear that as an adult you need to go to school close to your family. How can the firm trust you'll be in DC for life? It's a minor concern, but idk why open the door when there's so many applicants and how impressive is top 25% at UVa really? It's really good, don't get me wrong but there are almost a 100 people in UVa with that boat, and there's so many other schools. Why create red flags you don't need to?

Firms don't really expect you to be there for life. 3-5 years, maybe. To me, it seems completely reasonable to transfer to a peer school that has nearly equal placing power into the same market for family reasons, especially if it is your last chance to do so for awhile. I think hiring partners would think along those lines too.

If there's any danger, in my mind, it is the assumption that they have equal placement power into DC. The reason I think that is largely anecdotal. I transferred to Penn, as a student in the top 15% at a T25, and received multiple offers in DC. Almost all of the people I know who targetted DC (transfers and otherwise) received at least one offer there.

Also, unless there is something I'm missing, I probably would not transfer in your case. You should have little trouble getting a job in NYC if you keep your rank.

i feel like columbia gives me more flexibility grade wise?

would also have op's reasons + coa wouldn't be substantially more.

[run26.2]

i feel like columbia gives me more flexibility grade wise?

would also have op's reasons + coa wouldn't be substantially more.

If you're talking about hiring via OCI, that will be based on your grades at your old school. So there is no real benefit there.

Two factors that you should consider are the number and quality of employers you will be in front of at each school. I think there are more employers at Columbia's OCI, but with UVA's pre-select system, a person in your position may end up with the same number of interviews as a transfer at Columbia. Moreover, you may be more likely to get V5 or V10 firms with your grades at UVA. You should compare the experiences of people who did transfer and those who had the opportunity, but passed on it.

As I said earlier, if you have family reasons for transferring, I think those are fine.

[peeonyou]

i feel like columbia gives me more flexibility grade wise?

would also have op's reasons + coa wouldn't be substantially more.

If you're talking about hiring via OCI, that will be based on your grades at your old school. So there is no real benefit there.

Two factors that you should consider are the number and quality of employers you will be in front of at each school. I think there are more employers at Columbia's OCI, but with UVA's pre-select system, a person in your position may end up with the same number of interviews as a transfer at Columbia. Moreover, you may be more likely to get V5 or V10 firms with your grades at UVA. You should compare the experiences of people who did transfer and those who had the opportunity, but passed on it.

As I said earlier, if you have family reasons for transferring, I think those are fine.

even with high grades i can't say i'm really confident. there are a lot of 2l's who are no offered who weren't bottom of the class, and some have highish grades.