Transfer Scam Forum

[dextermorgan]

FULL DISCLOSURE:
ME - Currently a 1L at Maryland...

Full scholarship with additional GI Bill to pay for housing expenses.

I am attempting to transfer this year.

If you don’t have a scholarship and you aren’t at a top 10 school, then you need to try to transfer.

If you have a scholarship and are at a top 50 school, you need to stay put.

(I wrote this while in International Law...whatever..)

[mephistopheles]

FULL DISCLOSURE:
ME - Currently a 1L at Maryland...

Full scholarship with additional GI Bill to pay for housing expenses.

I am attempting to transfer this year.

If you don’t have a scholarship and you aren’t at a top 10 school, then you need to try to transfer.

If you have a scholarship and are at a top 50 school, you need to stay put.

(I wrote this while in International Law...whatever..)

woah, bro. stop being so damn hostile.

[3|ink]

FULL DISCLOSURE:
ME - Currently a 1L at Maryland with a 3.31 after one semester. Full scholarship with additional GI Bill to pay for housing expenses. However, I’m scared, and unless you are a golden child from YSH or another T14, you should be too.

I am attempting to transfer this year. I would like to get into either GW, Notre Dame, UCI & UCLA. I know what you are thinking...I don’t have a chance with my GPA. Well, I bet you I do with at least two of them, because everyone is hurting, and law school in general is just a massive Ponzi scheme. All of those schools, except Notre Dame, will be free for me (GI Bill). Still, I have a tough road ahead of me, but I have to try because law schools are a messy business.

Overall, I have figured out that outside the top 20 to 30 law schools it is a complete mess, and even among those top schools there are some major problems just over the horizon.

LAW SCHOOLS RANKED 30-100
Kids are pulling hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans for a 50% chance (seems to be a good LST average of law schools ranked 30-100) of getting a job that pays less than $60k a year (my guestimate from LST). Soon people will figure it out, and like any economic bubble, it will burst leaving schools without students willing to pay...then bankruptcy.

LAW SCHOOLS RANKED 1-30
These schools, except for a few, have opened their doors to ever-larger classes, diluting their school’s reputation. As lower rank schools go under, everyone else will be concentrated at a few “elite” schools. What happens when everyone is elite? No one will be elite...except maybe YSH and a few others.

LAW SCHOOLS RANKED EVERYWHERE ELSE?
Welcome to the Twilight Zone. You better have a sizable scholarship or you will be spending your life paying off student loans. Think the government will bail you out? Hahaha They are just as broke as you!

FACTS:
1) US NEWS RANKINGS are CRAP!!! US News is part of the problem and encourages law schools to lie about employment prospects. If you want good law school rankings, go to LST.
2) LAW SCHOOLS are CRAP!!! Over the past two decades law schools (like all colleges) have increased their student bodies and ratcheted up tuition into the stratosphere. They have done this while pretending the legal market is growing at the same break-neck speed. It’s not. Read any good law blog out there. Above the Law is one of my favorites, so is Law School Scam.
3) US GOVERNMENT, CONGRESS and SALLIE MAE are CRAP!!! The new bubble is education. Forget the housing bubble, the dot-com bubble, and all the rest. This bubble starts with the government and educators telling everyone they deserve higher education because it will bring them more success in life. Loan lenders love it! They petition Congress to make student loans non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. Schools love it. They ratchet up their costs since lenders have security to lend. Congress, the president and loan lenders claim all of this education will help the next generation. It is crap and a myth. More education does not mean more money. It means being forever in debt. RISE ABOVE!
4) LAW SCHOOLS are DESPERATE!!! Plunging applications and ever-growing student classes. Law School Scam blog writes a lot about this. Law school applications are collapsing, and it is the smart kids that are staying away. Law Schools are desperate...this is where there is some good news.


THE GOOD NEWS!!!
Forget everyone who claims the same standards apply today. I think that if you are in the top 20% you will be treated like those who were in the top 10% a few years ago. Schools need to fill their classes. They don’t really care about their reputations, they need money. This means you!

If you don’t have a scholarship and you aren’t at a top 10 school, then you need to try to transfer.

If you have a scholarship and are at a top 50 school, you need to stay put. Unless you have a 4.0 and are confident you can keep that up at YSH, you will get no where in life. I can’t wait to hear all the “experts” who think differently try to explain this away. Times, they are a changin’. What we are looking at is a classic financial bubble.

Schools aren’t playing by real rules anymore. They are dancing in a fairytale. Sure, YSH, and a few others will survive. However, the rest of us are screwed. What you need to do is get smart and claw your way to the top. It is a Ponzi scheme. You don’t want to be left standing when everyone else finds a chair.

Save money, get into the best school, and forget school loyalty. Trust me, they don’t care about you either!!!

(I wrote this while in International Law...whatever..)

No offense intended, but you need to drop any hope of transferring anywhere. It's not going to happen. I'm sorry dude.

MD isn't a terrible school, but you should really work on that GPA.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

You crapped up a good point with a bunch of insanity.

FWIW, it is incredibly easy to transfer right now. I know two people who transferred from OKC law to GW. They were both outside the top 1/3. I know someone who transferred from SMU to GULC. They were below median. I know someone who transferred from Tulsa Law to Columbia the year before. They were outside the top 20%.

Transfers pay the bills and don't fuck up their USNWR.

[3|ink]

You crapped up a good point with a bunch of insanity.

FWIW, it is incredibly easy to transfer right now. I know two people who transferred from OKC law to GW. They were both outside the top 1/3. I know someone who transferred from SMU to GULC. They were below median. I know someone who transferred from Tulsa Law to Columbia the year before. They were outside the top 20%.

Transfers pay the bills and don't fuck up their USNWR.

I'm skeptical of this shit. They want to take in students who are well off because they are more likely to do well, therefore less likely to end up on their list of alumni without jobs.

[Tiago Splitter]

You crapped up a good point with a bunch of insanity.

FWIW, it is incredibly easy to transfer right now. I know two people who transferred from OKC law to GW. They were both outside the top 1/3. I know someone who transferred from SMU to GULC. They were below median. I know someone who transferred from Tulsa Law to Columbia the year before. They were outside the top 20%.

Transfers pay the bills and don't fuck up their USNWR.

Don't believe everything sent anonymously to Paul Campos.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

You crapped up a good point with a bunch of insanity.

FWIW, it is incredibly easy to transfer right now. I know two people who transferred from OKC law to GW. They were both outside the top 1/3. I know someone who transferred from SMU to GULC. They were below median. I know someone who transferred from Tulsa Law to Columbia the year before. They were outside the top 20%.

Transfers pay the bills and don't fuck up their USNWR.

Don't believe everything sent anonymously to Paul Campos.

Two people who went to my (large) high school and two people who went to my university. Not sure if they know who Paul Campos is. They had decent resumes, so maybe the schools extrapolated from their decent grades and decent resume that they were likely to be employed.. Maybe they (at least in the case of GW) just need warm bodies..

Does anyone know how many transfers the T20 accepts? I'm not sure, but last I checked there were like 300 from GW, GULC, and Columbia alone.

[shock259]

You crapped up a good point with a bunch of insanity.

FWIW, it is incredibly easy to transfer right now. I know two people who transferred from OKC law to GW. They were both outside the top 1/3. I know someone who transferred from SMU to GULC. They were below median. I know someone who transferred from Tulsa Law to Columbia the year before. They were outside the top 20%.

Transfers pay the bills and don't fuck up their USNWR.

Not calling you a liar (especially since I know you IRL), but I'm deeply skeptical of that CLS info. Perhaps there were remarkable other considerations or the person was exaggerating or something. All of the TLS data collected over the years shows that kind of transfer is impossible. I've posted this before, but here's this year data: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=186555 - scanning down the accepted column for Columbia, everyone has WAY better grades than top 20% at a TTTT (is that what Tulsa is?).

I just pulled a random TTT person: he/she was in the top 3% at a TTT, applied to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, Chicago(ED), Berkeley, UVA, Duke, Northwestern, Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Emory. Only acceptance was at Emory. This is much more normal.

Also, the comments about transfers paying the bills and not fucking up USNWR are true. But that doesn't mean that transfers don't get benefits from going. I can say personally that there is very little chance I would have an SA lined up if I didn't transfer to CLS. And every CLS transfer I know has an SA. Many of us came from schools where we would also probably not have SAs (lower T1s).

Transfer <3

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

You crapped up a good point with a bunch of insanity.

FWIW, it is incredibly easy to transfer right now. I know two people who transferred from OKC law to GW. They were both outside the top 1/3. I know someone who transferred from SMU to GULC. They were below median. I know someone who transferred from Tulsa Law to Columbia the year before. They were outside the top 20%.

Transfers pay the bills and don't fuck up their USNWR.

Not calling you a liar (especially since I know you IRL), but I'm deeply skeptical of that CLS info. Perhaps there were remarkable other considerations or the person was exaggerating or something. All of the TLS data collected over the years shows that kind of transfer is impossible. I've posted this before, but here's this year data: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=186555 - scanning down the accepted column for Columbia, everyone has WAY better grades than top 20% at a TTTT (is that what Tulsa is?).

I just pulled a random TTT person: he/she was in the top 3% at a TTT, applied to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, Chicago(ED), Berkeley, UVA, Duke, Northwestern, Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Emory. Only acceptance was at Emory. This is much more normal.

Also, the comments about transfers paying the bills and not fucking up USNWR are true. But that doesn't mean that transfers don't get benefits from going. I can say personally that there is very little chance I would have an SA lined up if I didn't transfer to CLS. And every CLS transfer I know has an SA. Many of us came from schools where we would also probably not have SAs (lower T1s).

Transfer <3

Hey man.

From your data, it looks pretty easy to transfer to me. Maybe I read it wrong or was looking at the wrong data. If so I'm real sorry. Pretty much everyone on your list was accepted. First off, your list is obviously a very small portion of the recent transfer class (maybe I looked at the wrong one -- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... Hc&gid=8-- but I only saw 20 or so) There were like 30 times that many people transfer (completely made that up). Also, the list only shows three students who were worse than top 25%, and contains no students who were worse than top 30%. Two of the three students outside the top 25% went to TTT schools, and all of them were accepted at T1 schools. The other dude was TT (Hofstra, which is really TTTT); he applied to three schools, two of which were Columbia and NYU, and was accepted to Fordham. Pretty good with top 30% from Hofstra.

As for mis amigos, they are very real people. Dunno what to say. I do agree with you that transferring can be a great thing. That is why I posted-- people should transfer, and it is easier to transfer now that it was before. I mean think about it. Ten years ago I think transfer classes were like 70-80% smaller. There is a reason schools are making this big change, and learning about this can provide a real practical benefit for students. I mean, you may or may not be Exhibit A here. I would guess from you position in the thread that you had really great grades and would have secured your T1 - CLS transfer back in eighties. Outstanding. But I do think it is easier to transfer than people think, especially if you have a resume and letters that make you look upstanding, employable, etc..

EDIT- one reason people may say they had top 3% grades from schools like Tulsa (which I think is like TT/TTT) is because they are surrounded by their new friends at GULC and have a slight inferiority complex. I think it is likely that many transfers may hide the ball on their stats, just like 1Ls all over the country lie about scholly's/LSATs

EDIT part duex-- can't link to google doc, the data I was looking at was your chart for 2012, not all years. I looked at '12 cuz it is easier now than ever, and that is my point.

[bowser]

But a rich kid probably wouldn't join the army.. so you're a self made millionaire? why attend law school to begin with?

Stats show that wealthier people are over represented in the armed forces. HTH.

This cannot possibly be true, unless it's some kind of statistical abnormality.

[UAX09]

It's probably easier this cycle to get into TT and lower T1 schools since those schools are shrinking classes and need revenue from transfer students. For T14 schools, I think it will be more difficult. Lots of people already want to transfer to T14 schools, and the demand for T14 schools is greater in this economy.

I don't know about other schools, but in my school (WUSTL) the transfer class is significantly smaller. Last year, we accepted 41 transfer students. This year (2012-2013), there are 23 transfer students. Also, the incoming 1L class is approximately 201 students, down from 240 students last year. WUSTL is making an effort to shrink 1L and transfer classes. Sure, WUSTL could accept lots of transfer students in order to generate revenue, but that would be stupid. If those transfer students can't get jobs, the school hurts in terms of placement scores and ultimately, the U.S. News rankings.

It would not be in the interests of any school to accept any below median transfer students. Students with below median scores do not stand a chance at OCI, let alone getting an interview. Sure, below median students do get jobs, but why would a school risk accepting a below median student who may not get a job after graduation? Lower tier schools will have to sacrifice standards to generate revenue. The elite schools, however, have billions of dollars in money to support smaller class sizes and won't need larger transfer classes.

Switching topics, military personnel tend to be middle class folks. It's a shame that some people view the military as a job of last resort. Heck, I hate it went people say that JAG is easy to get, comparable to an 18 year old trying to enlist. Also, Harvard ranks first outside the military academies in the number of Medal of Honor recipients. The upper classes have traditionally been very active in warfare. If joining the military is view as a profession for unemployable and stupid losers, don't be surprised when people in the military do stupid shit or give stupid advice to the President that gets us into two wars.

[Sheffield]

Chances are good that I am missing something pertinent here.

Let’s say you have a 162/3.4 trying to get into school “A” that requires a 170.3.7. . . you are rejected. You go to school “B” and then ask for a transfer to school “A.” School “A” now accepts you. . .they receive your $$$ while simultaneously skirting your flawed stats (thus, no negative affect on their USNWR ranking). Seem like that scheme could work. No?

[fatduck]

But a rich kid probably wouldn't join the army.. so you're a self made millionaire? why attend law school to begin with?

Stats show that wealthier people are over represented in the armed forces. HTH.

This cannot possibly be true, unless it's some kind of statistical abnormality.

it's true, but probably explained by the fact that you need a high-school education to enlist.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Chances are good that I am missing something pertinent here.

Let’s say you have a 162/3.4 trying to get into school “A” that requires a 170.3.7. . . you are rejected. You go to school “B” and then ask for a transfer to school “A.” School “A” now accepts you. . .they receive your $$$ while simultaneously skirting your flawed stats (thus, no negative affect on their USNWR ranking). Seem like that scheme could work. No?

This is absolutely what is happening. Someone had a thread a while back that showed how this transferring thing was blowing up. Some schools (FSU was one I remember) accepted over 100 transfers a year which resulted in 3L classes made up of 33% transfers.

[UAX09]

Sheffield, your example is accurate. Schools have always accepted transfer students as a way to obtain excellent students without being negatively affected by their LSAT and GPA scores.

The competition to transfer at T14 schools will only increase as students try to transfer to those schools. The supply for transfer spots will likely remain stagnant at T14 will likely remain constant but the demand will increase, hence the increased competition. Schools like Georgetown could in theory decrease 1L class sizes by two hundred students or more to obtain Harvard level LSAT scores and mitigate the decreased 1L revenue by accepting two hundred transfers. However, that would not be in Georgetown's best interest to accept below median transfers as obtaining employment is much harder for below median students.

Also, the elite T14 schools are usually ridiculously rich with 5 billion dollar plus endowments. Georgetown needs the transfers since it is a poor school among the T14. Schools which have large endowments will improve in this economy. They can keep standards the same without worrying about revenue.

The bottom line is if you are a top student, transferring is always an option. If you are around median or below median, don't expect transferring to be much easier this cycle. It doesn't make sense for any school to admit median transfer students when it will hurt them in terms of job placement.

[Tiago Splitter]

Chances are good that I am missing something pertinent here.

Let’s say you have a 162/3.4 trying to get into school “A” that requires a 170.3.7. . . you are rejected. You go to school “B” and then ask for a transfer to school “A.” School “A” now accepts you. . .they receive your $$$ while simultaneously skirting your flawed stats (thus, no negative affect on their USNWR ranking). Seem like that scheme could work. No?

This is absolutely what is happening. Someone had a thread a while back that showed how this transferring thing was blowing up. Some schools (FSU was one I remember) accepted over 100 transfers a year which resulted in 3L classes made up of 33% transfers.

LOL. Look, all of the information is right here.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/release/ ... fault.aspx

Columbia took 46, FSU took 57.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Chances are good that I am missing something pertinent here.

Let’s say you have a 162/3.4 trying to get into school “A” that requires a 170.3.7. . . you are rejected. You go to school “B” and then ask for a transfer to school “A.” School “A” now accepts you. . .they receive your $$$ while simultaneously skirting your flawed stats (thus, no negative affect on their USNWR ranking). Seem like that scheme could work. No?

This is absolutely what is happening. Someone had a thread a while back that showed how this transferring thing was blowing up. Some schools (FSU was one I remember) accepted over 100 transfers a year which resulted in 3L classes made up of 33% transfers.

LOL. Look, all of the information is right here.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/release/ ... fault.aspx

Columbia took 46, FSU took 57.

First off LOL, 46 and 57 is a fuck-load. You are right that I was wrong, but only technically. Also, here is your boy campos' post on transferring that lists FSU at 75 or so for the prior year

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... -game.html

I don't want to argue the point, but there is a lot of data that suggests transferring has blown up in the last few years.

[Tiago Splitter]

First off LOL, 46 and 57 is a fuck-load. You are right that I was wrong, but only technically. Also, here is your boy campos' post on transferring that lists FSU at 75 or so for the prior year

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... -game.html

I don't want to argue the point, but there is a lot of data that suggests transferring has blown up in the last few years.

I'm sure transferring is easier than it used to be, which I suppose brings up the question of why you are still at your school.

As for Campos' post, he took an anecdote from someone who emailed him and posted it as unquestioned fact. And his post doesn't really further your point given that CLS and FSU both are taking far fewer transfers now than they did when Campos collected his data.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

First off LOL, 46 and 57 is a fuck-load. You are right that I was wrong, but only technically. Also, here is your boy campos' post on transferring that lists FSU at 75 or so for the prior year

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... -game.html

I don't want to argue the point, but there is a lot of data that suggests transferring has blown up in the last few years.

I'm sure transferring is easier than it used to be, which I suppose brings up the question of why you are still at your school.

I want to work here and I'm unburdened by the insecurites that probably led you to Columbia, but now I'm just assuming shit. Forgive me.

I see that you go to Columbia and are determined to defend your school.

[UVAIce]

There is so much wrong in this thread that I don't know where to start.

Wait, yes I do: why on earth would you transfer into GWU!? You're not exactly getting a big boost in your chances at employment and your GI Bill will most likely not cover the full cost of attendance at GWU (Go private university).

Second, Campos is becoming a worthless demagogue. Occasionally he makes some good points, but lately he has been full of himself.

Go back to feeling sorry about yourself for going to law school.

[shock259]

But I don't really disagree with anything you said, sir Lord McDuff. Think we are mostly on the same page here. I guess just don't care much about the T10 schools that accept transfers because most (or all) of their transfers get good jobs. Outside of that, it seems definitely possible/probable that T1s/T2s are taking more transfers to make up for the revenues lost by the declining number of applicants through the regular admission process (and you may only be putting yourself in a marginally better place by making that transfer).

Edit: Also, I just read Campos' article. The CLS "stats" he cites are one guy's anecdote, and a guy with an agenda. LST has 94% of Columbia's grads in full-time legal jobs (including transfers). To say that only 60% of the class has a job is factually wrong. And that seriously calls into question his "stats" about transfers.

We're doing just fine over here.

[RodneyBoonfield]

How come like 99% of people who get called out for their post on this forum refer to some line about already having money / not needing a job? Are there just a lot of dumb trust fund babies trying to impress daddy by going to law school? But a rich kid probably wouldn't join the army.. so you're a self made millionaire? why attend law school to begin with?

Hooray for class envy

[Sheffield]

Given our marketplace culture I do not understand how lower ranked schools will survive . . . they probably will, but logically I do not see how. If their applications are significantly down and their outbound transfers are substantially up, how do they stay open?

One topic I have yet to see on TLS regards Law School Closings, how would you like to be caught in that awful scenario? Does the ABA have any sort of mechanism in place to alert students if a law school is potentially on a real fiscal cliff? (My definition of mechanism is an annual review of the school’s P&L statement)

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Just found out the bar exam costs $700.00. Too upset to think about anything else.

[keg411]

CLS used to take like 80 transfers (pre/early recession). Starting in 2010/2011-ish they cut way back because of complaints from their regular students -- there was a huge thread on here about it too ("transfers are taking our jobs!"). So 46 seems about right for them.

And yes, transferring outside of the T14* is stupid unless you have connections to the market or need to be in the market for some reason and have the means other than loans to pay sticker for two years. But it's not THAT much easier to transfer to the T14 unless you have the grades. Check out last year's transfer cycle thread for reference.

*Really T12 because the GULC transfer class is huge and Cornell doesn't let transfers do OCI so basically no one does it.